Hoops22 Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Context does not show this. It doesn't boad well for you to shout "Context, context, context" and then not only not offering any context that changes what we bring up but you yourslef add things to the verse that the verse never says or even implies. This is a horrible attempt of a rebuttal.Sorry I the text simply disagrees with your interpretation. Judas was one of Jesus. We cannot save ourselves.WE can keep oursleves saved if we follow Christ. Do you suppose that once your confess Jesus you can be disobediant and break all the commandments because, "hey they are just suggestions".You cannot even tell a lie and expect to be saved as Revelations written by John delcare such.Religious double talk. If the only variable is your works, then that is what saves you. Lds' zeal to be embraced by mcism is backing you into corners and twisting you into knots. Why not just come right out and state plainly what you believe: that your works are what save you.
Vance Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 You have to look at the phrase "Son of" and understand it how the Jews would have taken it.ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And to help us understand "how the Jews would have taken it", let's look at some usage of the phrase in scripture, shall we?Matt 4:21, Matt 10:2-3, Matt 23:25, Mark 2:14, Mark 6:3, to name a few.Blah, blah blah,This phrase show Jesus' complete diety in that He and the Father are the very same, One True, Creator God.True, but that doesn't mean that they are the same being. No people has ever sizen about thier religion.Not sure what that means. The most portentous fact about man is what thier concept of God found in their heart. A god begotten in the shadows of a follen heart will quite naturally be no true likeness of the true God.A true statement to be sure. The god created by the Hellenized theologians of the 2nd and 3rd centuries has not true likeness of the true God.By bring theee Almighty down to man's level and making like unto us is erroneous and comes from within the imaginations of a fallen people. The idolatrous assumes that God is like man and makes him a exaulted man. Jesus isn't an exalted man?
Vance Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 What did Jesus (whose teachings are preeminent) teach about His relationship to God, the Father?Matt. 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name. Matt. 7:21
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Not only that but he teaches a seperation of wills...Matt 2639 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. And Mind...Matt. 24: 36, 50 36
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Religious double talk. If the only variable is your works, then that is what saves you. Lds' zeal to be embraced by mcism is backing you into corners and twisting you into knots. Why not just come right out and state plainly what you believe: that your works are what save you.I guess Jesus didn't get the memo. SOrry but your logic is faulty. Just because works are required doesn't mean that are works are what saves us. Our faith doesn't save us either but it is required.We must have faith and works or our faith is dead, and once we have those 2 then we quilify for grace and grace is what saves us.Our works alone don't save us. Just as faith alone doesn't save you.
DLClark Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Please continue to the next verse rather than remove it from context.Eph 2 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Beleivers need to WALK the walk rather than talk the talk. It takes much more than grace to be saved.You got it, great. We must be a believer first before works come into play. Eph. 2:109 tells us how we are saved. Salvation is a gift to us from God and received by faith alone in Christ. Then, after being saved we are told to put our salvation into practice. A person can not work that which he does not have. Also, notice that verse says we must be "in Christ" before we can work out or exhibit our salvation through good works. Notice also, that 1 Cor. 12:13 tells us how we become apart of Christ. At salvation the Holy Spirit placs us into the body of Christ. Notice what Titus says about good works. Titus 2:144 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.KJVSalvation first then good works.Titus 3:88 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed [/u](past tense)in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.KJVSalvation first then good works.Notice that a believer in Christ is asked to do good works. Works do not save us to be with God in heaven in the third heaven. Works come after we are already saved by faith alone in Christ and gurantee us a place with God in heaven. Here is what Paul says. Acts 16:3131 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,KJVQ. Will a person be saved afater they believe as Paul says they will here in this verse? Many other verse say the very same thing. DLC
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 Question frirst: At what point was Paul saved?Apparenyl Paul wasn't as sure of his salvation as you seem to be...Phil 3 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
DLClark Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Question frirst: At what point was Paul saved?Apparenyl Paul wasn't as sure of his salvation as you seem to be...Phil 3 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. This is a wrong understanding of the text. Paul knew he was saved and would be with God when he died. 2 Cor 5:88 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.KJV2 Tim 4:7-87 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.KJVPhil 1:21-2421 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.KJVContext, context, context please. The context of a passage determines its understanding. Phil 3:10-1210 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.KJVVerses 11-12 express the fact that Paul had not yet attained what he wanted to know from verse 10. Paul is not saying that he was not sure of his salvation. He was saying though that he wanted to understand Christ in a better way. Who can truly say that he knows all there is to know about the One, True, Creator God, Jesus Christ? DLC
DLClark Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 That's not what it means. It means that we cannot ever do enough to be saved, and ultimately, after all we can do, we are saved by grace.When will a person come to know that he has done all he can do in order to be saved by grace?DLC
Zakuska Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Paul said here in Acts 16:31 that when a person believes on Christ he will be saved. If a person believes on Christ will he then be saved as Paul says he will?Acts 16:3131 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,KJVDLCWhat is the will of God that one must do in oder to be saved?DLCJesus gave us the first step after faith... he said...unless a man be born again of both water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
DLClark Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Jesus gave us the first step after faith... he said...unless a man be born again of both water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.Water baptism does not save us nor is it part of he gospel. Here in John 3 water refrs to either the natural birth or the Word of God. John 3:16-18 explains what Jesus was talking about in regards to how we are saved. Faith save us and no faith condemns us. Rom 11:66 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.KJVDLC
DLClark Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Actually, this particular example leads the reader to the conclusion that YHWH was indeed jealous of "another god." Why reveal to humankind a jealousy of nothing more than lifeless idols, carved of stone and wood?Your quotations from Deuteronomy are on the mark, however. By that time, in the evolution of Israelite religion, its prior henotheism had dwindled down to the level of depicting foreign gods as nothing more than evil spirits.But, let's consider Judaism even at that diluted level of henothism. When Jesus is tempted by Satan, the Devil demonstrates godlike powers and godlike abilities to offer great rewards to even God the Son.Had some other contemporary Jew -- say John the Baptist -- prayed to Satan for power over the kingdoms of the earth, could Satan have actually delivered such a supernatural response to wicked supplication?If you say "yes," then I think we must admit that some vestiges of the old Israelite henotheism survived in second temple Judaism.If you say "no," then I will be happy with your answer -- but many Christians will be able to criticize you for downplaying the real dangers of Satanism.UDThe Jews are monothiestic not henotheistic as you say. The Jews did not believe that any other god but the God of the Bible is the real God. Man can call anything a god but that does make it so. All other so-called gods that man have outside of the One, True, Creator God of the Bible are not real gods but ones of man's imaginations. Here is why I say this. Rom 1:18-2518 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.KJVDLC
Zakuska Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Water baptism does not save us nor is it part of he gospel. Here in John 3 water refrs to either the natural birth or the Word of God. John 3:16-18 explains what Jesus was talking about in regards to how we are saved. Faith save us and no faith condemns us. Rom 11:66 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.KJVDLCThat interpretation is a new adulturated evangelical invention of the 21st century. Every single Christian Group of the 1st Century who learned directly from the Apostles themselves interpreted Christs words in John 3:5 as Water Baptism.Peter sure thinks water Baptism is part of the Gospel.1 Peter 8 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: So did the author of Hebrews...Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We need to be washed inside and out. Notice also that the Doctrine of Christ includes 2 Baptisms. (See the Plural right there?)Hebrews 6 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. Paul even uses water baptism as a symbol of death and ressurection.Rom. 6: 4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Col. 2: 12 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Vance Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Water baptism does not save us nor is it part of he gospel. Here in John 3 water refrs to either the natural birth or the Word of God. John 3:16-18 explains what Jesus was talking about in regards to how we are saved. Faith save us and no faith condemns us. Rom 11:66 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.KJVDLCWhat ever dude!1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:I can hardly wait to see your contortions of how this verse doesn't mean what it clearly and plainly says.
Zakuska Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 What ever dude!1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:I can hardly wait to see your contortions of how this verse doesn't mean what it clearly and plainly says.Hey lance: [down low buddy]
Vance Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Now DL, you've fallen right in line with the silly Evangelicals who claim that Mormons have made God in man's image, when in fact we simply prefer a literal reading of the passages that state that man is made in God's image.Of course you missed "the uncorruptible God" and the comparison to "corruptible man", you know like the corruptible gods of Mount Olympus? And NOT like the uncorruptible yet embodied in flesh and bones God of the Luke 24:39!!!You missed that part didn't you!
DLClark Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 That interpretation is a new adulturated evangelical invention of the 21st century. Every single Christian Group of the 1st Century who learned directly from the Apostles themselves interpreted Christs words in John 3:5 as Water Baptism.Peter sure thinks water Baptism is part of the Gospel.1 Peter 8 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: So does the author of Hebrews.So did the author of Hebrews...Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We need to be washed inside and out. Notice also that the Doctrine of Christ includes 2 Baptisms. (See the Plural right there?)Hebrews 6 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. Paul even uses water baptism as a symbol of death and ressurection.Rom. 6: 4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Col. 2: 12 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. I never heard of a passage in the Bible 1 Peter 8. What version of the Bible has this verse? If you meant 1 Peter 3:20 then OK. Context, context, context. Read the 1 Peter passage and tell my water baptism is unable to do? the tell me what Pater says baptism really is? Also, do you know what types are? 1 Peter 3:20-2120 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:KJVDLC
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 That interpretation is a new adulturated evangelical invention of the 21st century. Every single Christian Group of the 1st Century who learned directly from the Apostles themselves interpreted Christs words in John 3:5 as Water Baptism.Peter sure thinks water Baptism is part of the Gospel.1 Peter 8 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: So did the author of Hebrews...Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We need to be washed inside and out. Notice also that the Doctrine of Christ includes 2 Baptisms. (See the Plural right there?)Hebrews 6 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. Paul even uses water baptism as a symbol of death and ressurection.Rom. 6: 4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Col. 2: 12 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. If it really is so unimportant as DLClark claims, why was Jesus baptised. Why did Jesus say "It is to fulfill all righteousness"?WHy did Peter claims that "even now Baptisim doth now save us"?I reject that Christ was claiming that it was a water birth. If it was a water birth why even mention it. It would be obvious that one needs to be born to be saved. It is obvious from the text that Jesus was not talking about the birth of a baby as that is what Nicodemus thought that was what he was talking about. "Can a man enter the womb a 2nd time?" It was obvious Christ was talking about a water baptism followed by a spiritual baptism or a baptism of fire.
Vance Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 DLC,How was Jesus baptized?Are we to follow His example?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 I never heard of a passage in the Bible 1 Peter 8. What version of the Bible has this verse? If you meant 1 Peter 3:20 then OK. Context, context, context. Read the 1 Peter passage and tell my water baptism is unable to do? the tell me what Pater says baptism really is? Also, do you know what types are? 1 Peter 3:20-2120 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:KJVDLCYes context contex context. Peter is in essance telling us that the earth was baptised. Peter claimed that "Even now doth baptism save us". That the like figure. The like figure of what? The flood of the earth was the baptism of the earth. Tell me how are eight souls saved by water? They were in an ark. Why did Peter say they were saved by water? You have just dodge what this verse is talking about. You have added no context that changes what Peter is saying.Um Peter tells us that Baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Christ.See a Baptism is symbolic of the death burial and ressurection of Jesus. Peter still tells us taht Baptism doth now save us. You cannot weasle your way areound this plainly spoken text. IOW with out baptism you cannot be saved and you cannot have a good conscience toward God. Water baptism was never the mechanism were one changes thier thoughts and actions, that is what is meant by"not the putting away of the filth of the flesh". That comes with the baptism of fire. Nice try but it fails on its face.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 [up high]I think "content, content, content" Ought to be the focus here. I am well aware of the "context" of these verses. DLClark wants the verse to say something other than what it plainly states becuase it runs against his preconcieved notions that water baptism is not required.
Vance Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 The problem he has is that (as I understand it) he believes that the requirement for baptism was done away with at the same time that the requirement for circumcision was done away with.HOWEVER!!!!!The scriptures don't ever say that the requirement for baptism was eliminated. It can only be inferred by approaching certain verses with a preconceived notion. Another violation of "sola scriptura", no?
DLClark Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 If it really is so unimportant as DLClark claims, why was Jesus baptised. Why did Jesus say "It is to fulfill all righteousness"?WHy did Peter claims that "even now Baptisim doth now save us"?I reject that Christ was claiming that it was a water birth. If it was a water birth why even mention it. It would be obvious that one needs to be born to be saved. It is obvious from the text that Jesus was not talking about the birth of a baby as that is what Nicodemus thought that was what he was talking about. "Can a man enter the womb a 2nd time?" It was obvious Christ was talking about a water baptism followed by a spiritual baptism or a baptism of fire.Read the 1 Peter passage and tell my water baptism is unable to do? the tell me what Pater says baptism really is? Also, do you know what types are? 1 Peter 3:20-2120 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:KJVDLC
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