The Problem of Salvation

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think you are close to the LDS train of thought. True believers will indeed continue to hear and follow, but LDS believe that one can lose their belief thru sin. That does not take away that they truly believed at one time.

Judas is a good example. Judas heard the Savior's voice and followed Him. But somewhere along the line, he chose to fall away, and betrayed the Savior. King David is another example of an elect person of the Lord falling from grace. When David first saw Bathsheba bathing on the roof top he should have walked away, but he decided to stop following the Lord and ventured on to his own. You would state that King David was never a "true" believer. LDS say that he was always a true believer, but did not continue to hear and follow.

It is AFTER eternal life is given, that no man can pluck them out of His hand...until then we need to continue to hear and follow.

These are great points that you can fall from grace.

[mfbukowski]

If everyone made the same choice, there would be no choice at all. No choice means no freedom. No freedom means no one merits anything. No merit means no reward.

If everyone made the same choice, there would be no reward.

The alleged "issue" here is actually free will vs determinism. Yawn.

[Montgomery Price]

This sounds a lot like:

Rule #1: The boss is always right.

Rule #2: If the boss is ever wrong, see rule #1.

Instead of seeing the contradiction, you see confirmation.

Did you not see that I already said it's a contradiction?

I'm saying "The plan of salvation creates a contradiction."

and you say "this is a contradiction."

And I'm saying, "yes... it is.... that's my argument."

So, please, can your respond to the rest of my post?

(prove to me that it's not a contradiction...)

[Flyonthewall]

Did you not see that I already said it's a contradiction?

I'm saying "The plan of salvation creates a contradiction."

and you say "this is a contradiction."

And I'm saying, "yes... it is.... that's my argument."

So, please, can your respond to the rest of my post?

(prove to me that it's not a contradiction...)

The plan of salvation is not the contradiction, it is your premise that is the contradiction, which I have stated from the start.

The plan of salvation holds people accountable for their actions based on their understanding.

Your premise has totally eliminated the possibility of somebody making an informed decision against long term rewards for short term gain.

The Plan of Salvation doest not take this possibility out, but since you do, you state that there is a contradiction in the Plan. Just because you don't acknowledge the possibility, does not mean it doesn't exist.

No proof is needed to refute a contradiction with the Plan of Salvation based on your premise, because your premise has nothing to do with the Plan.

[Hoops22]

Just simply saying "no it does not" doesn't make it so Hoops, that is all you have done in your giant non answer.

Nor does saying "This is what I believe" without undergirding that with... well... something. As for me, I gave fairly specific reasons for why I believe this. Additionaly, I've asked the question "why can the jews NOT have a different gospel?" and I gave reasons why they might. I didn't say they did (though, pre-atonement that is exactly what I believe).

You seriously want to argue that when Christ was talking to Nicodemas that that is only for him and the Jews?

You might try reading my responose a little more closely. I wrote that Nico was symptomatic of non believing jews and therefor, Jesus' words certainly can, and should, be applied to them. All of them. All that is required to usher in the Kingdom.

Several other Christians disagree with you. And I don't mean LDS Christians but main stream christians.

I'm aware. And there are quite a few who agree, as well. And for me, this approach is the only reasonable way to reconcile the entire bible with itself. I could be wrong and would anxious to see that.

Under the law of moses gentiles that convereted would have the same obliagations. Ruth is a prime example of a gentile convert. Or was it Ruths hand madain. I can't remember.

Individual gentiles, of course. But we are talking about a special, specific time in history. Jesus, the Messiah/King, is on earth, ready to rule. All that is required is for Israel to accept Him for who He is. They did not. That is a national sin and the church age/grace age is the mechanism by which God draws all NATIONS to himself. Jew and gentile alike.

I just find it silly to think that what Christ says doesn't apply to you. What an interesting approach.

That is emotional response, and an understandable one. I've shown how and why SOME of Jesus specific words do not apply to me. I've also shown how and why Jesus words in much of the NT DO apply to me and everyone else. Can you refute that?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That is emotional response, and an understandable one. I've shown how and why SOME of Jesus specific words do not apply to me. I've also shown how and why Jesus words in much of the NT DO apply to me and everyone else. Can you refute that?

It might be emtional it migh not be, but one thing you have not shown is how those words are not applicable to you.

Lets just agree to disgree here. I don't think one needs to dismiss Jesus words to reconcile the bible with it's self.

[Montgomery Price]

The plan of salvation is not the contradiction, it is your premise that is the contradiction, which I have stated from the start.

The plan of salvation holds people accountable for their actions based on their understanding.

I say it does not. It only claims this, but when evaluated, creates a contradiction.

Your premise has totally eliminated the possibility of somebody making an informed decision against long term rewards for short term gain.

Again, this is a decision made out of the confusion, ignorance, or deception of those long term rewards. Those long term rewards are infinitely more beneficial in every way than the short term gain. After a person is informed of long term rewards (given sufficient pros + cons), and is not confused, then they will choose ultimate exaltation.

The Plan of Salvation does not take this possibility out, but since you do, you state that there is a contradiction in the Plan. Just because you don't acknowledge the possibility, does not mean it doesn't exist.

I have acknowledge the possibility. I just did acknowledge the possibility just now, and have been. I've been repeating my acknowledgment over and over again and you have yet to actually respond to my argument. I have logically proven that this possibility does not actually exist in terms of one's eternal accountability for their actions. Which ties right in to the plan of salvation. You've yet to present any logical argument, only assert that it is a "contradiction", which is my argument to begin with.

No proof is needed to refute a contradiction with the Plan of Salvation based on your premise, because your premise has nothing to do with the Plan.

It has everything to do with the plan of salvation.

It deals with accountability.

It deals with choice.

It deals with understanding.

It deals with ultimate exaltation.

All of these things tie in to the plan as essential components.

-------------------------------

This is getting quite tiring. This is what I see happening:

Me: The plan of salvation claims "X", yet when evaluated, operates in a contradicting manner. Contradiction "Y" invalidates the claims that the plan of salvation makes.

You: "Y" is a contradiction. "Y" has nothing to do with what the plan claims.

Now, I've already stated that it is a contradiction, this is the entire point. Even if it is an argument that contradicts within itself, (or in other words, a contradiction independent of what the plan claims), you've yet to prove it.

I know that my argument does not mix with what the plan claims. My argument is what results when I evaluate how the plan operates. You have yet to show me any operation or demonstration that proves this is not the case. You have simply stated what the plan claims, which I have already stated... does not mix with how it operates.

You need to deal with how the plan operates given all the factors it supplies (i.e. ultimate exaltation, infinity, understanding, choice), and not just state what it claims. I am saying that what it claims, is not how it operates.

So, if I just can't explain this clearly enough. I'm still working on my revamped argument, and if you want to wait, I'll have it posted soon.

[Montgomery Price]

Posted new argument.

[Flyonthewall]

I say it does not. It only claims this, but when evaluated, creates a contradiction.

Again, this is a decision made out of the confusion, ignorance, or deception of those long term rewards. Those long term rewards are infinitely more beneficial in every way than the short term gain. After a person is informed of long term rewards (given sufficient pros + cons), and is not confused, then they will choose ultimate exaltation.

I have acknowledge the possibility. I just did acknowledge the possibility just now, and have been. I've been repeating my acknowledgment over and over again and you have yet to actually respond to my argument. I have logically proven that this possibility does not actually exist in terms of one's eternal accountability for their actions. Which ties right in to the plan of salvation. You've yet to present any logical argument, only assert that it is a "contradiction", which is my argument to begin with.

It has everything to do with the plan of salvation.

It deals with accountability.

It deals with choice.

It deals with understanding.

It deals with ultimate exaltation.

All of these things tie in to the plan as essential components.

-------------------------------

This is getting quite tiring. This is what I see happening:

Me: The plan of salvation claims "X", yet when evaluated, operates in a contradicting manner. Contradiction "Y" invalidates the claims that the plan of salvation makes.

You: "Y" is a contradiction. "Y" has nothing to do with what the plan claims.

Now, I've already stated that it is a contradiction, this is the entire point. Even if it is an argument that contradicts within itself, (or in other words, a contradiction independent of what the plan claims), you've yet to prove it.

I know that my argument does not mix with what the plan claims. My argument is what results when I evaluate how the plan operates. You have yet to show me any operation or demonstration that proves this is not the case. You have simply stated what the plan claims, which I have already stated... does not mix with how it operates.

You need to deal with how the plan operates given all the factors it supplies (i.e. ultimate exaltation, infinity, understanding, choice), and not just state what it claims. I am saying that what it claims, is not how it operates.

So, if I just can't explain this clearly enough. I'm still working on my revamped argument, and if you want to wait, I'll have it posted soon.

The claims of the Plan are set forth by God. Your evaluation of how the Plan operates is wrong. You have not shown or proven that man will never make an informed choice against their better judgment. It happens all the time. You have only set forth a proposition that it will never happen, because if it does then they are confused, ignorant or deceived, thus your proposition becomes self sustaining, even if it is not true.

[Hoops22]

It might be emtional it migh not be, but one thing you have not shown is how those words are not applicable to you.

I certainly have. Jesus is clear in His early ministry that He was preaching to Israel. That is clear and without equivocation. Therefor, one should

Lets just agree to disgree here. I don't think one needs to dismiss Jesus words to reconcile the bible with it's self.

And yet consistently we are treated with, on this very board, with the appropriate chop licking and hand wringing, the inconsistencies between what Paul wrote and what Jesus taught in the gospels. When one considers the appropriate context and audience, those "inconsistencies" disappear. I realize that LDS must have, and do rely on, perceived failures of the bible, lest their entire religious framework crumbles. But that fact (and fact it is), does not mean that the favorite troublesome spots are indeed problematic. They just seem that way when one has muddled audience and context into mish-mash. LDS love to trumpet their belief that they believe the bible as it is written, yet all I'm asking you to do is believe that when God is speaking to Israel/Jews you believe that He is... well... talking to Israel/Jews.

And, again, you are misrepresenting my position. I do not dismiss Jesus' words. They are quite valuable. Every word He spoke or has given us - INCLUDING THROUGH PAUL - are priceless. I just to choose to not impress upon me His words for another. There is no denying that Israel is a peculiar Nation, and it does not seem illogical to believe - as its supported from the bible - that God would have a different program for His nation.

I have shown that Jesus was addressing someone other than me - and my gentile friends. You have yet to show how that is immaterial - other than you wish it to be so. Mostly, I would think, because if you have to elevate what God gave us through Paul's (all) address to non-jews, much of LDS theology disappears. Nevertheless, those are God's words also.

[Hoops22]

Isn't it interesting how EVs say "A Bible, a Bible" but then then go through hoops (NO pun intended?) to say that that part of the Bible doesn't apply?

Does context and audience not apply? Is there any treatise in the history of mankind where that is not important?

Or that we who are simply taking it at its word,

Great. Then when God writes "to the twelve tribes of Israel" you will take Him at His word. Progress.

are taking it out of context,

You are.

by not applying all the creedal hoopla (There's that word again!) that they who can't make it mean what they want it to mean otherwise do?

I don't recall appealing to any creed in this discussion. I am simply saying that when Jesus is preaching to Jews He is preaching to Jews. It is you that must pretend that Jesus was secretly, surreptitiously preaching to all the nations when He specifically said otherwise.

I find it iteresting too, that on a thread started by an admitted athiest, not one of the EVs post are directed to him!

Some would say that LDS-ism is much more dangerous than atheism. Let's see if you can figure out why.

You would think that they would be at least as angxious(SIC) to declare Christ to him as to villify us!

You've been villified? Again? My, my.

It seems, as usual, that we are the only ones who are truly trying to reach both the non-believers, and the professed believers, with the true message of Christ!

Really. There was some thread a while ago about LDS arrogance. I'm not sure what was written there, perhaps you are familiar with it.

[Montgomery Price]

The claims of the Plan are set forth by God. Your evaluation of how the Plan operates is wrong. You have not shown or proven that man will never make an informed choice against their better judgment. It happens all the time. You have only set forth a proposition that it will never happen, because if it does then they are confused, ignorant or deceived, thus your proposition becomes self sustaining, even if it is not true.

I have proven it. I've explained it several times. You've just decided not to respond with your own counter argument.

You've yet to think past "it happens all the time". What "happens all the time" are choices that are made out of confusion. I've explained this over and over again.

It seems to happen all the time because those people only have temporal understanding of their consequences, not eternal understanding. Again.... THEY DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL UNDERSTANDING. If they understood their eternal consequences, they would not choose the short term reward, because the infinite reward is infinitely better and is always worth the finite amount of work. Always.

I suggest you hop over to my new thread.

[mrmendoza]

Does context and audience not apply? Is there any treatise in the history of mankind where that is not important?

Of course it does! That's why we take all of the Bible, Old and New Testements, along with modern revelation and can put in in a more reasonable context, then most of the junk you've been saying! While I'll have to admit that you're the first, in my memory, to actualy say that the Words of Jesus don't apply to everyone, I've seen and heard on more then one occasion people saying that the Bible is absolutly the only Word of God, and then turn around and try to explain it away!

Great. Then when God writes "to the twelve tribes of Israel" you will take Him at His word. Progress.

Absolutly! I'm of the Tribe of Manassah, myself!

You are.

Am not!

I don't recall appealing to any creed in this discussion. I am simply saying that when Jesus is preaching to Jews He is preaching to Jews. It is you that must pretend that Jesus was secretly, surreptitiously preaching to all the nations when He specifically said otherwise.

Forgive me if I misatributed Creedilism to you! Are you saying that you don't accept the various "orthodox" creeds?

Some would say that LDS-ism is much more dangerous than atheism. Let's see if you can figure out why.

You know, I think I have heard that Mormonism is more dangerous to Satans lies then atheism!

You've been villified? Again? My, my.

Yeah! Aint it a shame!

Really. There was some thread a while ago about LDS arrogance. I'm not sure what was written there, perhaps you are familiar with it.

No, I can't think of anytime I've ever heard of such a thing!

Mike

[Hoops22]

Of course it does! That's why we take all of the Bible, Old and New Testements, along with modern revelation

Aahhh, there we go. But let's move on.

and can put in in a more reasonable context,

I have no idea what this means. What is a reasonable context versus an unreasonable one? Can you give me an example? And tell me why it is so? I suspect not.

then most of the junk you've been saying!

Please, just show me where I'm wrong. If you can. I have my suspicions there as well.

While I'll have to admit that you're the first, in my memory, to actualy say that the Words of Jesus don't apply to everyone,

That could be because I never wrote that. I will say, however, that the words of Jesus, which include the entire NT, are specific to a generation or age or people. That seems reasonable to me. Why does it not to you?

I've seen and heard on more then one occasion people saying that the Bible is absolutly the only Word of God, and then turn around and try to explain it away!

Well, mormons certainly have us beat there. Do you have any definitive word of God upon which you can rely? Does not appear so. Nevertheless, I've seen mormons do the most entertaining mental gymnastics to justify their unique doctrine. What does this support?

Absolutly! I'm of the Tribe of Manassah, myself!

Then you should know what Im talking about.

Am not!

Are to.

Forgive me if I misatributed Creedilism to you! Are you saying that you don't accept the various "orthidox" creeds?

What, exactly, does the question have to do with the scripture I've cited, and the points I'm making? Creeds are just a buzzword mormons use flame the passions of the ill-informed. You would thing with the upcoming celebrations, one might find a creed in every house. (haunted one, that is.)

You know, I think I have heard that Mormonism is more dangerous to Satans lies then atheism!

I'm sure you have. What you hear is hardly relevant. Is it true? I don't think so.

Yeah! Aint it a shame!

And so utterly constant and consistent, as well.

No, I can't think of anytime I've ever heard of such a thing!

Try livin' in my neighborhood for a while. YOu'll hear it a lot.

[DLClark]

I think you are close to the LDS train of thought. True believers will indeed continue to hear and follow, but LDS believe that one can lose their belief thru sin. That does not take away that they truly believed at one time.

Judas is a good example. Judas heard the Savior's voice and followed Him. But somewhere along the line, he chose to fall away, and betrayed the Savior. King David is another example of an elect person of the Lord falling from grace. When David first saw Bathsheba bathing on the roof top he should have walked away, but he decided to stop following the Lord and ventured on to his own. You would state that King David was never a "true" believer. LDS say that he was always a true believer, but did not continue to hear and follow.

It is AFTER eternal life is given, that no man can pluck them out of His hand...until then we need to continue to hear and follow.

We are not close in belief here. The Bible contradicts what you are saying. The Bible teaches that all those who are saved by faith in Christ will continue in their or continue to hear and follow and will NEVER stop hearing or following. The Greek tenses of these two words, hear and follow, in John 10:27-29 brings this out. Then we also have here in this passage what is called a double negative in the Greek. This is the strongetst way for the Greek to say that something will never happen. The phrase "shall never perish" is a double negative. It should read "shall not never perish." All true sheep hear and follow and never stop hearing, ever. These true believers will not never perish or it is impossible for them to ever perish. Now if you disagree with this idea then show me from the Greek where I am wrong.

John 10:27-30

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

KJV

Also, from verse 30 it show that Jesus and God Father are the same God for both give eternal live and are one in purpose in giving this life. Only God can do this. So while Jesus was here on earth He was God. He said He was God and works proved that He was God. There is only one God. Now Even God the Father who said that He knows of no other God said that Jesus was God.

Heb 1:1-8

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

KJV

Notice that word God is captitalized here in verse 8 refering to Jesus as God. God the Father calles Jesus God. The word God is captialized when it refers to one true and only Creator God. Ther is not a plurality of God in the world. All so-called other gods are not real gods at all but man made imaginations in the minds of men. The Bible says there is only One True, Living, Creator, God. Not many.

1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

KJV

Isa 44:6

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

KJV

If the God of the Bible is the first and the last, how many Gods are there?

If Jesus is the true God and eternal life is He a different God God then there is conflict for us here. But there are not contradictions in the Bible Jesus and God the Father are the very same One tru Living, Creator, God.

Jesus is even called God the Everlasting Father.

Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

KJV

DLC

[mrmendoza]

I have no idea what this means. What is a reasonable context versus an unreasonable one? Can you give me an example? And tell me why it is so? I suspect not.

That could be because I never wrote that. I will say, however, that the words of Jesus, which include the entire NT, are specific to a generation or age or people. That seems reasonable to me. Why does it not to you?

Hmmmm. You've got me in a dilema here. Being rather simple minded as I am, I'm not very good at explaining deeper doctrines , but let me try this and see how it comes out. (Of course this might be a good time for some of my more estute LDS friends to get in here and help me out!) When we are baptised, by proper authority, we inter a covenent with God. This covenent is part of the same covenet as was given to Abraham, and as such it can be called the Abrahamic Covenent. This covenet preceeds the Law of Moses, and through it we are adopted into the house of Abraham.(If we're not already a literal decendent of Abraham.) Since the Abrahamic Covenet was to be effected through the linege of Issac and Jacob (Who is Isreal) we become of the house of Isreal. As such that which was spoken to the house of Isreal by Jesus, was also meant for us.

As to the your second asertation, you're right, there is some reasonableness to the idea that since much of what was said in days of old may no longer apply, at least directly, to our time. This is why we need new scripture, modern prophets, and new revelation, for our time! You know, words which are specific to our generation or age or people! Gee! you're finally coming around to our point of view!

Well, mormons certainly have us beat there. Do you have any definitive word of God upon which you can rely? Does not appear so. Nevertheless, I've seen mormons do the most entertaining mental gymnastics to justify their unique doctrine. What does this support?

The difference is called continueing revelation whereas as times and circumstances change, The Lord, through His prophets gives us the up to the minute Word, as to what we need now, as opposed to past generations, or ages, or people!

You people, and yes, I'm generalizing here, keep saying that The Bible is all there is, but we need to have a working knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, and Armainian, to understand what it means. This leads us to have to take the word of whichever "Biblical scholar" you happen to be following that day! Darrel, on his last post was even going so far as to talk about the captilization of the English word, God! (Which we also captilize out of respect for Him.)

And what about the Johnen (sic) comma?

Are to.

Am not!

What, exactly, does the question have to do with the scripture I've cited, and the points I'm making? Creeds are just a buzzword mormons use flame the passions of the ill-informed. You would think with the upcoming celebrations, one might find a creed in every house. (haunted one, that is.)

Just wanted to know if you accepted them as part of your belief system. It's easier to talk to someone when I know what direction he's coming from. But if you're ashamed to admit to that , then I understand! My acusation of creedilism was a general charge against most EVs, not specific to you or anyone in particular!

I'm sure you have. What you hear is hardly relevant. Is it true? I don't think so.

Is too!

Please, just show me where I'm wrong. If you can. I have my suspicions there as well.

I thought everybody else has done a pretty good job of that already! You just haven't been paying attention!

Try livin' in my neighborhood for a while. YOu'll hear it a lot.

If I were you I'd move!

Mike

[Flyonthewall]

We are not close in belief here. The Bible contradicts what you are saying. The Bible teaches that all those who are saved by faith in Christ will continue in their or continue to hear and follow and will NEVER stop hearing or following. The Greek tenses of these two words, hear and follow, in John 10:27-29 brings this out. Then we also have here in this passage what is called a double negative in the Greek. This is the strongetst way for the Greek to say that something will never happen. The phrase "shall never perish" is a double negative. It should read "shall not never perish." All true sheep hear and follow and never stop hearing, ever. These true believers will not never perish or it is impossible for them to ever perish. Now if you disagree with this idea then show me from the Greek where I am wrong.

I cannot tell you about the Greek because Greek is....well it's Greek to me. But you did lose me with your example of "shall never perish" being a double negative that should really read "shall not never perish". If something "shall not never perish", then it will eventually perish.

Tell me, when does one achieve the rank of "true" believer? Is there a defining point at which someone can say - "I am saved and need not worry about sin or temptation"?

[DLClark]

I cannot tell you about the Greek because Greek is....well it's Greek to me. But you did lose me with your example of "shall never perish" being a double negative that should really read "shall not never perish". If something "shall not never perish", then it will eventually perish.

Tell me, when does one achieve the rank of "true" believer? Is there a defining point at which someone can say - "I am saved and need not worry about sin or temptation"?

If you can not tell me about the Greek then how do you I am wrong? What if I am correct here about the Greek would that convince you that a true believer can never lose that which he can not keep, his salvation? A true believe is a true believe the very moment he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal by faith. the Holy at that moment resides within him convincing him that he is saved. Notice what the Bible says of how we can tell we are saved or true believers.

Rom 8:9-11

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

NASU

Gal 3:26-27

6 For you are allsons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

NASU

Rom 8:16-17

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we arechildren of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

NASU

1 Cor 12:13

3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

NASU

The Spirit of God at salvation places us into Christ. that is how we know that we are true believers. We are in christ by faith and have the Holy Spirit indwelling us.

Q. Is the Holy Spirit indwelling you by faith in Christ?

DLC

[DLClark]

Mike you quoted this from the Book of Mormon, "32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Moroni 10: 32-33, Book of Mormon"

How can one be perfect?

Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness all of the time and never have once faith in this?

You are free to send me private email on this if you like.

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mike you quoted this from the Book of Mormon, "32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Moroni 10: 32-33, Book of Mormon"

How can one be perfect?

Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness all of the time and never have once faith in this?

You are free to send me private email on this if you like.

DLC

You can only do that through Christ. But if one thinks that all I need to do is confess Jesus and just sit back on is mistaken.

Which the LDS have done this. Want to try again?

[Vance]

John 6: 66 many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Acts 20: 30 speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples.

Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed . . . unto another gospel.

Heb. 6: 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.

Heb. 10: 26 if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge.

Sounds quite clear that one can once be a true believer and then fall away.

One must therefore DO or continue to DO something to maintain "true believer"ship.

[DLClark]

You can only do that through Christ. But if one thinks that all I need to do is confess Jesus and just sit back on is mistaken.

Which the LDS have done this. Want to try again?

There are many who wrongly think that if a person is not "under the law" then he will be LAWLESS. A right relationship to Jesus Christ will not result in lawlessness, but rather fruitfulness (Rom. 7:4). Indeed, a right relationship to Jesus Christ is the only possible way that the righteous requirements of the law will be fulfilled: "That the righteousness [righteous requirements] of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4). "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23). Notice carefully that Romans 8:4 does not say "by us" but "in us." The key to fulfilling the law is LOVE (Rom. 13:8-10 and Gal. 5:14). The key to having LOVE is a Spirit-filled walk (Gal. 5:13-23 and Rom. 8:4). In and of myself I am totally unable to fulfill God

[Vance]

In our justification we did not receive the righteousness of God by the works of the law OF MOSES(Rom. 3:21-22); so also in the Christian life we do not fulfill the righteousness of God

[mrmendoza]

Mike you quoted this from the Book of Mormon, "32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Moroni 10: 32-33, Book of Mormon"

How can one be perfect?

Perfection is a relative term. Niether I, nor any other LDS that I know of, expect to become perfect in this life, at least not as most people think of perfection. A perfect baby has all of it's fingers and toes, no more then ten each, eats drinks poops and crys a lot. It is unable to stand, walk, talk, and when it's newborn, it can't even hold up it's head or roll over. But if it is healthy and not totaly disfigured, or suffering from some major defect, we call it a "perfect baby"!

The type of perfection that is refered to here, is that which is attributed to us by a perfect Christ, not our own. That's what is meant by being "perfect in Christ". It is through His atonement that we have salvation, by His blood, that we are sanctified, and by His grace we are made perfect in Christ! When we are baptised (After repenting of our sins and confessing Christ as our Lord and Savior) we are perfect in Christ because , having recieved a remission of our sins, we come out clean and holy, without spot. (See above scripture reference!) After which we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and admonished to call upon Him to help us stay in the right path. All of this is ours, not of ourselves, but given by the grace of God!

Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness all of the time

I wish I could say yes to that, but I haven't! But I do have the reasurrence that through the gift of repentence (Also part of the marvelous Atonement of Christ!) and by the regular renewing of those covenants that I took at baptisim, that I can still have a hope in the perfection of Christ, through faith in Him!

and never have once faith in this?

I'm sorry, I don't get the question.

And no, I'm not interested in having a private "Bible bash" with you!

Mike

[Flyonthewall]

If you can not tell me about the Greek then how do you I am wrong? What if I am correct here about the Greek would that convince you that a true believer can never lose that which he can not keep, his salvation?

Can you clarify the double negative portion that you stated previously? I don't follow your explaination that it should read "shall not never perish", and have it mean that what you said it means.

A true believe is a true believe the very moment he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal by faith. the Holy at that moment resides within him convincing him that he is saved. Notice what the Bible says of how we can tell we are saved or true believers.

Rom 8:9-11

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

NASU

Gal 3:26-27

6 For you are allsons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

NASU

Rom 8:16-17

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we arechildren of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

NASU

1 Cor 12:13

3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

NASU

When were the Apostles saved in their faith in Christ? Was it when Jesus first invited them to "come follow me"? They left their lives straightway and followed Him, would you consider that true faith? Even after Jesus declared "upon this rock..." to Peter, in the Garden He says to them: "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Now why would Jesus Christ first declare that no one can lose their salvation if they have faith, then caution Peter and company to "watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation, if that wasn't possible?

When the Apostles were going to fill the position left vacant by Judas they stated: "... Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell". What did Judas "fall" from? Does one need to be a "true" believer to be an Apostle of the Lord?

The Spirit of God at salvation places us into Christ. that is how we know that we are true believers. We are in christ by faith and have the Holy Spirit indwelling us.

We are "true" believers when we continue to hear and follow. Not only should we hear and follow, we should watch and pray that we enter not into temptation.

Q. Is the Holy Spirit indwelling you by faith in Christ?

I received the gift of the Holy Ghost by those who were in authority, through the laying on of hands. The Holy Ghost is my constant companion.