The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

Ah, Hoops. You and DLClark don't seem to have any idea as to what M Price is trying to do here, do you? This is not a discussion as to "which Jesus is right"! The postulate that he is giving here is, that given the nature of "eternal progression" as we, that is the Mormons, proclaim it, he believes that it it both unfair and unreasonable that anyone would fail to, or not be allowed to, embrace it fully and achieve full exaltation. My own position has modified somewhat during the course of the conversation, but IMO I believe that whie it may be reasonable to believe that everyone has the opportunity for exaltation, given what we know what Jesus has done for us, it's not reasonable to believe that everyone will choose to accept it, given what we know about human behavior!

We believe in a God who will take every aspect of our individual lives into account in the final judgement. Where we've been confused, he will give understanding, decieved, he will give truth, ignorant, he will give knowledge. If we have sined, He has given us the gift of repentence, and in all our shortcomings he has given us the Atonement of His Only Begotton Son, Jesus Christ! Yes, we believe that certain "works" are required on our part to obtain all of these things in their fulness, including baptisim, the laying on of hands for the gift of The Holy Ghost, and the Temple ordenences. But inasmuch as most of the world has never had the opportunity to recieve these ordenences, He has give us the power and authority to perform them in behalf of those who have died without them. This so that all of mankind can recieve everything that our loving Heavenly Father wants them to have!

We do not believe that after sending the Lord to be tortured to death, for our salvation, that He would then send more then 75% of the people into the world, to be condemed to burn forever in a firery hell, simply for the sin of being born! You would have all those poor souls who have been " decieved, confused, and ignorant", in this world concined to an everlasting punishment, even those who called upon Jesus, but not in the right manner, without any recourse, and call that justice! You can preach a God of hellfire and damnation, and call Him a loving God. We preach a loving God, who seeks to love us into heaven, not frighten us there!

Mike

Mike you said, "we believe that certain "works" are required on our part to obtain all of these things in their fulness, including baptisim, the laying on of hands for the gift of The Holy Ghost, and the Temple ordenences." Q. Have you done those works well enough to obtain all that you hope to after you die? How do you know that you have done those works well enough?

Then, about God not sending those to hell who have been decieved misunderstand one very important thing. Rom 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

All mankind is guilty before God due to the fact that all are sinners.Rom 3:19

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

KJV

So it does not matter ifa person is decieved or not all are guilty sinners before God. There is way to be sure that you have done your works for heaven with god well enought. That standard is the glory of God. You must be as glorious as God is to enter heaven. Are you that glorious Mike? But you can be if someone else become glorious for you. Notice what Jesus has done to remedy you porblem of not being glorious as God is. 2 Cor 5:21-6:1

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness (be as glorious as God is) of God in him.

KJV

The only thing that the Bible says that send a person to hell is not believing in Christ. Now the Christ you must believe in must be the Christ of the Bible. He was never a man who became a God. He always was and is today the one True Living Eternal God. This is the Christ you must believe in for salvation. John 3:36-4:1

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

KJV

It does not matter how compassionate you believe God is He still is a God of justice and all who do not believe are judged. You are not God so you do not set the standard for heaven.

Darrel

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mike you said, "we believe that certain "works" are required on our part to obtain all of these things in their fulness, including baptisim, the laying on of hands for the gift of The Holy Ghost, and the Temple ordenences." Q. Have you done those works well enough to obtain all that you hope to after you die? How do you know that you have done those works well enough?

Darrel

Have you done your faith well enough to obtain all that you hope to after you die?

To answer your question, one of the things is being baptised. Like you can really mess that up. IF you are bapsties by immersion as the savior claimed with the proper authority then there is nothing to "screw up".

Why did John baptise Jesus? He had the proper priesthood authority to do so.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't know. It's not an idea I've entertained.

Good

Well, he was talking to the Jews. Can you show otherwise? Because the scripture specifically tells us that is His audience.

So because he was talking to the Jews it doesn't apply to us. THat is what you are insinuating. And I reject taht. Jesus words are meant for all not just the Jews. So by adding this "context" it really doesn't change much.

What is the kingdom of God?

I have shown, and can further show, that the Kingdom of God is the literal reign of Christ, with Him on His throne. NOt Christ reigning in our hearts, not Christ ruling over the church, as some would like to have us believe, but the verses and their supporting verses point to a literal reign of Christ over earthly kingdoms. The church is the mechanism by which gentiles are able to participate in this reign with HIm.

So if the Kingdom of God is the "literal reign of Christ, with Him on His throne". When does it end? How can one be saved and not be part of the kingdom of God/ Hevean?

Or how can one be not saved and yet be part of the kingdom of God/Hevean?

[Maidservant]

I apologize that for reasons of time (I have an appointment soon, ha ha!) I did not read the entire thread so I'm sorry if I repeat someone or missed out on an important point. I do want to say that the questions you present are one I have wrestled with in the past and I think I almost understand now; just a few points I hope God will continue to clarify for me.

I just want to add an idea: the reason we came to earth in the first place.

This choice to come to earth was a conscious choice on our part. We lived in celestial glory already. We left that glory for a purpose. Mercyngrace said it when she said to stop seeing suffering and start seeing educational opportunities. It is not that we need to show that we are good or bad people and then get a reward or punishment. This is not how I see salvation at all. It is that we came to have experience and knowledge of a kind and in a way that is not possible in any other manner. We cannot advance as beings unless we know suffering and encounter the Adversary because we would not have this type of opportunity in the celestial glory we are used to and came from. Encountering the Adversary is an ADVANCED TEST. It's not for wimps, ha ha. Every one born here, no matter what circumstance, is a child of God and has come here TO GAIN THIS KNOWLEDGE and they can do so in any circumstance and this is not dependent on any religion. However, encountering the Adversary is hazardous and to keep this short and not explain it at length, I will simply say that we need a Savior in order to be redeemed from the hits we take while here in mortality. Everyone who wants to can be healed (through atonement, ordinances, covenants, etc). There will be opportunity and guidance given to all of God's children. We will be in whatever level of progression (celestial, etc) based on what we've become, not based on a set of keys handed to us for our mansion in heaven (which biblically does NOT mean a house, I don't think, ha ha).

[mrmendoza]

An adequate understanding can be reached after the are freed from the confusion, ignorance, and deception that restricts them. After the confusion is lifted, the will to understand is found. After someone understands they must willingly have faith to gain an adequate understanding, they will do so... If this has not already happened, as would plain faith or belief would allow

Too bad you don't believe anything you just said, you might make an interesting preacher!

I contest, that given the assumption that the Celestial Kingdom exists, that every sin and action that leads someone away from the Celestial Kingdom is a decision made out of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

There is no alternative.

Well if there realy is no alternitive in your mind, and you insist on being dogmactic about it, why did you postulate it as an argument to be discussed? I guess I'm getting about as redundent as you and your "confusion, ignorence, and deception" mantra, but how can you make such an absolute proclamation, about such a speculative subject when you don't even believe in the CK anyway?

The facts are that there have been many different points of view expressed here, by everybody except you! You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again!

You need to view it from the eternal ultimate exaltation and celestial kingdom perspective

Yes, you do!

Mike

[Hoops22]

So because he was talking to the Jews it doesn't apply to us. THat is what you are insinuating. And I reject taht. Jesus words are meant for all not just the Jews. So by adding this "context" it really doesn't change much.

I recall a point I had made from bom, and you countered with audience/context. Why is it good for bom and not the bible? Nevertheless, it does NOT apply to us in this way, Jesus was preaching a specific message - the kingdom - to a specific audience - israel - for whom the message specifically applies. You simply can not get around that. And, your only tactic so far is... "well, either we take Jesus words and apply them to us because we want to, or throw out the gospels."

So if the Kingdom of God is the "literal reign of Christ, with Him on His throne". When does it end?

It doesn't

How can one be saved and not be part of the kingdom of God/ Hevean?

ONe cant. But the church is an entirely different mechanism by which you are saved. For a first century jew, there was no resurrection, no church, and, at the time jesus spoke these words, no atonement.

Or how can one be not saved and yet be part of the kingdom of God/Hevean?

By being born into it. Other than that, one can not.

[mrmendoza]

Mike you said, "we believe that certain "works" are required on our part to obtain all of these things in their fulness, including baptisim, the laying on of hands for the gift of The Holy Ghost, and the Temple ordenences." Q. Have you done those works well enough to obtain all that you hope to after you die? How do you know that you have done those works well enough?

Did I forget to mention that we have the restoried authority of the Priesthood of God? That being so, all of the "works" that I mentioned, having been performed by authorized Pristhood holders, were done "well enough."

Then, about God not sending those to hell who have been decieved misunderstand one very important thing. Rom 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

All mankind is guilty before God due to the fact that all are sinners.Rom 3:19

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

KJV

Yes I know those scriptures very well, they also aply to those of us who have accepted Christ! That's why He came to provide us a way out of condemnation, through His magnificent atonement!

So it does not matter ifa person is decieved or not all are guilty sinners before God. There is way to be sure that you have done your works for heaven with god well enought. That standard is the glory of God. You must be as glorious as God is to enter heaven. Are you that glorious Mike? But you can be if someone else become glorious for you. Notice what Jesus has done to remedy you porblem of not being glorious as God is. 2 Cor 5:21-6:1

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness (be as glorious as God is) of God in him.

KJV

All that we do, we do in the name of the Savior! All that we hope for, is in Christ, indeed;

For, for this end was the law given; werefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith ;... And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, ... that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins 2 Nephi 25,26 BOM

All glory has been given to Christ by the Father,

The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8; 16-17 KJV

Is that glory enough?

The only thing that the Bible says that send a person to hell is not believing in Christ. Now the Christ you must believe in must be the Christ of the Bible. He was never a man who became a God. He always was and is today the one True Living Eternal God. This is the Christ you must believe in for salvation. John 3:36-4:1

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

KJV

Don't forget

"Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14;6" KJV

But the question here is ;

How then shall they call upon him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall preach except they are sent?... Romans 10; 14-15 KJV

We believe that those who didn't have the chance to hear the gospell in this life will be given that chance in the spirit world! (See 1 PT. 3;18-20, and also cpt. 4;6)

We believe that He organized the spirit world so that the rightous spirits could preach to the not-so-rightous spirits!

It does not matter how compassionate you believe God is He still is a God of justice and all who do not believe are judged. You are not God so you do not set the standard for heaven.

Nor do you!

Mike

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I recall a point I had made from bom, and you countered with audience/context. Why is it good for bom and not the bible? Nevertheless, it does NOT apply to us in this way, Jesus was preaching a specific message - the kingdom - to a specific audience - israel - for whom the message specifically applies. You simply can not get around that. And, your only tactic so far is... "well, either we take Jesus words and apply them to us because we want to, or throw out the gospels."

I don't think that was me that made that point as I think the scriptures apply to us. Sometimes in the D&C people tend to use that on this board that the context of who was being told what mattered. BUt I still cant for the life of me see how that makes it any less relevant to you or me in the bible. I have a hard time when LDS members try to tell others they are taking it out of context and the only context is that "He was talking to Nephi" or "He was talking to JS".

If you can find on post of mine the demonstrates that I have done that I am seriously interested in looking at that post.

Did you know Hoops, that once we accpet Chrsit we are adopted into Israel through the Abrahamic covenant? It is in the bible. So that means that every word that Christ said applies to the believer even if they have no real blood of Isreal in their veins.

That is why I have a huge problem with your "context" as those verse of scripture apply to us as much as they did the Jews.

[Jason]

Every word in the Bible is being addressed to someone other than ourselves. Does that mean we have to disregard all of it? After all, we're not Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon, or Hebrews. I guess Paul's writings don't apply to us.

[Hoops22]

Every word in the Bible is being addressed to someone other than ourselves. Does that mean we have to disregard all of it? After all, we're not Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon, or Hebrews. I guess Paul's writings don't apply to us.

NOt quite the same. The bible is very, very clear that there are clear, inviolate distinctions between the nation of Israel and gentiles. That is the line of demarcation.

[Hoops22]

I don't think that was me that made that point as I think the scriptures apply to us. Sometimes in the D&C people tend to use that on this board that the context of who was being told what mattered. BUt I still cant for the life of me see how that makes it any less relevant to you or me in the bible. I have a hard time when LDS members try to tell others they are taking it out of context and the only context is that "He was talking to Nephi" or "He was talking to JS".

If you can find on post of mine the demonstrates that I have done that I am seriously interested in looking at that post.

Did you know Hoops, that once we accpet Chrsit we are adopted into Israel through the Abrahamic covenant? It is in the bible. So that means that every word that Christ said applies to the believer even if they have no real blood of Isreal in their veins.

That is why I have a huge problem with your "context" as those verse of scripture apply to us as much as they did the Jews.

I'm pretty sure that it was you. But, to my mind, it doesn't matter. I don't think i could find it nor do i want to invest the time. It had something to do with JS comment on the RCC being the devil's church.... or something like that.

I've heard the grafted into Israel argument. I find very little, if any, scriptural basis for it - which is why I reject it. It is much more clear, and cogent, to regard Israel and gentiles in a dispensationalist vein that clearly and suspiciously separates the two. but even if you are correct, how can you assume that every word of christ applies to us pre-atonement, pre-resurrection, and pre-church. Does not the death of Christ change the game a bit? But, let's assume even that is not the case, what do you do with Jesus' words in letters addressed to gentiles? How can you reconcile them?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

NOt quite the same. The bible is very, very clear that there are clear, inviolate distinctions between the nation of Israel and gentiles. That is the line of demarcation.

Yes there is a distinction however there is not a separate gospel for the Jews compared with the gentiles.

Consider one more point. When Christ was talking ot Nicodemas was Christ only talking to him? 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born bagain, he cannot csee the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

One of my favorite EV scriptures that is quoted to me in, Is the sciprture to justifiy "eternal security". Now in this thread I am not actually going to argue that waht that verse of scripture means.

Here it is.

John 10: 28-29

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father

[DLClark]

One of my favorite EV scriptures that is quoted to me in, Is the sciprture to justifiy "eternal security". Now in this thread I am not actually going to argue that waht that verse of scripture means.

Here it is.

John 10: 28-29

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father

[mrmendoza]

Isn't it interesting how EVs say "A Bible, a Bible" but then then go through hoops (NO pun intended?) to say that that part of the Bible doesn't apply? Or that we who are simply taking it at its word, are taking it out of context, by not applying all the creedal hoopla (There's that word again!) that they who can't make it mean what they want it to mean otherwise do?

I find it iteresting too, that on a thread started by an admitted athiest, not one of the EVs post are directed to him! You would think that they would be at least as angxious(SIC) to declare Christ to him as to villify us! It seems, as usual, that we are the only ones who are truly trying to reach both the non-believers, and the professed believers, with the true message of Christ!

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Moroni 10: 32-33, Book of Mormon

Mike

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, you do not believe that John 10: 27-29 applies to us today. Did you know that this passage agrees with the rest of the New Testament. Romans chapter 8 in particular teaches the very same thing as John does. The eternal security of the believer is found in every book in the New Testament. Lets see what Romans has to say.

Rom 8:31-39

DLC

Don't talk to me about it talk to your friend Hoops. He is the one that is trying to tell me taht Jesus words only apply to the Jews, I am telling him that is incorrect and gave an example from the EV perspective of that. It is funny that you care getting all over me for it.

on a separte note.

Eternal Security is a false doctrine designed to make believers think they can do what ever they want and not repent but still be saved. Sorry.

Tell me how can one be saved and have eternal security if one does not do the will of the Father per Matthew 7:21?

If I confess Jesus and say I live the gospel for 5 years and then I stop living the gospel am I still saved?

There are many scriptures from the NT that tells us we must endure to the end and if we turn back to our old lives we crucify Christ afresh.

Not one of those verse of scripture tells us taht once we are saved we cannot fall from grace. Do you have any scripture that tells us this directly with out equivocation, or do you only have verse of scripture that has to be interpreted through a prior assumption of what they should say?

Maybe you should direct your gospel to the athiest that started this thread. I believe that Jesus is my savior and I have accpeted him into my heart. Accourding to your beliefs I am saved, go to those that are sick. Eh?

[Flyonthewall]

So, you do not believe that John 10: 27-29 applies to us today. Did you know that this passage agrees with the rest of the New Testament.

I will agree with you that the believer has eternal security... so long as the believer continues in their belief and acts accordingly...

There was a word for those that said one thing and did another, and Christ did not take kindly to them.

[Montgomery Price]

Some learned the difference sufficiently before experiencing mortality, and thus did not have to have 8 or more years of mortality to explore it further.

Jesus is the prime example - he became divine before his Earth life.

So, it is possible have the knowledge of good and evil without the test of Earth. You just need a body, and then out. Why can't everyone do this, if you can gain a perfectly adequate understanding outside of Earth.

We are not them. What you need from your Earth life is different from what someone who dies as a child needed.

I wouldn't see that it's very different. The basic ideas are there. Knowledge of good and evil, free-will, spiritual growth... etc.

The goal is the same. The way that goal is accomplished, I contest, is flawed.

Yes. We know that people will be given the opportunity to repent and accept the gospel in the after-life, but only before the day of judgement.

Part of the point of entering the Celestial kingdom is to enjoy eternal increase and progression, so it's safe to say that spiritual growth will be experienced there.

Spiritual growth may be possible in the lesser kingdoms, but meeting the conditions to enter the Celestial kingdom will no longer be possible for those assigned to a lesser kingdom. Not because they will be barred from doing so, but because they cannot do so, even given infinite time.

Why is it that they cannot, when the only reason they are in this situation, is if they were confused, ignorant, or deceived? Are you saying that no matter the actions of some persons, they can never attain celestial glory, or a certain amount of growth?

This destroys any value to free-will.

This also creates a "bar" too high for some "intelligences".

Why doesn't God give everyone equal opportunity to grow, instead of only giving the opportunity to those who aren't doomed for one of the lesser kingdoms to begin with?

Every man? Satan and a third of the host of heaven disagreed with you. They understood the true situation and God's character better than we possibly can during this life and they chose not to work towards the Celestial kingdom.

Before you ask: No, I don't think there is much logic to this choice, but then I didn't choose to follow Satan's path in the pre-existence, and neither had anyone else you have met during this life.

The entire sample of humanity that we have to base our judgements on what people will and won't choose is only 2/3rds of the total, and it's the 2/3rds that made a specific initial choice.

And Satan was confused, ignorant, or deceived. It's obviously the wrong choice. How could he not be confused and still pick to reject?

Is there any scriptural support that says they understood the truth? Because they obviously didn't understand that rejecting the truth would send them to a place infinitely less desirable than God's plan.

Reading a dictionary definition is quite different from actual experience.

If you had never ridden a bike, could you read instructions on how to do so and then instantly join the Tour de France?

Well, there's obviously a minimum requirement. And it seems that some people experience enormous amounts of excess suffering. It's akin to saying:

Could you just ride it for a little bit instead of suffering for your entire life in constant traumatizing pain, scarring deformity, hopeless confusion and terrible agony? Even thought it all could have been avoided?

It still seems possible to learn outside of the earthly sphere as well. I don't see any reason to believe that we can't.

They are sufficient for those who have it in them to make the choices necessary to live a Celestial-worthy life. They are of course insufficient to force anyone to live a Celestial-worthy life.

I'd say it's not a true test at all.

And again, if you give someone the fair and the actually "true" test (all the pros and cons), then you don't have to force anyone, because the choice is obvious.

So, why are some given sufficient information, and others not?

[Montgomery Price]

Sounds an awful lot like the insanity defense....

Judge: Counsel...How does your client plead to murder?

Lawyer: Not guilty by reason of insanity your honor

Judge: How did you come to that conclusion?

Lawyer: Well...anyone would have to be crazy to murder someone, so my client was obviously insane.

In you premise, there is not a soul that ever lived or is living or will live, that can be held accountable for anything they could do that would keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom. If someone confuses themself or willfully ignores their own understanding they are blameless? Not accountable?

Again I say that your premise is flawed. We are judged by our own understanding of right and wrong and how we act within that understanding. If one ignores his own understanding, then the full weight of accountability will be had on that person's shoulders if they do not repent.

This is correct, and my premise has yet to be invalidated.

It does sound like a plead for insanity, and it is just that. How can someone be blamed for making an honest confused, ignorant, and deceived decision?

They don't know any better. They don't know what consequences will be entailed in the after-life. They don't know that, given the pros + cons, they would choose the celestial kingdom, for absolute surety every time and wouldn't commit the sin to begin with.

If they choose to ignore their understanding, then their understanding was not adequate enough to prevent this. If they had understood more, then they would not do so. They ignore it out of the ignorance of further understanding. It's confusion. It's deception. It's ignorance.

There is no reasoning that invalidates my premise other than "well, the plan says this."

Well, I'm saying that when "the plan says this," it creates a logical contradiction and flawed plan.

You can't prove to me that someone is responsible for ignoring their understanding, when they were ignorant of enough understanding to choose correctly.

It may seem like a "yes" "no" "yes" "no" game, but when I say "yes", I'm supporting my argument. When you present argument, you don't prove to me that someone can be free of confusion, ignorance, and deception and still enter one of the lower kingdoms. You can only assert it, or say "because they are confused, ignorant, or deceived, they don't get to the CK." This is not a valid argument, this is my argument.

[Montgomery Price]

Too bad you don't believe anything you just said, you might make an interesting preacher!

Too bad, indeed.

Well if there realy is no alternitive in your mind, and you insist on being dogmactic about it, why did you postulate it as an argument to be discussed? I guess I'm getting about as redundent as you and your "confusion, ignorence, and deception" mantra, but how can you make such an absolute proclamation, about such a speculative subject when you don't even believe in the CK anyway?

The facts are that there have been many different points of view expressed here, by everybody except you! You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again!

I am open to any logically coherent alternative, and I have been presenting my argument. I'm actually going to make a new thread later. And the confusion, ignorance, deception gets really repetitive, I know. They are just great words.

And, again... To say "You don't believe, so you can't, are not capable of, or shouldn't argue"... is not an argument.

Yes, many people repeat the same views... but, if I keep repeating the same thing, would it also be possible that everyone is misunderstanding me?

Yes, you do!

Mike

[Flyonthewall]

This is correct, and my premise has yet to be invalidated.

It does sound like a plead for insanity, and it is just that. How can someone be blamed for making an honest confused, ignorant, and deceived decision?

They don't know any better. They don't know what consequences will be entailed in the after-life. They don't know that, given the pros + cons, they would choose the celestial kingdom, for absolute surety every time and wouldn't commit the sin to begin with.

If they choose to ignore their understanding, then their understanding was not adequate enough to prevent this. If they had understood more, then they would not do so. They ignore it out of the ignorance of further understanding. It's confusion. It's deception. It's ignorance.

There is no reasoning that invalidates my premise other than "well, the plan says this."

Well, I'm saying that when "the plan says this," it creates a logical contradiction and flawed plan.

You can't prove to me that someone is responsible for ignoring their understanding, when they were ignorant of enough understanding to choose correctly.

It may seem like a "yes" "no" "yes" "no" game, but when I say "yes", I'm supporting my argument. When you present argument, you don't prove to me that someone can be free of confusion, ignorance, and deception and still enter one of the lower kingdoms. You can only assert it, or say "because they are confused, ignorant, or deceived, they don't get to the CK." This is not a valid argument, this is my argument.

This sounds a lot like:

Rule #1: The boss is always right.

Rule #2: If the boss is ever wrong, see rule #1.

Instead of seeing the contradiction, you see confirmation.

[Hoops22]

Yes there is a distinction however there is not a separate gospel for the Jews compared with the gentiles.

Well, why not? It seems reasonable to me that there might be simply because of the special relationship God has with Israel. Im not offerring that as evidence that there is one. I'm simply saying that it is entirely reasonable that there could be.

Having written that. I would maintain that the gospel of the kingdom is a separate gospel. That throughout the OT the jews were given signs to look for for the Messiah who will rulle the world. And, that that is a separate gospel. And of course, at Israel's rejection of Christ as the Messiah, we have a new gospel. However, this gospel is not something conjured up at the last minute because Israel foiled God's plan. I would maintain that this gospel had been hinted at from the beginning. There's a verse about "the root of Jesse" that I believe applies here, though I can't be sure as I am not at my office right now.

more point. When Christ was talking ot Nicodemas was Christ only talking to him? 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born bagain, he cannot csee the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother

[DLClark]

I will agree with you that the believer has eternal security... so long as the believer continues in their belief and acts accordingly...

There was a word for those that said one thing and did another, and Christ did not take kindly to them.

The words "hear and follow" are present indicative active verbs in the greek that show continuous action. So, all true believers will never stop hearing or following Christ. All true believe will continue in their faith or they are not true believers. Also, there are no conditional clauses found in the John passage. If there is where is it? All conditional clauses in the Greek begin with an "if." Where do you find an "if" in the passage?

[Flyonthewall]

The words "hear and follow" are present indicative active verbs in the greek that show continuous action. So, all true believers will never stop hearing or following Christ. All true believe will continue in their faith or they are not true believers. Also, there are no conditional clauses found in the John passage. If there is where is it? All conditional clauses in the Greek begin with an "if." Where do you find an "if" in the passage?

I think you are close to the LDS train of thought. True believers will indeed continue to hear and follow, but LDS believe that one can lose their belief thru sin. That does not take away that they truly believed at one time.

Judas is a good example. Judas heard the Savior's voice and followed Him. But somewhere along the line, he chose to fall away, and betrayed the Savior. King David is another example of an elect person of the Lord falling from grace. When David first saw Bathsheba bathing on the roof top he should have walked away, but he decided to stop following the Lord and ventured on to his own. You would state that King David was never a "true" believer. LDS say that he was always a true believer, but did not continue to hear and follow.

It is AFTER eternal life is given, that no man can pluck them out of His hand...until then we need to continue to hear and follow.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, why not? It seems reasonable to me that there might be simply because of the special relationship God has with Israel. Im not offerring that as evidence that there is one. I'm simply saying that it is entirely reasonable that there could be.

Having written that. I would maintain that the gospel of the kingdom is a separate gospel. That throughout the OT the jews were given signs to look for for the Messiah who will rulle the world. And, that that is a separate gospel. And of course, at Israel's rejection of Christ as the Messiah, we have a new gospel. However, this gospel is not something conjured up at the last minute because Israel foiled God's plan. I would maintain that this gospel had been hinted at from the beginning. There's a verse about "the root of Jesse" that I believe applies here, though I can't be sure as I am not at my office right now.

No, the point applies to all pre-atonement, pre-resurrection jews. Which is why, repentance or born again has very little to do with being sorry for ones sins, though a result of it for sure. The context remains, Jesus is till preaching to Israel that He is the Messiah and to usher in the Kingdom they must accept Him as Messiah/King. This individual one can forcefully claim is representative of the unbelieving jewish mindset - however, it has nothing to say to a gentile, who did not have the law, did not have the OT scriptures that detailed what to look for in the Messiah/King. To be sure, there were gentile converts, but on a national scale, gentiles did not have the same responsibilities.

Just simply saying "no it does not" doesn't make it so Hoops, that is all you have done in your giant non answer.

You seriously want to argue that when Christ was talking to Nicodemas that that is only for him and the Jews?

Several other Christians disagree with you. And I don't mean LDS Christians but main stream christians.

Under the law of moses gentiles that convereted would have the same obliagations. Ruth is a prime example of a gentile convert. Or was it Ruths hand madain. I can't remember.

I just find it silly to think that what Christ says doesn't apply to you. What an interesting approach.