The Problem of Salvation

[Vance]

Jesus said

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And,

Jesus said,

Matthew 28:19

[mrmendoza]

Boy Darrel, you sure know how to hijack a thread don't you? So, let me ask you a question. I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restoried Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restoried Gospel?

Mike

[DLClark]

Jesus said

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And,

Jesus said,

Matthew 28:19

[DLClark]

Boy Darrel, you sure know how to hijack a thread don't you? So, let me ask you a question. I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restoried Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restoried Gospel?

Mike

Please remember one of two things could have happned to you.

1. You may have never beensaved in the first plce. Not all faith is salvic.

2. You are saved but have been led astray byt Mormonism.

Q. Mormonism teached that a person is saved by grace after he has done all he can do.

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Read 1 John 2:19 to see that if you left the Christian faith and entered Mormonism you never were sved in the first place or you never would have left. by the way Mormonism is not the restored gospel. The Message and the Word of God, The Bible, has never ever been lost.

The Word of God has never been lost or destroyed.

The Christian church has never been destroyed. It endures forever.

So I believe you were never saved in the first place.

1 Peter 1:24-25

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

KJV

Matt 16:18

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

KJV

A testimony never saves anyone. Only Christ does the saving because He is the only One, True, Eternal, Creator God that is able to save us.

Boy Darrel, you sure know how to hijack a thread don't you? So, let me ask you a question. I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restoried Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restoried Gospel?

Mike

Please remember one of two things could have happned to you.

1. You may have never beensaved in the first plce. Not all faith is salvic.

2. You are saved but have been led astray byt Mormonism.

Q. Mormonism teached that a person is saved by grace after he has done all he can do.

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Read 1 John 2:19 to see that if you left the Christian faith and entered Mormonism you never were sved in the first place or you never would have left. by the way Mormonism is not the restored gospel. The Message and the Word of God, The Bible, has never ever been lost.

The Word of God has never been lost or destroyed.

The Christian church has never been destroyed. It endures forever.

So I believe you were never saved in the first place.

1 Peter 1:24-25

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

KJV

Matt 16:18

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

KJV

DLC

Acts 4:12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

Jesus said

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And,

Jesus said,

Matthew 28:19

[DLClark]

So no one saw Jesus?

Silly question, of course people saw Jesus. Read John 1:14.

DLC

[Vance]

Mark 16:16 says that unbelief brings damnation. Not unbelief and not being baptized bring damnation. The only thing that the Bible says that condemns a person is unbelief. Show me a passage that says not being baptized rings damnation.

With Matt 18. I agree that baptism is important but it has not saving merit. Only christ saves us when we place our trust in Him. this passage never says that water baptism saves us. The passage has teaching first in its list and this is where a person hears the gospel believes and is saved. Then after salvation the saved sinner is to be baptized. This order never changes in the Bible.

DLC

Do unbelievers get baptized? No.

The verse is perfectly clear, those that believe AND ARE BAPTIZED are saved, for (James 2:19) . . . the devils also believe, and tremble.

Why is baptism important if it has no saving merit? If it has no saving merit THEN it isn't important!

You continue to argue that salvation comes first then baptism, even though you have been shown that this is an erroneous understanding.

Believing comes first, then baptism. Salvation doesn't come UNTIL AFTER death.

Paul told the BELIEVERS (Philip. 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why did they need to work out their salvation if they were already saved?

And we have this;

Rom. 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

What had the Romans saints done so that their salvation was nearer (yet still unachieved) than when they believed?

Even Paul admitted that his salvation was yet unachieved (See Philip. 1:19) AND notice here, the future tense used (Rom. 5) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And you have the words of the Christ. (Matt. 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name

[Vance]

Silly question, of course people saw Jesus. Read John 1:14.

DLC

So then logically speak, if people saw Jesus and if Jesus is God, THEN people saw God!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vance]

Read John 3:15-18 and tell me what saves us and what condemn us>

DLC

Can you truly believe IN Jesus Christ WITHOUT believing and DOING ALL that He said/taught?

Are you a disciple if you only give lip service to His teachings?

When Christ taught that you must be born again, of the water (baptism) and of the Spirit, do you believe Him?

[DLClark]

A.W. Tozer comments upon the understanding of the One , True Living Creator Eternal God, Jesus Christ, and what false religions think. These words are prophetic of our time. Please take them to heart. The God of Mormonism and the One True Creator God of the Bible are not the same God.

[DLClark]

A.W. Tozer comments upon the understanding of the One , True Living Creator Eternal God, Jesus Christ, and what false religions think. These words are prophetic of our time. Please take them to heart. The false gods of the world and the One True Creator God of the Bible are not the same God.

[Vance]

Blah, blah, blah.

DLC

Sermonizing is inappropriate behavior on this board. STOP the PREACHING!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW the God of Mormonism IS the TRUE and LIVING GOD (of the Bible and otherwise)!!

And your rants and ravings don't change that FACT!!!

It is standard tactic for those who are losing the argument to change the subject. Your actions here clearly indicate that you are losing the argument and you KNOW it.

[mrmendoza]

A testimony never saves anyone. Only Christ does the saving because He is the only One, True, Eternal, Creator God that is able to save us.

DLC

True enough, but if you have no testimony, then how do you know you're saved? You have said that we must repent and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior to be saved. I have done that, even before I knew anything about Mormonism. Was I not saved? If you don't have a testimony that you're saved, then how can you ever be sure?

1. You may have never been saved in the first plce. Not all faith is salvic.

Now, after all the Biblical quotes you've been pouring out on this thread and others, yor're saying that my faith in Jesus, which as near as I can tell, followed the path that you've been preaching to all of us, was not unto salvation? Well I guess that throws your assertation of the security of the believer, right out the window, doesn't it? Either that or the believer is only saved as long as he stays faithful, oh wait, that's the same thing isn't it?

If faith in The Lord Jesus Christ alone does not save us then

James 2;17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So I believe you were never saved in the first place.

Of course you do, that's the only way your argument has any chance of standing . No, wait, you already just destroyed your argument by telling me that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ might not be enough!

I believe you are either confused, decieved, or ignorant, and from what you've shown me so far I think all three would apply!

Mike

[DLClark]

Sermonizing is inappropriate behavior on this board. STOP the PREACHING!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW the God of Mormonism IS the TRUE and LIVING GOD (of the Bible and otherwise)!!

And your rants and ravings don't change that FACT!!!

It is standard tactic for those who are losing the argument to change the subject. Your actions here clearly indicate that you are losing the argument and you KNOW it.

Mormonism teaches that man must work his way to heaven. The Bible we are saved by grace through faith aprt from works.

Q. Have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace?

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is a gift to us from God. Have you ver known a person working for a gift?

Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

KJV

1 John 5:20

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

KJV

Isa 44:6

'I am the first and I am the last,

And there is no God besides Me.

Now if the One, True, Living, Creator, God of the Bible is the first and the last, howmany gods are there?

Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God. We have never seen God the Father. Jesus is the exact repesentation of God manifested to us in human form.

Phil 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form (form "morphe" exact resprentation of God)of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

1 John 5:20

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

KJV

Christ is uncreated for everything there ever has been that has been made He created it.

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

KJV

Col 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

KJV

There never was a time when Jesus not God eternal. Notice that the bible even call Him God the Father.

Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

KJV

DLC

[Vance]

It is standard tactic for those who are losing the argument to change the subject. Your actions here clearly indicate that you are losing the argument and you KNOW it.

[DLClark]

True enough, but if you have no testimony, then how do you know you're saved? You have said that we must repent and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior to be saved. I have done that, even before I knew anything about Mormonism. Was I not saved? If you don't have a testimony that you're saved, then how can you ever be sure?

Now, after all the Biblical quotes you've been pouring out on this thread and others, yor're saying that my faith in Jesus, which as near as I can tell, followed the path that you've been preaching to all of us, was not unto salvation? Well I guess that throws your assertation of the security of the believer, right out the window, doesn't it? Either that or the believer is only saved as long as he stays faithful, oh wait, that's the same thing isn't it?

If faith in The Lord Jesus Christ alone does not save us then

Of course you do, that's the only way your argument has any chance of standing . No, wait, you already just destroyed your argument by telling me that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ might not be enough!

I believe you are either confused, decieved, or ignorant, and from what you've shown me so far I think all three would apply!

Mike

we are not saved by our testimony. Christ is the only one who saves usnot our testimony. How do I know that I am saved. The Bible has the answer.

Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

KJV

Rom 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

KJV

DLC

[Vance]

Mormonism teaches that man must work his way to heaven.

Another CLUELESS anti-mormon. You obviously are ignorant of what Mormonism really teaches. I am not surprised.

[Vance]

How do I know that I am saved.

You are not saved. You haven't endured to the end, yet. Salvation comes after death.

[DLClark]

Another CLUELESS anti-mormon. You obviously are ignorant of what Mormonism really teaches. I am not surprised.

Not at all. I know very well what you teach. I can show you from the book that is given to all converts to Mormonis where it says that you guys can become a god. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. The Bible is purley monotheistic. We believe only on one True and Living Creator God Jesus Christ.

Eph 4:6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KJV

1 Cor 8:6

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV

1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

KJV

James 2:19

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:

KJV

1 John 5:20

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

KJV

DLC

[Vance]

Have you ver known a person working for a gift?

Yup, it happens all the time. If you promise your child that if they get good grades you will give them a car. If they then work for the gift, does that make it not a gift?

(Clue: good grades doesn't earn the car, else everyone who has had good grades will get a car. Get it?)

[Zakuska]

You are not saved. You haven't endured to the end, yet. Salvation comes after death.

Very true! Notice how Paul didn't think he was saved yet either...

Philip 3

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[Vance]

Not at all. I know very well what you teach.

NOPE!!!

You have clearly shown that you don't have a clue.

We do teach that we are saved by grace!

2 Ne. 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

2 Ne. 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

[Zakuska]

Not at all. I know very well what you teach. I can show you from the book that is given to all converts to Mormonis where it says that you guys can become a god. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. The Bible is purley monotheistic. We believe only on one True and Living Creator God Jesus Christ.

How can God have a God?

John 20

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not at all. I know very well what you teach. I can show you from the book that is given to all converts to Mormonis where it says that you guys can become a god.

Good for you, but we are not talking about becomming a god are we? We are talking about by what means on is saved.

Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. The Bible is purley monotheistic. DLC

THe bible is not purley monotheistic. You could not have said a more false phrase. You are a confused person. Is God a God of false gods?

If you say yes then you must fully realise the implications of such and what that makes God.

[Zakuska]

Yeah... what he said.

[high five mola]