Vance Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 STILL waiting for the verses that clearly and plainly show that baptism ISN'T necessary. It is standard tactic for those who are losing the argument to change the subject. Your actions here clearly indicate that you are losing the argument and you KNOW it. So now that you have thrown out a bunch of RED HERRINGS can we get back to the topic we were discussing? It would be nice to resolve it BEFORE we move on to another topic.SO!!!!!!!!!Provide verses the clearly and plainly show that baptism isn't necessary OR concede!(high fives to Mola, Zak and Mike)
mrmendoza Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 we are not saved by our testimony. Christ is the only one who saves usnot our testimony. How do I know that I am saved. The Bible has the answer. Rom 8:9DLC1John 5:6-10 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. We define testimony as the spirit bearing witness. Are you saying that those who are saved don't need the spirit bearing witness of their salvation? I have the witness of God within me. Do you?And why is it that you just fall back on trite sayings like " We are not saved by our testimony"? What does that mean except that you don't know how to give a real answer to what's been said? Nobody that I ever heard of here has ever said that we're saved by our testimony, only that our testimony lets us know that we're on the right path! I guess since you don't seem to have a testimony of anything except to quote the Bible a lot I'd have to say that maybe you're the one who was never saved in the first place, otherwise you'd know it by the witness of the spirit! Well I'd like to say something like that, but I can't do that because, then I'd be judgeing you with the same unrightous spirit that you're judgeing me by!Mike
DLClark Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 You are not saved. You haven't endured to the end, yet. Salvation comes after death.Enduriing to the end never saved any one. How hard does one have to endure to be saved? what if you stop then start enduring does that disqualify you? Eph 2:8-98 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.KJVI gave you passage that confirm that water baptism never saves. The Bible ONLY says that unbelief condemn us. Not belieng baptized is never stated in the Bible to condemn any one.Mark 16:1616 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJVJohn 3:14-1814 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.KJVJohn 3:3636 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.KJV1 Cor 15:1-415:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:KJVBelief saves us and unbelief condemns.Q. Can you provide a verse that says that if a person is not baptized he is not saved?DLC
DLClark Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Good for you, but we are not talking about becomming a god are we? We are talking about by what means on is saved.THe bible is not purley monotheistic. You could not have said a more false phrase. You are a confused person. Is God a God of false gods?If you say yes then you must fully realise the implications of such and what that makes God.Again all false gods are just that false made in the imaginations of mens minds. False means just what it says"Contrary to fact or truth, intentionally deceptive. Arising from istaken ideas."A false god is not god at all. there is only one true God of the Bible. Can you please answer this question?The Bible says this: Isa 44:66 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.KJVQ. Now if the God of the Bible is the first and the last, how many Gods are there? DLC
DLClark Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 NOPE!!!You have clearly shown that you don't have a clue.We do teach that we are saved by grace!2 Ne. 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.2 Ne. 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.that is not grace. Grace does not come to a person after doing all they can.Q. Have you honestly done or are doing all you cna do to be saved by grace?Grace is unmerited favor. Here is why.Rom 11:66 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.KJVWe do not earn salvation. It come s to the believer as a gift from God. Eph 2:8-98 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.KJVRom 6:2323 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.KJVGod qualifies us for heaven and us by our good works.Col 1:1212 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. DLC
DLClark Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 We define testimony as the spirit bearing witness. Are you saying that those who are saved don't need the spirit bearing witness of their salvation? I have the witness of God within me. Do you?And why is it that you just fall back on trite sayings like " We are not saved by our testimony"? What does that mean except that you don't know how to give a real answer to what's been said? Nobody that I ever heard of here has ever said that we're saved by our testimony, only that our testimony lets us know that we're on the right path! I guess since you don't seem to have a testimony of anything except to quote the Bible a lot I'd have to say that maybe you're the one who was never saved in the first place, otherwise you'd know it by the witness of the spirit! Well I'd like to say something like that, but I can't do that because, then I'd be judgeing you with the same unrightous spirit that you're judgeing me by!MikeYou said that you knew that you weresaved because you had a testimony. the only conclusion I can come up with is that you think a testamony saves. You said that I must not be saved because I do not have one. The only conclusion is that you believe your testimony saves. The bible says that we are not saved by our good works or enduring to the end or being our testimony. Eph 2:8-98 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.KJV2 Tim 1:8-98 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,DLC
DLClark Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Except that by Jesus' words, being born of water and of spirit is required to enter the kindom of God. And as the scriptures have stated, baptism is the ordinance by which we are born of water and by spirit. We are laid down in the water in a symbolic death of the sinful man, and come up out of the water in a symbolic resurrection, or re-birth unto a spiritual man, a newness of life. An ordinance that mirrors Jesus' death and resurrection. It seems that you are placing more emphasis on the words of the apostles, rather than the words of Christ. Take the words of Christ and see how the words of the apostles support what He has said.If Baptism was not important, why was John, the greatest prophet ever to have lived by Jesus' words, the Baptist's role to preach repentance and baptism. Why did Jesus send His apostles out to preach the word and baptize? Why did some baptisms have to be re-done, if they weren't important or required?Filth of the flesh is removed through repentance and baptism. The physical act of baptism does not remove it, but God removes it when we submit to His will and have the ordinance of baptism performed...by one in authority.Baptism is not salvation, but it is the first step towards it.Q. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is condemned?The Bible does that unbelief condemns, John 3:15-18.DLC
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Q. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is condemned?The Bible does that unbelief condemns, John 3:15-18.DLCLogic follows that if you are saved by faith, and are baptised for the remission of sins, recieving the gift of the HG and enduring to the end, then reason stands that if you fail to do one of those then you are not saved.Jesus said that if you "endure to the end then you shall be saved". You need works to make your faith alive, you fail to do works then you cannot claim salvation. If Peter tells us that Baptism doth now save you, then reason stands that if you are not baptised you are not saved.But we have been over this before, and I don't care to rehash this.Show me one verse were it tells me that all I need is faith alone to be saved. I need the verse to use "faith alone". I can't find it.
Zakuska Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Q. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is condemned?The Bible does that unbelief condemns, John 3:15-18.DLCHere is the paradox of your position DLCLARK.On the one hand Paul says...Rom. 10: 13 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But the Lord of Life, Jesus Christ says...Matt 7 21
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Here is the paradox of your position DLCLARK.On the one hand Paul says...Rom. 10: 13 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But the Lord of Life, Jesus Christ says...Matt 7 21
Zakuska Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Matt. 24: 13 13 But he that shall aendure unto the end, the same shall be saved. I thought all I needed to do was believe. This verse also has major implications on once saved always saved. If one fails to endure ot the end it would seem that you would not be saved.The parable of the sower does too...Luke 8 4
mrmendoza Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 You said that you knew that you weresaved because you had a testimony. the only conclusion I can come up with is that you think a testamony saves. You said that I must not be saved because I do not have one. The only conclusion is that you believe your testimony saves. You twist words as bad as you do the scriptures! I didn't say that I was saved by my testimony and you know it! What I am saying is that I know that I am saved because my testimony has witnessed it to me! Or maybe , to put it into words you can actually understand, my testimony informs me that I'm on the right path. But you aren't even smart enough to see that the very scripture that you're throwing at me is exactly what I'm talking about!2 Tim 1:8-98 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,I am not ashamed of my testimony of the Lord and your word twisting, scripture twisting, antics only show your basic dishonesty, and /or ignorance of what we have said and are trying to get accross to to those of you who have blinded yourselves, by your arrogant assumption of intelligence!And you still haven't answered the question. How will you know that you are saved, unless the spirit bears witness (testifies) to you that you are? Show me you salvation without a testimony, and I'll show you mine by my testimony!Mike
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 The parable of the sower does too...MAN! That verse right there blows the EV beleif right out of the water...13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.There is no... "you were never realy saved in the first place" argumrent.[down low mola] Oh boy. THat is some good stuff. That is obvious. Were has this been in the debates?
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Logic follows that if you are saved by faith, and are baptised for the remission of sins, recieving the gift of the HG and enduring to the end, then reason stands that if you fail to do one of those then you are not saved.Jesus said that if you "endure to the end then you shall be saved". You need works to make your faith alive, you fail to do works then you cannot claim salvation. If Peter tells us that Baptism doth now save you, then reason stands that if you are not baptised you are not saved.But we have been over this before, and I don't care to rehash this.Show me one verse were it tells me that all I need is faith alone to be saved. I need the verse to use "faith alone". I can't find it.Here is the naswer to your question.John 3:15-18. tell me whar saves and what condemns? Acts 16:31. Is there anthing else that is mentioned here outside of faith that is needed for salvation? Eph 2:8-9. What does this passage say will bring salvation? Is water baptism found here? Not at all. Romans 5:1 Does this verse says that faith bring justification and peace with God?The reason why we say faith alone saves is because faith stand alone as all that is needed to bring salvation.Q. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is not saved?DLC
Zakuska Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Here is the naswer to your question.John 3:15-18. tell me whar saves and what condemns? Acts 16:31. Is there anthing else that is mentioned here outside of faith that is needed for salvation? Eph 2:8-9. What does this passage say will bring salvation? Is water baptism found here? Not at all. Romans 5:1 Does this verse says that faith bring justification and peace with God?The reason why we say faith alone saves is because faith stand alone as all that is needed to bring salvation.Q. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is not saved?DLCJames 2: 19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. So according to your logic Devils are saved?
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 James 2: 19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. So according to your logic Devils are saved?You know very well that not every type of faith is salvic. Only that faith which trust Jesus Christ alone as his personal Savior is salvic. The deonms are not saved and you know it. They just have an intellectual faith that is all.Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that say that if a person has not been baptized he is not saved?DLC
Zakuska Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 You know very well that not every type of faith is salvic. Only that faith which trust Jesus Christ alone as his personal Savior is salvic. The deonms are not saved and you know it. They just have an intellectual faith that is all.Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that say that if a person has not been baptized he is not saved?DLCJohn 3:5
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 You know very well that not every type of faith is salvic. Only that faith which trust Jesus Christ alone as his personal Savior is salvic. The deonms are not saved and you know it. They just have an intellectual faith that is all.Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that say that if a person has not been baptized he is not saved?DLCFaith is faith dude, your equivocating here.The scirpture tell us that we just need to beleive. It never once says that we need "salvic faith". I don't even know the difference.
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 John 3:5Here is John 3 :5. Where does it say in this verse that if one is not baptized he is lost?John 3:55 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.KJVJohn 3:14-18 explains John 3:5. Jesus had a clear opportunity to include water baptism as necessary for salvation but he did not because it is not salvic. Only faith saves and not believing condemns. John 3:14-1814 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.KJVNow please show me one verse that says that if a person has not been baptized he is lost?Water baptism is a ritual act that symbolizes a spiritual truth or reality. It is a public confession which portrays one
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Justification and Human WorksGod is the one who justifies that sinner and us by our faith/work system. God is the judge, he is the one makes us righteous. How does He do that? By making us the righteousness of God in Christ, 2 Cor, 5:2, by making many righteous, Romans 5:19, by giving us THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, Romans 5L17. Who receives this GIFT of righteousness? The one "who has faith in Jesus" Romans 3:26. Then what happens? God justifies him-announces him righteous in Christ. And at the same time God remains absolutely just Romans 3:26. Many misconceive justification as making us righteous rather that declaring us righteous. In other words, they think that our inward holiness, if enough, will cause God to rule in our favor. Our good works which make us righteous to one degree or another will result in some degree of justification. According to this misconception, justification can grow as we grow more righteous, and justification can be diminished and even lost if we become less righteous. Even though we acknowledge that God enable us to do good works, in the final analysis justification depends on us. And when would we know whether or not we had done enough good works to merit sufficient justification to gain heaven? How dedicated must I be in order to be justified? And for long during my Christian life? Justification does not make anyone righteous; either we are or we are not. And if we are, then God announces it so, and that is justification. Notice Luke 7:29, "And all people that heard Him, and the publicans, justified God." Obviously, the people did not make God righteous. They merely declared that He was, that He existed. If justification does not make us righteous, what does? Too, if we cannot make ourselves righteous enough to satisfy a holy God, what hope it there that anyone can ever be justified? Will God have to condemn all people? Or can He lower His standards enough to let some into heaven? Or is there some other way He can change the sinner into a truly righteous person so that He can truly announce it so? And how does God do that? By joining us to Jesus Christ when we believe. And because, then, we are in Christ, we have His perfect righteousness imputed to us, that is, placed on our account, so that we are in reality righteous in God
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Peace with GodThe issue here is how do we have peace with God; through faith alone or through a Faith/work system. Please remember that the gospel is the gospel of peace Eph. 6:15 God makes peace through the blood of the cross of Christ (Colossians 1:20). Peace with God come through Jesus Christ and is a real possibility for all who have faith with God. The perfection of our Savior establishes the basis for our peace with God. His work on the cross is the means by which we who are sinful can be at peace with our holy God. Nothing else avails to bring us into right relationship with Him. We are incapable of making peace ourselves. We are also incapable of maintaining peace with God through our good works. We are incapable of maintaining peace with God if our relationship with Him is based on anything other than the firm foundation of the Just One who dies for the unjust, the Savior who gave His life as a ransom for many, the Shepherd who gave Hid life for the sheep. Rom 3:24-2624 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NASUGod, by His grace, justifies men freely, as a gift, without cost. God then, in the above verses, is described as the "justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." It should be noted that the term "justification" and "righteousness," along with their related verbal forms, "to justify' and "to make righteous," refer to the same thing. They are simply two English terms used to translate the same Greek term dikaiosuna, dikaio.God justifies, God makes righteous, on the basis of the works of another- Jesus Christ. People do not justify themselves. Then are all justified? No, for all do not have faith. Paul goes on to describe the means of justification -it is by faith, and faith alone. Paul writes:Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.NASUThen He says:Rom 4:4-5Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,NASUThose who have faith in Jesus Christ appropriate His righteousness. His perfect righteousness is "imputed" to the believer on the basis of faith. It is not credited to those who work to gain it but to those who trust in the all-sufficient Savior alone. Rom 9:30-10:4What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."Romans 1010:1 The Word of Faith Brings Salvation Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NASUWhy does God make the passive act of faith the means of justification? The Bible has a ready answer:Rom 4:16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,NASU(Notice that this faith principle for justification is applied to two groups. Those who are "of the Law" and those who are "of the faith of Abraham." We might say that all making is justified by faith for those of the Law and of the faith of Abraham covers all of us. Paul is not refuting the Law principle but also establishing the faith principle that was in existence before the law.) Justification is by faith because it is in harmony with grace. Grace (the unmerited favor of God) cannot be earned, purchased, or merited. By nature it is free. Faith has no merit in and of itself. It performs no meritorious work so as to gain grace or favor. It trusts in the Giver of grace and is the only basis by which God declares a sinner, in light of the work of Christ, "righteous."This then is how one has peace with God, for one being justified by grace we then have peace with God. Rom 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus ChristPaul is very clear here when He states that when we are justified by faith before God, we have peace with God. Those who are not justified by faith cannot claim peace with God. Those who are justified by faith are assured of that peace. The deepests need of any human being is to have peace with God. That need can only be obtained through the justifying work of God in Jesus Christ. This may sound too simple. For many this idea from the Bible is according to Paul's words, 1 Cor 1:18-19For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NASUThe very foolishness of the preaching of the Cross displays the wisdom of God. DLV
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Mark 16:16There are a number of clear and compelling reasons why we can be sure that Mark 16:16 isn
Vance Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Q. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that if a person is not baptized he is not saved?DLCJohn 3:5
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.