The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Titus 3:5 please. Also why do select a few things you think are needed for salvaion and not other things that Jesus said.

He said to the your rich man to sell all of his good and give the money to the poor and you will be saved. Have you done that? Luke 18:22-23

2 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack;sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

[Vance]

Just answer the question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace? Individual salvation that is.

DLC

What separates the goats from the sheep?

[Doctor Steuss]

Titus 3:5 please. Also why do select a few things you think are needed for salvaion and not other things that Jesus said.

He said to the your rich man to sell all of his good and give the money to the poor and you will be saved. Have you done that? Luke 18:22-23

2 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack;sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

Numbers 11:18 (NLT)

"And tell the people to purify themselves, for tomorrow they will have meat to eat. Tell them, 'The LORD has heard your whining and complaints: "If only we had meat to eat! Surely we were better off in Egypt!" Now the LORD will give you meat, and you will have to eat it. And it won't be for just a day or two, or for five or ten or even twenty. You will eat it for a whole month until you gag and are sick of it. For you have rejected the LORD, who is here among you, and you have complained to him, "Why did we ever leave Egypt?"

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

[Doctor Steuss]

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

DLClark,

I know we won't ever be able to get you to stop stealing from other people (I mean, writing from the grave), or from misinterpreting the religious writ of others (I mean

[Lightbearer]

I repost this in the hope that DLClark can actually answer this verse instead of spouting the usual "saved by grace proof texts" in the hope that nobody will notice that his argument is flawed and with this scripture his grace alone straw man falls to the ground:

DLClark, on 16 November 2009 - 10:54 AM, said:

PS. No verse in the Bible teaches that we can lose our salvation. If you think a passage teaches that then you have not done your exegesis of that passage very well. Remember you must understand the passage in the context for which it is written. Context is everything for understanig what the passage is teaching.

So in other words if one does not follow your deluded idea that if we are "once saved always saved" then obviously we are not interpreting it right! Are you assuming that you know the context for which all the scriptures are written? What pray tell does Peter mean here:

(2 Peter 2:20-22) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

I do not understand how you can twist these words into your "once saved always saved by grace alone" fantasy. Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to say Peter was talking about those "who were not really saved" because the text states that the people referred to had once already escaped sin through Christ (saved) and they had become entangled again (sinning). That means they were believers and that they had returned to their old way of life, a life of sin.

In addition to the above post I suggest also the following:

(2 Peter 1:1-11) "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

It appears that through our diligence and adding to our faith righteous works we make our calling an election sure and that is the only way we can never fall from grace!

[DLClark]

Just answer the question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

Not true if you are including works as means of salvation, Titus 3:5. Example, the thief on the cross was saved but had no works. You must be saved first before you can put your faith into practice.

Is Eph 2:8-9 true?

Paul says that salvation is a gift to us from God. When do you have to work in order to receive a gift? If you have to work then salvation is not a gift but a wage and Bible condemns that idea.

q. Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

[Vance]

STILL AVOIDING THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!

It must really scare you to answer this question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

[GingerRed]

DLClark

You are unbeleivable, you know that?

I have read this whole thread...and it amazes me how you can't asnswer a direct yes or no question to save your life! LOL

Why can't you just agree to disagree? You have gotten so repetative, its getting boring...this has been nothing but a Bible quote war....slinging contradicting scripture back and forth like mud. Quite amusing really. You don't listen and you don't read. No matter HOW many times it is explained to you our beliefs, and point out what is incorrect, you STILL spout it off.

(where the heck is Hoops?? I can't believe he hasn't jumped into this fray by now...this is old hat to him...LOL)

DC...keep in mind you are not the first ( nor will you be the last) EV to come on here and spit out quote after quote until you are blue in the face, and not one Mormon here, including myself, has bugded an inch torward your beliefs. And telling us we follow a ' false religion' doesn't go over vey well, okay? You can't prove that. All you can do is tell us YOUR interpetation of the scriptures and thats all you can do. You don't speak for God. You can't say things like. "Joseph Smith could not have seen God without dying..." Again, who are YOU to tell God what He can and can't do?? If the Lord felt His Gospel had gone astray to the point of He had to do something about it personally and the time had come for prophets to live again in this dispensation, then that's HIS perrogative! You have NO right to speak for Him. If God wants to speak to His children, He doesn't need Bible scripture to do that! He can appear to whomever He chooses whenever He pleases!

All I can say to you....is when you die, you will know who was right and who was wrong. If I were you, I'd be scared to meet my Maker in your shoes...for going after the Lord's Annonited is a pretty big boo-boo, not taken lightly. But...there needs to be opposition in all things. You my friend, got that honor, unfortunalty.

So why not give it a rest, huh? This going around in circles is pointless,...and this thread will probably be locked soon. Go take a break and relax....go find some other forum to harrass for a while....

Red

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

STILL AVOIDING THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!

It must really scare you to answer this question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

My question is simple too. I can't get DLClark to answer it. What separates the sheep and the goats?

[Lightbearer]

Try this on for size:

(Matthew 7:21-27) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

To be founded upon a rock, you must DO not believe only. So here again faith if it is without works is DEAD.

[Zakuska]

Apparently DLClark did not see my response to him... or... he is too embarased to acknowledge it. So I will repeat it.

The demon know all the facts about Christ but have not commited themselves to Him in saving faith.

DLC

This is just another way of saying the demons don't do works Meet for repentance. You couldn't separate works from the equation of Salvation if you tried so why are you trying SOOOOO hard to do it?

Q: Now, if a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ like Paul here says to do will they be saved as Paul say they will?

I think its best to let Paul answer your question for you:

Acts 16

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

After they were Baptized in water they were saved... just like Paul said they would be.

Now I have a Question for you...

Q: Can you have Salvation from Jesus if you fail to obey his commandments?

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Got to love all those Baptism verses in Acts!

[Flyonthewall]

Now when you turn to James please find a verse there that says your saved by works. James is not talking about how to be saved but what to do with the saving faith that we have. If we are saved good work should follow. Paul said that is the reason why God saved us, to show forth our faith with out works. No passage in the Bible says that we are saved by works. Works are the end result or fruit of our salvation. Never the means to obtaining salvation.

Let's take a look at James:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Answer this question. James asks it, what is your answer?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Here is another question for you...Can dead faith save?

Two very simple questions. Please do not throw scriptures out because I do not see that they support your statements. I would like to see/hear your take on them.

If you think other wise then here is a question for you honestly answer;

Q. Have you done ALL that you can do in order to merit being saved by grace?

Already answered.

Honestly now,

have you ever lied? If so you have not done all that you can do becuause you have lied.

Have you been angry? Being angry diqualifies you from individual salvation.

Have you ever done your good works with the wrong attitude?

Have you ever coveted?

Have you ever been jealous?

Have you ever faied to love the Lord with all of your heart?

If you done any othe these things just ones you are disqualified from heaven even individual and general salvation.

I have done all of these things, yet through the atonement of Christ, I can still "get to heaven".

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Look at the entire book of James, not just one sentence that you think supports your view, and no one else's. Really, this scripture in no way discredits our view point.

Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.KJV

Can you not see that this is a reference of the Law of Moses? The works of the Law of Moses does not save that is plain. The Law of Grace demands works, but not the works of the Law of Moses. What kind of works does the law of Grace require? Well James answers that.

Here are my two questions to you DLClark, please answer them in your own words:

1)What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2)Can dead faith save?

I await my your answers.

[Tanyan]

Ah, Baptism of Water [and the Spirit] both are essential and required for full Salvation.

From some of our Christian friends who agree with us on this vital doctrine.

http://www.angelfire...Ibebaptized.htm

http://www.godtellsu...outbaptism.html

http://www.bible.ca/...forgiveness.htm

http://www.bible.ca/...m-essential-htm

And there is much more from the early Apostalic Fathers on the importance and necessity of water baptism for accessing Jesus Christs Atonement/Sacrifice for us.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[DLClark]

My question is simple too. I can't get DLClark to answer it. What separates the sheep and the goats?

This section of the Olivet discourse is dealing with the judgment of the nations. Matt 24:4-31 answers the question the disciples had about the signs of the end of the ageand the return of the Lord. This section in Matt 25 beginning at v. 31 Jesus is describing the period following His second coming. Jesus here is not talking about a general judgment. There is no mention of reurrection of either the righteous or the wicked, and "all nations" seems to exclude Israel. This passage more precisely than any other of the judgments found in the Bible describes the judgment of the world at the beginning of Christ's millennial kingdom. The church is already with the Lord and saved based on their faith in Him not on their good work. The time of judgment is found in Matt 25:31. this happens when the Christ returnes. Remember that Romans 8:1 says that for those who are in Christ there is no condemnation. We are placed in Christ the very moment we are saved. Romans 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13.

There are only two places people can go. everlasting punishment for those who reject Christ and eternal life for those trust Him. When we compare the two judicial sentences we discover some interesting facts. The sheep were blessed of the Father; but it does not say that the goats were cursed of the Father. The sheep inherit the kingdom not based on their works but because they had the right blood line. Inheritance is based on belonging to the right family. For the Christian we inheritit eternal life by faith in Christ not based on our good works. The sheep here had been born again through faith, they inherited the kingdom. This passage is part of the Olivet discourse. It is dealing with Israel and that Israel would be purified and brought into the Kingdom through their faith in Christ/Messiah. God has not cast His people away.

Q Please sanswer my question mow. Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

[DLClark]

Ah, Baptism of Water [and the Spirit] both are essential and required for full Salvation.

From some of our Christian friends who agree with us on this vital doctrine.

http://www.angelfire...Ibebaptized.htm

http://www.godtellsu...outbaptism.html

http://www.bible.ca/...forgiveness.htm

http://www.bible.ca/...m-essential-htm

And there is much more from the early Apostalic Fathers on the importance and necessity of water baptism for accessing Jesus Christs Atonement/Sacrifice for us.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Water baptism does save us. Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us

KJV

2 Tim 1:9

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity

NASU

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV

Isa 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

Ah, Baptism of Water [and the Spirit] both are essential and required for full Salvation.

From some of our Christian friends who agree with us on this vital doctrine.

http://www.angelfire...Ibebaptized.htm

http://www.godtellsu...outbaptism.html

http://www.bible.ca/...forgiveness.htm

http://www.bible.ca/...m-essential-htm

And there is much more from the early Apostalic Fathers on the importance and necessity of water baptism for accessing Jesus Christs Atonement/Sacrifice for us.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Here is a very simple for you to answer. Where in the Bible does it say that if you are not baptized you are not saved?

DLC

[Vance]

Here is a very simple for you to answer. Where in the Bible does it say that if you are not baptized you are not saved?

DLC

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[DLClark]

Ah, Baptism of Water [and the Spirit] both are essential and required for full Salvation.

From some of our Christian friends who agree with us on this vital doctrine.

http://www.angelfire...Ibebaptized.htm

http://www.godtellsu...outbaptism.html

http://www.bible.ca/...forgiveness.htm

http://www.bible.ca/...m-essential-htm

And there is much more from the early Apostalic Fathers on the importance and necessity of water baptism for accessing Jesus Christs Atonement/Sacrifice for us.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Here some information on water bpatism and the church fathers.

Water baptism was a tricky issue in the early church. As usual, I will give my short, concise answer, then follow that with a bit more historical context which will illustrate why there is not an easy answer.

The short answer is that ALL the early fathers believed that part of the conversion experience was going under the water in baptism. At the same time NONE of the early fathers said faith without baptism was impossible - in other words, NO church father argued that water baptism was required for salvation. It was simply assumed that a believer would be baptized.

Now the longer answer:

Without knowing the historical context (especially of the second century) you could read the early fathers and come away thinking that most of them believed water baptism was essential in salvation. The danger with reading the early fathers is taking them literally without knowing the historical context.

1. The early church was not "monolithic." Though the church claimed to be "catholic" (universal), sects, or "schools" of thought always existed within the church that disagreed on many, many things. "Denominations," to use a contemporary term, have always existed. What does this mean in this discussion? Church fathers were rarely in 100% agreement on many things when it came to details, thus you find different slants and views when it comes to water baptism.

2. The record in the book of Acts seems to indicate that water baptism was done fairly quickly (even immediately) after conversion. Though universally seen as something the Christian must do upo! n conver sion, by the second century baptism was typically not done immediately after conversion. This delay is probably due to the changing nature of the church, moving from a Jewish orientation to mainly a Gentile church. Jews practiced various forms of water baptism - Gentile converts needed some explanation. What you find in the records of the second century and following is a training period for a new convert to follow before he/she is allowed to celebrate the Lord's Supper or be baptized in water.

[it is called "catechesis," the Greek word that means "to sound" something. It carries the idea that "catechumens" (students) would be taught by "repeat after me," or "sound this out: 'I believe in God the Father Almighty...'."]

This training period might last a few months, but most records from the few first centuries indicate it to be more than a year of training and learning. This is evidence that these early Christians did NOT think baptism was "required" to be saved. In fact, there is mention in Origen and in the Didascalia (both early third century) that should a catechumen meet a martyr's death prior to being baptized, he/she would be saved through a "baptism of blood." This mention is made in defense of the necessity of baptism, yet is given to show that there is an exception - kind of like the thief on the cross for those who insist that water baptism is a necessity for salvation.

3. Another difficulty in reading statements by early fathers regarding water baptism is contention with heretical groups. The Marcionites, Gnostics, Montanists, and many others - all practiced their own form of baptism and all considered themselves to be "Christian." There is a great amount of difference among church fathers as to whether "converts" from these unorthodox groups should be baptized again! OR coul d their unorthodox baptism be considered sufficient. While some of these groups were certainly outside the boundaries (Gnostics and Marcionites for example), others should be seen more like a modern-day denomination (Montanists and Novatians for example) because their basic theology was not the problem. Whatever the case, dealing with unorthodox baptism muddies the water (pun intended) in this discussion.

4. Finally, due to other issues in the early church, many people would postpone their baptism until they were near death. It was commonly believed in the early church that a Christian could not commit a "mortal" sin after being baptized and have assurance of salvation. This became known as the "Second Repentance" issue [you can read my paper on the topic: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Hermas-2ndRepentance.pdf]

It is never insisted that these people were not Christian because they had not been baptized - they were just never considered fully installed in the Church...which was considered the only vehicle for obtaining the grace of Christ. You can see that this statement is kind of fuzzy - so was the position of the early church on this matter. Many people were afraid that they MIGHT commit a "mortal" sin [apostacy, adultery, fornication, and murder were the main mortal sins] and they wanted the assurance that they could repent, be forgiven, and then get baptized. Even this was a murky issue with some bishops saying that you could receive a "second" forgiveness after baptism and others (like Tertullian) saying that only God would know if you could obtain forgiveness for a mortal sin after having been baptized.

So you see, there is just not an easy answer. But if you insist, my easy answer is that NO, the early fathers did not believe water baptism was a requirement for salvation - they just assumed you would be baptized and if you were n! ot they questioned your salvation.

Q. can you show from the Bible where it says that if a person is not baptized he is not saved?

DLC

[DLClark]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

[Vance]

STILL AVOIDING THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!

It must really scare you to answer this question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

[Vance]

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

I find that if a person believes AND IS BAPTIZED he shall be saved. The verse is explicit.

And you can't provide a single verse that says that Baptism isn't necessary. Go figure.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Q Please sanswer my question mow. Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

If you did not get it the first 3 times I answered it you will never get it.

[Doctor Steuss]

Water baptism does save us.

Hi DLClark,

I

[Lightbearer]

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

What about this verse?

(1 Peter 3:21) "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Does that not say that baptism SAVES? Now is this not one scripture that states that baptism saves? Or rather baptism is a requirement for salvation. You seem to think that salvation is an event rather than a process. Enduring in faith to the end is how one is saved. It is not notching up good works, and if we have enough we are saved, it is a perfecting process which requires us to "press forward" in Christ just as Paul here states:

(Phillippians 3:12-17) "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample."

Perfection is a process and we strive for the mastery we "practice what we preach" we must follow Christ in His perfect example. Paul also compares this process to a race:

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

We must be faithful to our faith in Christ, the way we do this is by following Him on to perfection.