Healing

[ryanelwood]

If you were actually sorry, then you wouldn't be posting these comments in the first place....

Instead, you come across as taking great enjoyment at pointing out the 'stupidity' of others and just trying to excuse yourself as if you were in the grip of some uncontrollable force that just made you post something that even you recognize as "rude and disdainful".

If you are going to post something rude, at least have the guts to own it for what it is and not make excuses that it's the other guy's fault for being so stupid.

Ok, let me see if I can simplify it. Those of us that use our brains get frustrated stupidity. For us rationalists, it is like an adult still believing in Santa Clause and his magical abilities. Wouldn't you get frustrated with an adult that insists on believing in Santa and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? So what I am saying is that I am sorry, but stupidity deserves rudeness and disdain.

[Sandy Petersen]

I remember listening to a radio program in which a doctor talked about his study of prayer. He found that people who were prayed for recovered more often than those who were not. He took the trouble to identify the faiths of the patients he studied, and said that the religion didn't seem to matter, at least as far as health results - Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, all benefited from prayer. An atheist called into the program and said that obviously the positive results resulted from the mental and emotional support the patients were receiving by knowing they were prayed for. The doctor then replied that many of the patients he studied were in comas, or were infants. In any case, such patients had no idea they were prayed for. The atheist was reduced to saying, simply, well that's impossible. It goes against all rational thought. The doctor simply reiterated the facts.

The first study on health & prayer I know of was in 1988 by Dr. Randolph Byrd, who asked church groups to pray for some of his heart patients, and gave them the patients' names. A control group of patients were not prayed for. None of the patients knew they were in a study, nor did they know about the prayer. The patients who were prayed for were far less likely to suffer from complications. There have been other studies as well, so the challenge to "do a scientific study" of prayer's effects has been met a number of times.

[Calm]

I believe there have been several studies with positive results for prayer, but other studies have not been able to duplicate these results so I believe it's been to remain cautious at this point in regard to the research.

[Somebodyz]

Ya see Sombodyz? I am sorry I am rude and disdainful but those of us that know how to use our brain get frustrated with the really stupid.

No you are not sorry. There is no need for such arrogance. You are on a religious site, calling believers stupid. Why are you here, if you only want to deride not discuss? Don't bother answering. You have shown you can't answer in away worth reading.

There are atheist and unbelievers on this site, that you'd do well to learn from. They could show you how to post without name calling. How to disagree respectfully.

[Daniel Peterson]

Arrogance or pride is a really interesting thing.

In many cases -- perhaps, even, in all or almost all -- it may actually represent an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority, or some sort of status anxiety.

For instance, the hatred that lower class whites in the American South used to display toward (even educated and successful) blacks may have represented a way for such lower caste people to elevate themselves in their own minds by insisting that there was a caste even lower than their own. Looking down on others is a bargain-basement technique for imagining oneself to be somehow elevated. It requires no demonstrated achievement or merit, merely membership in the supposedly superior class (e.g., of whites, or "brights," or whatever the preferred "master race" has been determined to be).

[ryanelwood]

I remember listening to a radio program in which a doctor talked about his study of prayer. He found that people who were prayed for recovered more often than those who were not. He took the trouble to identify the faiths of the patients he studied, and said that the religion didn't seem to matter, at least as far as health results - Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, all benefited from prayer. An atheist called into the program and said that obviously the positive results resulted from the mental and emotional support the patients were receiving by knowing they were prayed for. The doctor then replied that many of the patients he studied were in comas, or were infants. In any case, such patients had no idea they were prayed for. The atheist was reduced to saying, simply, well that's impossible. It goes against all rational thought. The doctor simply reiterated the facts.

The first study on health & prayer I know of was in 1988 by Dr. Randolph Byrd, who asked church groups to pray for some of his heart patients, and gave them the patients' names. A control group of patients were not prayed for. None of the patients knew they were in a study, nor did they know about the prayer. The patients who were prayed for were far less likely to suffer from complications. There have been other studies as well, so the challenge to "do a scientific study" of prayer's effects has been met a number of times.

Here are some recent articles and studies on prayer:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/07/25/a_prayer_for_health/

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/ap_060330_prayer.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/opinion/11lawrence.html?ex=1302408000&en=643ff6eac0f51086&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-02-09-cancer_x.htm

[Strindberg]

Arrogance or pride is a really interesting thing.

In many cases -- perhaps, even, in all or almost all -- it may actually represent an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority, or some sort of status anxiety.

For instance, the hatred that lower class whites in the American South used to display toward (even educated and successful) blacks may have represented a way for such lower caste people to elevate themselves in their own minds by insisting that there was a caste even lower than their own. Looking down on others is a bargain-basement technique for imagining oneself to be somehow elevated. It requires no demonstrated achievement or merit, merely membership in the supposedly superior class (e.g., of whites, or "brights," or whatever the preferred "master race" has been determined to be).

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

For my part, I believe in the gift of healing. But now I feel so stupid. What to do?

[Tarski]

Certainly, a lot of people have received the laying on of hands and have been healed.

Certainly? It is certain that some people received laying on of hands and later judged themselves to be better. Evidence of a cause effect relation is absent.

Despite the shock of saying so, the "restoring of a limb" test seems a good one to me. It's clear cut. No placebo effect possible. What is it about losing a limb that disqualifies one from a healing miracle by an all powerful God while people with invisible illnesses like arthritis get healed so often??

[Daniel Peterson]

The severely head-damaged young man in a two-week-long coma to whom (much to my own shock) I promised, among other things, complete recovery without lingering complications, seems unlikely to be the beneficiary of a placebo effect.

I can't guarantee that this was a miracle. But it sure looked and felt like one. And not to me only. Moreover, according to the young man, at least, his neurologist was quite astounded when he left the hospital, fully recovered, without any lingering complications.

[Chronos]

And rudeness will not be tolerated, Ryan. Rudeness deserves a vacation, how does 7 days work out with you for all your comments?

~Chronos

[caudicus]

Arrogance or pride is a really interesting thing.

In many cases -- perhaps, even, in all or almost all -- it may actually represent an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority, or some sort of status anxiety.

The sword cuts both ways. I started off very reasonable on this board, but quickly fell victim to the poor attitude of Herr Doctor Daniel Peterson (who actually insisted I call him that... how is that for arrogance?). It has been downhill ever since. There are plenty of long time members of this board that are TBMs and are consistently very rude. So much for any attempt to be Christlike. Maybe Herr Doctor Daniel Peterson is right... it all stems from feelings of inferiority.

Personally, I feel that the mormon stance, by default is an arrogant one. They have access to knowledge that no one else does, why shouldn't they have a false sense of superiority? After all, it is the one true church with the most correct book on earth.

Looking down on others is a bargain-basement technique for imagining oneself to be somehow elevated. It requires no demonstrated achievement or merit, merely membership in the supposedly superior class

Rudeness aside, ryanelwood has some valid points. I think you would be served better addressing his points rather than his rudeness... that is, of course, assuming you are here to exchange information for the purpose of learning, rather than participating merely to browbeat people who have a different viewpoint than your own.

The way you deal with people has everything to do with their attitude when they deal with you. If someone starts off rude, it is easy enough (usually) to steer things in a positive and respectful direction for everyone.

Personal experience is great and all, but if often has the problem of being very limited in perspective. And this head case (no pun intended) may be quite a remarkable recovery, but is it really the most logical conclusion to draw that God did it? People who have tried to commit suicide (a sin) have survived after putting bullets into their head. Did God do it? My personal experience has brought me across many severe head injuries, and it seems that modern medicine and the natural resilience of the human body is mostly responsible for very remarkable results. If, in my past, I had left people I was supposed to be helping in the hands of God and did nothing, I doubt they would have recovered so well... even if they had received a priesthood blessing on the spot.

Even if the study about praying and healing could be repeated with the same results (unlikely as it is), what would it say about your religion when people of other religions have just as much access to divine aid as you do? Why be mormon if you can get access to the power of God without being baptised into the mormon church?

Why would God warn people about signs, then allow the constant laws of nature to be broken for minor miracles?

In the end, the power of the Priesthood isn't restoring anyone's limb, and I think this is a valuable piece of information. I still don't see any reason why I, or anyone else, should believe that mormons have the power of healing by the laying on of hands. I honestly would like to know how it is better than the rabbit's foot.

If the LDS church is the one true church, then shouldn't the ability of its members to heal be more consistent than the ability of members of other religions to heal?

[annewandering]

I think that most people who experience miracles such as being raised from the dead, being instantly cured of incurable diseases, having sight restored, or whatever, will not talk about. At least they should not talk about it, in my opinion. There is such a thing as casting pearls before swine.

I second this particularly under circumstances like this.

[annewandering]

If the LDS church is the one true church, then shouldn't the ability of its members to heal be more consistent than the ability of members of other religions to heal?

And we know this isn't true how? Last I heard there are many studies done that show active mormons to be more healthy than the general population. Generally it is attributed to diet and lifestyle. How do we know its not because they were given blessings when they are sick or injured? I highly doubt this has been factored in at all.

[Daniel Peterson]

The sword cuts both ways. I started off very reasonable on this board, but quickly fell victim to the poor attitude of Herr Doctor Daniel Peterson

The victims of my prideful and brutish cruelty, by now, must number in the hundreds.

(who actually insisted I call him that... how is that for arrogance?).

Somebody is humor impaired.

Which one of us, I wonder, might it be?

Personally, I feel that the mormon stance, by default is an arrogant one. They have access to knowledge that no one else does, why shouldn't they have a false sense of superiority? After all, it is the one true church with the most correct book on earth.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who deeply appreciates that specimen of humility and its refusal to judge others. May we inherently arrogant Mormons learn from it!

I second this particularly under circumstances like this.

I agree completely.

Even in mentioning two cases of apparently miraculous healings with which I've been involved, I've given no specifics at all about the one and very little information about the other. And that's as far as I'm going to go.

[Confidential Informant]

Ok, let me see if I can simplify it. Those of us that use our brains get frustrated stupidity. For us rationalists, it is like an adult still believing in Santa Clause and his magical abilities. Wouldn't you get frustrated with an adult that insists on believing in Santa and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? So what I am saying is that I am sorry, but stupidity deserves rudeness and disdain.

Oh, I just love it when the "brights" show up to tell us all how foolish we are! What a delight!

I'm curious does one become a "rationalist" by self-proclimation, or is there an induction ceremony? (Thank you sir, may I have another?)

Those of you who use your brains get frustrated by stupidity? So, in your case, your brain is frustrated by your own stupidity, thus you heap disdain and rudeness upon yourself.

What a silly, overstuffed ego of a post that was.

C.I.

[Avatar4321]

Somebodyz asked why I have to be rude and disdainful towards beliefs in magical healings. Just look at Brenda's post that displays such a disconnect from reality. This is why I am disdainful, we have logical brains in order to think rationally. Brenda's above post is so irrational I am suspicious that Brenda is being sarcastic. Of course tests don't work, because we know gods magical powers will fail just like a lucky rabbits foot magic will also fail. As I said you can use the exact same excuse for a rabbits foot. We have to trust that the rabbits foot knows whats best for the afflicted person. So according to the infinite wisdom of Brenda, people suffer with horrible pain and die of cancer for their own good. So if a healing fails then the patient shouldn't take any pain medications or even go to the doctor for radiation treatments because they are being taught a lesson from their loving heavenly father because that is what he wants and the patient shouldn't fight gods loving lesson of giving them cancer, plus the patient shouldn't want to put off gods will of their early death so that their spouse can learn the lesson of being an only parent. A parent shouldn't take their child to the doctor either because god has given the child a painful disease for the childs own good and we don't want to fight the will of our loving heavenly father. Ya see Sombodyz? I am sorry I am rude and disdainful but those of us that know how to use our brain get frustrated with the really stupid.

As someone who has witnessed miraculous feelings firsthand, I would say that anyone who uses a brain and thinks logically couldnt possibly deny that occur healings occur. Nor could they deny the many witnesses.People don't always have faith to preform the miracle wanted. I think that's far more common then it being contrary to God's will. Because if you had the faith necessary to do the healing, you would be seeking God's will and wouldnt say anything contrary to it.And you are right. Those of us with brains do get frustrated with the really stuoid. Thankfully we can repent and God will forgive us.

Ok, let me see if I can simplify it. Those of us that use our brains get frustrated stupidity. For us rationalists, it is like an adult still believing in Santa Clause and his magical abilities. Wouldn't you get frustrated with an adult that insists on believing in Santa and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? So what I am saying is that I am sorry, but stupidity deserves rudeness and disdain.

Most people who use their brains, dont presume that they are the intelligent ones. Instead they are the ones trying to learn.

Arrogance or pride is a really interesting thing.In many cases -- perhaps, even, in all or almost all -- it may actually represent an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority, or some sort of status anxiety.For instance, the hatred that lower class whites in the American South used to display toward (even educated and successful) blacks may have represented a way for such lower caste people to elevate themselves in their own minds by insisting that there was a caste even lower than their own. Looking down on others is a bargain-basement technique for imagining oneself to be somehow elevated. It requires no demonstrated achievement or merit, merely membership in the supposedly superior class (e.g., of whites, or "brights," or whatever the preferred "master race" has been determined to be).

Very true. Thankfully God can heal even this malady.

[Avatar4321]

The severely head-damaged young man in a two-week-long coma to whom (much to my own shock) I promised, among other things, complete recovery without lingering complications, seems unlikely to be the beneficiary of a placebo effect.

I can't guarantee that this was a miracle. But it sure looked and felt like one. And not to me only. Moreover, according to the young man, at least, his neurologist was quite astounded when he left the hospital, fully recovered, without any lingering complications.

I've seen very similiar effects happen with friends. Often it took fasting and prayer. Along with the blessing.

Miracles do happen.

[TJane]

I don't have a personal experience about healing but I do have one where I wasn't healed. I had made a promise to the Lord and had not kept it. No one knew about this promise except me and the Lord. I was hurt during an activity in circumstances when the promise should have been kept but wasn't.

I asked for a blessing but in the "blessing" I was chastized for not keeping my promise and to use the time recovering from this injury to develop more humility. There is no way the person giving the blessing could have known about my personal promise to God.

In this case, the priesthood blessing didn't work because God *did* want to teach me a lesson.

No rabbit's foot. Definitely no placebo effect.

Jane

[cjcampbell]

I thought LDS priesthood blessings were given with a qualifier that they are in accordance with God's will. Which would IMO, still be a request of sorts.

Or are priesthood blessings given without asking for things to only be done if they are in accordance with God's will?

There is nothing in a priesthood blessing that has a qualifier such as "if it is God's will." Or at least there should not be. The priesthood holder is pronouncing God's will.

That said, there are times when priesthood holders may not be in tune with the will of God or where their own desires may be getting in the way of listening to God. God will not be mocked by unworthy priesthood holders or unworthy desires, either. I could, using my priesthood, command Mt. Rainier to move to some other location, but if I was doing that just to show off or for some trivial reason there is little reason to expect that the mountain would obey me. God places His authority at the disposal of the priesthood. He expects us to have the maturity to not act like Jim Carrey with that authority.

[cjcampbell]

Your analogy to someone shooting themself is really absurd, so let me help you out. People claim that god answers prayers and heals people. Mormons even use magical oil that has been blessed specifically for the healing of the sick. I just want to test the claim just as doctors test medications to ensure they are effective.

Okay, suppose you 'test' God. And God heals a whole hospital full of cancer patients. And you are convinced. Now, the next guy comes along, someone with your personality and skepticism, and says, "I don't believe it." I want my own hospital full of cancer patients to test. And now you are in the position of having to 'prove' your veracity to a skeptic such as yourself.

The oil is not 'magical' and no one claims that the oil has any powers at all. One would expect that at least a skeptic would not go around misrepresenting what people say. But your fundamental dishonesty is exposed here: you are not interested in testing God; you are only interested in yourself.

Now, I have given priesthood blessings where people were raised from the dead, where people who had suffered for many years from diseases that had made them unable to walk or see were immediately able to do both. You may call me a liar and that is your right. Now, what am I supposed to do about that? I cannot deny these things -- I know it happened and, what is more, God knows it happened. And you know what? I think, in spite of all your denials, that you know it happened, too, but you will not admit it.

Fine. We all make our individual choices on what to believe and what not to believe. You have to live with your choices. I am willing to live with mine.

[Kyle]

How come there aren't any more huge miracles? World wide flood, water into wine, first born egyptian dying, armies of seagulls, dead people rising, ocean's opening up, etc. etc.

Today, it seems miracles are confinec to healing ( no new limbs mind you)

"A miracle is an extraordinary event caused by the power of God. Miracles are an important element in the work of Jesus Christ. They include healings, restoring the dead to life, and resurrection. Miracles are a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith is necessary in order for miracles to be manifested"

That is the official church deffintion of a miracle. I have a problem with that especially the faith part. Faith is not necessary for miracles to be manifested. The people in Noah's time didn't believe, and yet they were affected by a miracle. The egyptians didn't believe, and yet they were affected by many miaracles. Did lazerus believe? probally not, he was dead.

My point is, just because someone doesn't believe in miracles doesn't mean that that negates the persons ability to still witness miracles.

My other point is look at the first sentence. Extraordinary. Someone who is cured of a deadly disease might be miraculous, but not of the caliber of the other miracles I mentioned.

Also, all you people saying you are not going to cast pearls before swine need a quick reality check. If you really believed in that prinicple, what are you doing on this website? Are you not casting your time before swine? Does God see you on here as following his word, or casting your pearls before swine?

I think some of us should be offended by being called swine. Moderators? Does this slanderous name calling break any of the rules?

The Pearls before swine thing is also a really nice way to say, I have no proof but I don't want to admit it.

[TJane]

How come there aren't any more huge miracles? World wide flood, water into wine, first born egyptian dying, armies of seagulls, dead people rising, ocean's opening up, etc. etc.

If you look at the post right above yours, you'll see dead people rising.

My point is, just because someone doesn't believe in miracles doesn't mean that that negates the persons ability to still witness miracles.

Yes, but it does negate (sometimes) the person's ability to recognize it as a miracle. I'm sure that the non-repentant people of Noah's time thought it was just a really bad storm, not righteous judgement. Most things, if not all, can be rationalized away.

My other point is look at the first sentence. Extraordinary. Someone who is cured of a deadly disease might be miraculous, but not of the caliber of the other miracles I mentioned.

You're now calibrating miracles? A small miracle is not a real miracle? What scale are you using to determine when an unexplained event is worthy to be called an 'act of God'?

The Pearls before swine thing is also a really nice way to say, I have no proof but I don't want to admit it.

Sometimes that may be true. But somtimes it just means that I don't want to bother sharing special experiences with people who won't believe me anyway.

Jane

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Certainly, a lot of people have received the laying on of hands and have been healed. All religions have some sort of healing/faith connection. I am skeptical, though. There is also the placebo effect. How much of the laying on of hands is just the placebo effect? Maybe all of it? Obviously, God doesn't heal amputees or various other things that there are no cures for. Why should anyone believe that healing by the laying on of hands is divine power at work?

Because this is what the God we serve requires...yet another doctrine that has almost disappeared from the "Christian Church". But they also deny that Baptism was ever required.

[Senator]

And this head case (no pun intended) may be quite a remarkable recovery, but is it really the most logical conclusion to draw that God did it? People who have tried to commit suicide (a sin) have survived after putting bullets into their head. Did God do it? My personal experience has brought me across many severe head injuries, and it seems that modern medicine and the natural resilience of the human body is mostly responsible for very remarkable results.

Caudicus,

I'm curious as to why so much disdain for a seemingly innocent act of 'believing' being the cause of such a positive outcome. You ask if it is the most logical conclusion. Perhaps, perhaps not. Seeing that the outcome was illogical, which is evidenced be the physicians reaction, (logically, according to best medical knowledge of severe head trauma, the victim should expect long term repercussions, if not death), seeing that the scene has move into the arena of the unknown, unexplained; how is it any less logical (or worse, distasteful) to attribute causation to a benevolent act of love, expressed by the laying on of one's hands, calling down the intervention of God. (which is what a priesthood blessing is)! Science couldn't explain it. Why the needed revile at another explanation. Is it simply a personal temperamental issue?

I still don't see any reason why I, or anyone else, should believe that mormons have the power of healing by the laying on of hands.

Then don't!

I honestly would like to know how it is better than the rabbit's foot.

No you wouldn't.

But then again attitudes have an amazing way of changing when your laying at death's door.

If the LDS church is the one true church, then shouldn't the ability of its members to heal be more consistent than the ability of members of other religions to heal?

I hope not. I hope that God would bestow his blessings on all who faithfully seek it from his hands.

[katherine the great]

Has the spirit ever desired that an amputee be cured?

Jesus cured Lepers, and I think the chances that some of them were "amputees" are very high. I've never heard of a limb being regenerated through any kind of modern healing event though. I have really mixed feelings about this topic because I believe that there are some things that cannot be healed through a Priesthood blessing or faith healing-like type one Diabetes. I have heard of cancers being cured, but cancer goes into remission on it's own sometimes. If it is physically possible to be healed though, with faith, it does seem that sometimes people are healed in ways we would consider miraculous. Faith seems to be a necessary component--either the faith of the recipient or the faith of their loved ones.