caudicus Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Certainly, a lot of people have received the laying on of hands and have been healed. All religions have some sort of healing/faith connection. I am skeptical, though. There is also the placebo effect. How much of the laying on of hands is just the placebo effect? Maybe all of it? Obviously, God doesn't heal amputees or various other things that there are no cures for. Why should anyone believe that healing by the laying on of hands is divine power at work?
Daniel Peterson Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Personal experience helps.I've had two rather remarkable experiences with such things. One was just last October. It involved a spectacular complete recovery from a very serious head injury. The person was in a coma at the time of the blessing.Placebo effect? Illusion?Maybe.I doubt it, though.
Calm Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I do not know how placebo could cause the complete disappearance of hepatitis as if it had never been as occurred with my dad after a blessing, but perhaps it can.
Kyle Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Yes, my question is how does priesthood work? The preisthood as defined by the church is the power of God, which I guess means God does everything through the preisthood.that sounds a little circular to me.I do not know how placebo could cause the complete disappearance of hepatitis as if it had never been as occurred with my dad after a blessing, but perhaps it can.Was he on any medicine, or treatment?
charity's child Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Yes, my question is how does priesthood work? The preisthood as defined by the church is the power of God, which I guess means God does everything through the preisthood.that sounds a little circular to me.Actually, the priesthood is the authority to act in God's name, using God's power. Some people have been able to call on God's power without the priesthood.
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Yes, my question is how does priesthood work? The preisthood as defined by the church is the power of God, which I guess means God does everything through the preisthood.that sounds a little circular to me.Was he on any medicine, or treatment?Does one need the priesthood to lays hands on the head of somebody? In one word - nope.
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 A young lady in my ward was in an accident several years ago where her arm was broken in several places, with all sorts of bone poking out. All the doctors that saw her figured that she was probably going to going through years of pain and all sorts of surgery to make her able to have less than 50% usage of the arm. She was given a blessing and was told that the doctors would figure out what needed to be done and that she would shortly have almost full use of her arm.A doctor, not a Mormon doctor, called her mother up the next day and told her that he had had a dream on what needed to be done. The young lady did have to go around for several months with her arm in a metal frame and a metal frame in her arm, but within a half year, her arm was healed and she was able to ride her horse again. Her horse threw her off when it got spooked.Could this be counted as a healing?
Kyle Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Actually, the priesthood is the authority to act in God's name, using God's power. Some people have been able to call on God's power without the priesthood.What is God's power?Does one need the priesthood to lays hands on the head of somebody? In one word - nope.But are they officially using the preisthood?Can my mom lay her hands on me and bless me?
Notquitewetyet Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 A young lady in my ward was in an accident several years ago where her arm was broken in several places, with all sorts of bone poking out. All the doctors that saw her figured that she was probably going to going through years of pain and all sorts of surgery to make her able to have less than 50% usage of the arm. She was given a blessing and was told that the doctors would figure out what needed to be done and that she would shortly have almost full use of her arm.A doctor, not a Mormon doctor, called her mother up the next day and told her that he had had a dream on what needed to be done. The young lady did have to go around for several months with her arm in a metal frame and a metal frame in her arm, but within a half year, her arm was healed and she was able to ride her horse again. Her horse threw her off when it got spooked.Could this be counted as a healing?You mean after all that healing and process the horse threw her off again? Or did the horse throwing her off cause the original accident?
jadams_4242 Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Certainly, a lot of people have received the laying on of hands and have been healed. All religions have some sort of healing/faith connection. I am skeptical, though. There is also the placebo effect. How much of the laying on of hands is just the placebo effect? Maybe all of it? Obviously, God doesn't heal amputees or various other things that there are no cures for. Why should anyone believe that healing by the laying on of hands is divine power at work? If the spirit so directs, it will happen. simply laying on of hands by a preisthood holder is not power enough to make something happen if it is not Gods will; I have seen miracles happen when the spirit so directs; and i have witheld my own "desired" words in a blessing because the spirit does not inspire; When a worthy holder gives a blessing he can usually overcome self desire I;E.... that his child will not die. When the spirit is telling him it is going to happen. {die}. then on the other hand a very longtime freind of mine was recently blessed back to life after 45 minutes of beind dead. {because the spirit inspired it to be said}.
caudicus Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 What is the difference between these experiences and those of people of other faiths? They do not have the same spirit to guide them, but people of other religions, and even atheists experience remarkable cases of curing.Has the spirit ever desired that an amputee be cured?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 But are they officially using the preisthood?Can my mom lay her hands on me and bless me?Nope and yep. Joseph Smith said that women can lay their hands on people and bless them. He even said that preachers from other religions can do it. Healing doesn't necessarily need to be done through the priesthood, but it definitely needs to be done through faith.
ryanelwood Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Certainly, a lot of people have received the laying on of hands and have been healed. All religions have some sort of healing/faith connection. I am skeptical, though. There is also the placebo effect. How much of the laying on of hands is just the placebo effect? Maybe all of it? Obviously, God doesn't heal amputees or various other things that there are no cures for. Why should anyone believe that healing by the laying on of hands is divine power at work?Most healings are people that get blessed, continue to follow doctors orders and eventually recover. They are all ambiguous. There is no way to determine if a blessing has any effect when they are still under the care of doctors. That is why a amputee is the perfect test, unfortunately god continues to fail. Healing is one of the few things in religion that is testable. I invite believers in divine healing to conduct a test all the time and there is always some sad excuse of why they can't. My test is to go to a cancer institute and bless all those with terminal cancer for immediate healing and to also pray for immediate healing to several gods including Zeus. And then test it against a lucky rabbits foot which we will touch the people with and ask the lucky rabbits foot to bestow its healing powers on them. Then compare the results. If the results are the same, that is none of them experience immediate healing, than the only logical conclusion is that gods power is just as effective as the rabbits foot and that if one of the methods are superstitious then they all are because none worked. But believers in divine healing always have an excuse about gods failures, but you can apply all those same excuses to why a lucky rabbits foot does not heal. But really most believers don't really believe it either when their in a serious situation. Generally if a believer sees a person collapse and not breathing or if they see someone hit by a car and seriously hurt, their first reaction is to call 911 and not to run for the oil first, that is usually an after thought because they know humans have a much better record of saving people then gods magical powers.
Somebodyz Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 ............unfortunately god continues to fail. Healing is one of the few things in religion that is testable. I they know humans have a much better record of saving people then gods magical powers. Faith cannot be tested. Plus some people are not meant to get better, it's not their time or their time is up. I'm one of those. Before I was even ill, I was told I would have "one illness after the other, but in time I'd have more health and vigor than I've ever had in my life". Many priesthood holders have given me blessings, over the years. Many did not know about my original blessing. None of these priesthood holders have been able to say, I'll be better. I've had a grown man sob after blessing me, saying sorry to me, (though he didn't need to). He was so sure, he was going to give my a blessing and all would be well. He was unable to speak, when he tried. There are those who give false blessings also, those who rely (in the church and out) on the arm of the flesh, not on our Lord. I've felt the difference and they are miles apart. You obviously don't believe in God, but do you have to be so rude about our beliefs, so disdainful?
Brenda Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Tests won't work. God doesn't always heal. Imo, He blesses us in the way that is best for each of us. If it is best for John to be healed, and that by being healed, John has a better chance of succeeding in this life, then through faith, John will be healed. If Mary is better off having to endure the trials of sickness, God will not heal her. She apparently needs to learn the lessons. Yet God will always help us through our trials. He just won't always take them away. So tests can't work.If we have knowledge of, and access to, the Priesthood, then God expects us to use it. If we don't have access to the Priesthood, then God will bless us according to our faith. He won't withhold blessings to any of his children for lack of Priesthood power. That's like condemning someone for something they were never taught.
John Larsen Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I like Eugene England's Blessing the Chevrolet.
cjcampbell Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I think that most people who experience miracles such as being raised from the dead, being instantly cured of incurable diseases, having sight restored, or whatever, will not talk about. At least they should not talk about it, in my opinion. There is such a thing as casting pearls before swine.
cjcampbell Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Nope and yep. Joseph Smith said that women can lay their hands on people and bless them. He even said that preachers from other religions can do it. Healing doesn't necessarily need to be done through the priesthood, but it definitely needs to be done through faith.The difference between a priesthood blessing and laying hands on people in a prayer of faith is that the priesthood blessing is not a request. It is a blessing, pronounced as if God Himself were standing there giving it. The priesthood holder is not asking God to heal someone -- he acts as the voice of God and grants the blessing that he is inspired to give.Laying on hands is an act of faith, but here the person is not acting as a stand-in for God. They are asking God to heal the person. God hears all prayers and will act according to His will on the matter.
cjcampbell Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Most healings are people that get blessed, continue to follow doctors orders and eventually recover. They are all ambiguous. There is no way to determine if a blessing has any effect when they are still under the care of doctors. That is why a amputee is the perfect test, unfortunately god continues to fail. Healing is one of the few things in religion that is testable. I invite believers in divine healing to conduct a test all the time and there is always some sad excuse of why they can't. My test is to go to a cancer institute and bless all those with terminal cancer for immediate healing and to also pray for immediate healing to several gods including Zeus. And then test it against a lucky rabbits foot which we will touch the people with and ask the lucky rabbits foot to bestow its healing powers on them. Then compare the results. If the results are the same, that is none of them experience immediate healing, than the only logical conclusion is that gods power is just as effective as the rabbits foot and that if one of the methods are superstitious then they all are because none worked. But believers in divine healing always have an excuse about gods failures, but you can apply all those same excuses to why a lucky rabbits foot does not heal. But really most believers don't really believe it either when their in a serious situation. Generally if a believer sees a person collapse and not breathing or if they see someone hit by a car and seriously hurt, their first reaction is to call 911 and not to run for the oil first, that is usually an after thought because they know humans have a much better record of saving people then gods magical powers.People have a lot of excuses for human failures, too. I do not buy your argument at all. The fact is, we all have to die. This is not an indictment of God. Blaming God because He does not heal everyone in a cancer ward is supremely ignorant. If God healed everyone that He is asked to heal, then no one would ever die or even get sick.Your experiment is analogous to somebody asking you to shoot yourself so that you can find out if there is a God or not so that you then come back and tell us.God has repeatedly warned against those who seek after signs.
Calm Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Was he on any medicine, or treatment?All I know is that he was off work for about three months. He had responsible doctors so I suspect there was some other treatment involved.However, the issue wasn't that the disease was cured without medicine or treatment--surely people must have survived hepatitis without medical intervention in the past, but that there was no trace of it ever existing which there should have been even if it had been medically treated (which I think was likely though I don't know what the treatment was beyond extended bedrest)...at least that is my understanding, perhaps someone with more medical knowledge can inform me if I am wrong. I have thought perhaps it might have been misdiagnosed, but the response of his doctors (they were shocked and showed it and they were going to write up a case study about it for some reason, I don't know if they did as this occurred quite sometime ago and I wouldn't have a clue how to track this down as they wouldn't have used the patient's name and I don't know the doctors) seems to indicate they didn't think it was just a records mistake.He does not make a big deal of it, it's more just a curiosity to him. I, otoh, would be very interested to find out if there is a medical explanation for the lack of any 'residual' signs of the disease. It is not something I ever share with others except in threads like these for those looking for possibles, in part because I am curious if someone has a 'mundane' answer for it.Can my mom lay her hands on me and bless me?Yes, she can and I have done so with my family.
Mudcat Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 The difference between a priesthood blessing and laying hands on people in a prayer of faith is that the priesthood blessing is not a request. It is a blessing, pronounced as if God Himself were standing there giving it. The priesthood holder is not asking God to heal someone -- he acts as the voice of God and grants the blessing that he is inspired to give.Laying on hands is an act of faith, but here the person is not acting as a stand-in for God. They are asking God to heal the person. God hears all prayers and will act according to His will on the matter.I thought LDS priesthood blessings were given with a qualifier that they are in accordance with God's will. Which would IMO, still be a request of sorts. Or are priesthood blessings given without asking for things to only be done if they are in accordance with God's will?
ryanelwood Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Tests won't work. God doesn't always heal. Imo, He blesses us in the way that is best for each of us. If it is best for John to be healed, and that by being healed, John has a better chance of succeeding in this life, then through faith, John will be healed. If Mary is better off having to endure the trials of sickness, God will not heal her. She apparently needs to learn the lessons. Yet God will always help us through our trials. He just won't always take them away. So tests can't work.If we have knowledge of, and access to, the Priesthood, then God expects us to use it. If we don't have access to the Priesthood, then God will bless us according to our faith. He won't withhold blessings to any of his children for lack of Priesthood power. That's like condemning someone for something they were never taught.Somebodyz asked why I have to be rude and disdainful towards beliefs in magical healings. Just look at Brenda's post that displays such a disconnect from reality. This is why I am disdainful, we have logical brains in order to think rationally. Brenda's above post is so irrational I am suspicious that Brenda is being sarcastic. Of course tests don't work, because we know gods magical powers will fail just like a lucky rabbits foot magic will also fail. As I said you can use the exact same excuse for a rabbits foot. We have to trust that the rabbits foot knows whats best for the afflicted person. So according to the infinite wisdom of Brenda, people suffer with horrible pain and die of cancer for their own good. So if a healing fails then the patient shouldn't take any pain medications or even go to the doctor for radiation treatments because they are being taught a lesson from their loving heavenly father because that is what he wants and the patient shouldn't fight gods loving lesson of giving them cancer, plus the patient shouldn't want to put off gods will of their early death so that their spouse can learn the lesson of being an only parent. A parent shouldn't take their child to the doctor either because god has given the child a painful disease for the childs own good and we don't want to fight the will of our loving heavenly father. Ya see Sombodyz? I am sorry I am rude and disdainful but those of us that know how to use our brain get frustrated with the really stupid.
Calm Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I am sorry I am rude and disdainful but those of us that know how to use our brain get frustrated with the really stupid.If you were actually sorry, then you wouldn't be posting these comments in the first place....Instead, you come across as taking great enjoyment at pointing out the 'stupidity' of others and just trying to excuse yourself as if you were in the grip of some uncontrollable force that just made you post something that even you recognize as "rude and disdainful".If you are going to post something rude, at least have the guts to own it for what it is and not make excuses that it's the other guy's fault for being so stupid.
ryanelwood Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 People have a lot of excuses for human failures, too. I do not buy your argument at all. The fact is, we all have to die. This is not an indictment of God. Blaming God because He does not heal everyone in a cancer ward is supremely ignorant. If God healed everyone that He is asked to heal, then no one would ever die or even get sick.Your experiment is analogous to somebody asking you to shoot yourself so that you can find out if there is a God or not so that you then come back and tell us.Your analogy to someone shooting themself is really absurd, so let me help you out. People claim that god answers prayers and heals people. Mormons even use magical oil that has been blessed specifically for the healing of the sick. I just want to test the claim just as doctors test medications to ensure they are effective. So someone claims they have a luckly rabbits foot that can heal, is it wrong of me to ask for a demonstration of the rabbits foots magical abilities? Of course, when it fails they could just say that "The fact is, we all have to die. This is not an indictment of the magical rabbits foot. Blaming the rabbits foot because it does not heal everyone in a cancer ward is supremely ignorant. If the rabbits foot healed everyone that it is asked to heal, then no one would ever die or even get sick." Ya see? Every superstition can use the exact same excuses. The point is that magical prayers, magical oil, and the magical priesthood is just as effective as a magical rabbits foot. They are therefore equally effective and equally superstitious. If you think I am wrong, I am always willing to do a comparative test. OK, we all have to die, so is that why the loving heavenly father created disease so some of us could die earlier and have to endure immense amounts of pain? Especially children, we would hate the loving heavenly father to cheat his children out of dying and early painful death before their even 10 years old. God has repeatedly warned against those who seek after signs.The most used excuse ever invented on gods failures. This is an old one because even ancient superstitious people knew god never delivers, but they wanted to blindly believe so they invented this excuse. But what is most annoying is that modern humans still buy this absurd and idiotic excuse for gods complete failure.
Daniel Peterson Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I, for one, appreciate ryanelwood's contemptuous disdain.It just makes him easier to ignore.Where's the downside to that?(Anyway, as I observed on another thread, certain varieties of anti-Mormonism strike me less as positions than as personality defects.)
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