johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieri> Perhaps we could start with Matthew 5:16, if it is still in your bitty Bible, Johnny.Perhaps ...> Please note that Jesus says the "good works" are ours, not hisAnd your point is ...
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumCould you please sum up what a person needs to do and what commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father and receive all his blessings because the Mormon scripture you provided seems to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches.What a stupid response.The Mormon Scripture is what determines Mormon doctrine. I am sure you are really not this dumb that you miss the point. You are being intentionally belligerent.Clearly you have an agenda and are not interested in dialogue or understanding. THis is why I rarely attempt to discuss things with people like you anymore. Proof texting is your game. It accomplishes not a thing.But I will try one more time.I told you already what commandments one must keep. Read my initial post on this thread. Read the passage above. Stop playing games and being a dip stick. There is not one, two, three or ten. One has faith in Jesus, repents is baptized and receives the Holy Ghost and then endures to the end. At that point they are saved. They can go to the celestial kingdom. One does the best they can to keep all the commandments but never will. Some will do better than others but that does no mean one will be in the Celestial Kingdom and one won't. I will have a bearing on rewards and levels there.Got it yet? Sheeeesh!
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieri> Perhaps we could start with Matthew 5:16, if it is still in your bitty Bible, Johnny.Perhaps ...> Please note that Jesus says the "good works" are ours, not hisAnd your point is ...Feigned ignorance does not become you, Johnny.Unless it is the real thing . . . in which case it still doesn't become you.You keep saying Mormons are wrong for thinking they should do good works. Jesus says the Mormons are right.Jesus also says that Johnny is wrong.All the Best!--Consiglieri
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumOne has faith in Jesus, repents is baptized and receives the Holy Ghost and then endures to the end. At that point they are saved. They can go to the celestial kingdom. One does the best they can to keep all the commandments but never will. Some will do better than others but that does no mean one will be in the Celestial Kingdom and one won't. I will have a bearing on rewards and levels there.Got it yet? Sheeeesh!I get it that you did not mention the following Mormon teachings:Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...." Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 32 "We have been given commandments ...the Law of Tithing ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "If we obey the commandments of the Lord, our families will be together forever as husband, wife, and children."Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever." Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"
urroner Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriMy beliefs are NOT in accord with the BoM - I don't believe in "saved, after all we can do" like the BoM reveals.Nor are your beliefs in accord with God's word.Oh, and I'll have a nice day Johnny. You too.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriJesus says the Mormons are right.Clearly Jesus does not say,The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.) Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 I get it that you did not mention the following Mormon teachings:I get it that you are a hack and really are not interested in understanding what LDS believe.Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...." Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 32 "We have been given commandments ...the Law of Tithing ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "If we obey the commandments of the Lord, our families will be together forever as husband, wife, and children."All commandments that we strive to do after we are justified. Try reading D&C 20 again.Oh and BTW, Gospel Principles is a fine book. But if it disagrees with Canon then Canon trumps. Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..." Exaltation is one of those reward sanctification items I mentioned. Can you readGospel Principles Chapter 46 "Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever."Reward and and sanctification thing again.Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"Reward and sanctification thing that comes after justification.Let me ask you Johny, in your dogma, what happens for someone who is more faithful than another. Is there not this idea of greater rewards and crowns?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriClearly Jesus does not say,Sure he did. And he told Joseph Smith your creeds are corrupt and an abomination. Tough break dude.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumAll commandments that we strive to do after we are justified. Try reading D&C 20 again.But these are man-made Mormon commandments, they are not Biblical commandments.Oh and BTW, Gospel Principles is a fine book. But if it disagrees with Canon then Canon trumps.It is amusing that the introduction of Gospel Principles says "Teach only what is supported by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit." Let me ask you Johny, in your dogma, what happens for someone who is more faithful than another. Is there not this idea of greater rewards and crowns?There are rewards and blessings, but there are not different kingdoms and there are not four groups of people after Final Judgment
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumSure he did. And he told Joseph Smith your creeds are corrupt and an abomination. Tough break dude.Clearly then Joseph Smith must not be a true prophet because the creeds are consistent with the inspired word of God.
busybee Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Hey guys, Just windering if you have ever met someone who make your hackles rise just by walking into the room..... Oh Hi Johnny!!! Maybe it's just me and a clash of internet personalities!!! I'm sure you're not really as dense as you pretend to be in this forum
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Johny is not interested in dialogue. Johny is only interested in his dogma. This is why I have been responding to him in like kind. But now I must be of to do some work.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumJohny is not interested in dialogue. Johny is only interested in his dogma. This is why I have been responding to him in like kind. But now I must be of to do some work.Have a nice day ...
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Flyonthewall>Careful...this sounds very familiar.Hopefuly it sounds familiar because it is straight from the BibleIt is also something we have said that critics take issue with.>Unless God is a puppeteer, we still must put the effort out in doing the works.God is not a puppeteerThen we still must do the work with God's help.>just what I have been saying all along!Glad we are in agreement.coolIt appears you still don't understand the doctrine of grace, the bible reveals- justified by his grace, not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5-7)- justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24)- if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God (Rom 4:2)- a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:16)- being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1)- justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9)I understand it just fine, I just don't understand it the way you do. The context of those scriptures as well as others that don't support your view all work together to paint a fuller picture than you do.Interesting ... Your explanation does not even mention grace ...The concept of grace was the boldened part. God gives us a greater reward than our efforts deserve - being the unmerited favor of God.It is God working, grace is BEFORE my effort. Grace is not AFTER my effort.Does grace come before or after you put forth your effort .... BoM says "grace ... AFTER all we can do" ?God will not work through an unwilling participant because of free will and all. We must first put the effort out before He will work through us.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallThen we still must do the work with God's help.But we don't do the work to be saved ...
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallBut we don't do the work to be saved ...We do the work to animate/activate/demonstrate our faith. Works are inseparable from faith. Faith without works is dead. We know, and have said many times, that our works will not save...it is by grace THROUGH faith. Dead faith will not allow grace to be effective either, since faith is the vehicle THROUGH which grace comes. Hence, works come first, as part of faith.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallWe do the work to animate/activate/demonstrate our faith. Works are inseparable from faith. Faith without works is dead. We know, and have said many times, that our works will not save...it is by grace THROUGH faith. Dead faith will not allow grace to be effective either, since faith is the vehicle THROUGH which grace comes.We maintain good works because these things are good and profitable unto men ... see belowTitus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.)Hence, works come first, as part of faith.Grace comes first ... it is a gift.1Cor.15 ([10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.)-Eph.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: )
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallBut we don't do the work to be saved ...Who cares?Do you really think God cares why we obey his commandments?If we follow God's commandments partially out of love for him, and partially out of our personal self-interest, do you think St. Peter is going to bar the door?"Sorry," St. Peter frowns, "You were a wonderful person and did all manner of good, but I'm afraid that you were at least partially tainted with self-interest. No dice, man. Eternal hell for you."This seems to be, as Jesus said, straining at gnats and swallowing camels.All the Best!--Consiglieri
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriDo you really think God cares why we obey his commandments?YesIf we follow God's commandments partially out of love for him, and partially out of our personal self-interest, do you think St. Peter is going to bar the door?Do you think Peter will bar the door to our heavenly Father if we are not married?"Sorry," St. Peter frowns, "You were a wonderful person and did all manner of good, but I'm afraid that you were at least partially tainted with self-interest. No dice, man. Eternal hell for you."The Mormon teachings seems to indicate damnation for those who are not married.
captain-jack Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 The Mormon teachings seems to indicate damnation for those who are not married.I really like to see this one, other than your own interpretation of it. Please share with us where it says those who are not married will be damned.
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallWe maintain good works because these things are good and profitable unto men ... see belowTitus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.)Good works are profitable for men, as it strengthens faith, and builds character, and enables us to follow the teachings of Christ.Grace comes first ... it is a gift.1Cor.15 ([10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.)Paul was talking about his conversion, not necessarily about salvatoin. Remember he was persecuting the saints before his "visitation". The Lord decided to show him the right path. This too was grace bestowed upon Paul, and if it were not for the grace of God, he would not be the person he was at the time he made the statement. Paul obeyed God, and God enabled him to do more than he could on his own.Eph.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: )This does not contradict anything I believe.
Luigi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Johny is not interested in dialogue. Johny is only interested in his dogma. This is why I have been responding to him in like kind. But now I must be of to do some work.Dogma versus dogma can never facilitate dialogue.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 captain-jackI really like to see this one, other than your own interpretation of it. Please share with us where it says those who are not married will be damned.See below,Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever." -GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Damnation - The state of being stopped in oneâ??s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallGood works are profitable for men, as it strengthens faith, and builds character, and enables us to follow the teachings of Christ.Paul was talking about his conversion, not necessarily about salvatoin. Remember he was persecuting the saints before his "visitation". The Lord decided to show him the right path. This too was grace bestowed upon Paul, and if it were not for the grace of God, he would not be the person he was at the time he made the statement. Paul obeyed God, and God enabled him to do more than he could on his own.This does not contradict anything I believe.Sounds good ... enjoyed the exchange of views ..
captain-jack Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 captain-jackSee below,Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever." GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Damnation - The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.You confuse two things, there is a difference between living with and having access to. But I am doubting that will make a difference to you.
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