Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[johnny]

captain-jack

If some are called to marry, would that not make it a commandment for them?

I would not consider it a commandment in the sense that they will be judged for it.

And how does one know if they are called?

Paul says if "if they cannot contain, let them marry" (1Cor 7:9).

What if someone wants children but cannot find a spouse, they are not called though they want to be married and have children?

Paul says "Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called" (1Cor 7:20).

God is unwilling to bless them though they may be better than someone else who is called to marry and bear children but does not want them as much as the first person. What about those children born when the parents were not called to have children?

Children are a gift from God.

You open quite the pit of questions when you say that some are called to marry.

This what Paul teaches:

• 1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. [10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.)
  

[Jeff K.]

captain-jack

QUOTE

If some are called to marry, would that not make it a commandment for them?

I would not consider it a commandment in the sense that they will be judged for it.

So if you are called of God, ie commanded and choose not to respond, you are not going to be judged for it?

Wow, never saw that one coming.

When Jonah was called to cry repentence to the Assyrians, was it a commandment? Was he judged by his obedience?

[johnny]

captain-jack

So if you are called of God, ie commanded and choose not to respond, you are not going to be judged for it?

I am speaking about the calling of marriage ... if you disagree please provide some scriptures that support you view as they relate to the calling of marriage.

[Luigi]

Luigi

Like I have said early ... only God knows ... it is about his grace and his mercy.

Ahh. Things are getting more complicated already.

[captain-jack]

I would not consider it a commandment in the sense that they will be judged for it.

Why not? If they are called to do it, then it seems that they are given an order, a commandment to do so because it is what is needed or best at the time.

Paul says if "if they cannot contain, let them marry" (1Cor 7:9).

So let me get this right, those who don't think they can keep it in their pants are called to marry? That means that everyone should, seeing as most will eventually feel those urges around someone during their life.

Paul says "Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called" (1Cor 7:20).

So God tells people "Sorry, I know you want kids, but it's not for you, so be happy in that."? Hmm, what a loving God. He'll let people who shouldn't have children, have them. But those who do want them and would probably be great parents, no luck.

Children are a gift from God.

I know that, but you didn't even attempt to answer my question with this. Nice strawman.

This what Paul teaches:

• 1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. [10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.)
  

I already know what scriptures you use to defend your position. But I still don't buy into this.

[johnny]

captain-jack

Why not? If they are called to do it, then it seems that they are given an order, a commandment to do so because it is what is needed or best at the time.

Marriage is a calling, it is not a commandment. The commandment of God is believe and love one another. We will not be judged on our response to the calling of marriage, we will judged on believe and love one another. When we love God we keep his commandments, not man made commandments

We do not becomes that called gods because we marry, we become that called gods because the word of God comes to us. We are not exalted because we marry, we are exalted because we humble ourselves like little children.

So let me get this right, those who don't think they can keep it in their pants are called to marry? That means that everyone should, seeing as most will eventually feel those urges around someone during their life.

It is not everyone, only those have a particular gift from God will get those urges.

So God tells people "Sorry, I know you want kids, but it's not for you, so be happy in that."? Hmm, what a loving God. He'll let people who shouldn't have children, have them. But those who do want them and would probably be great parents, no luck.

Again kids are a gift from God, he has wisdom and infinite understanding.

I know that, but you didn't even attempt to answer my question with this. Nice strawman.

I have answered by what scripture reveals, please provide some scriptures to support your view or your thoughts.

I already know what scriptures you use to defend your position. But I still don't buy into this.

I believe the inspired word of God, it appears then you do not because you say "I still don't buy into this."

The inspired word of God reveals marriage is not a commandment. The man-made Mormon commandment of marriage is contrary to what the inspired word of God reveals.

[Glenn101]

captain-jack

Marriage is a calling, it is not a commandment. The commandment of God is believe and love one another. We will not be judged on our response to the calling of marriage, we will judged on believe and love one another. When we love God we keep his commandments, not man made commandments

We do not becomes that called gods because we marry, we become that called gods because the word of God comes to us. We are not exalted because we marry, we are exalted because we humble ourselves like little children.

It is not everyone, only those have a particular gift from God will get those urges.

Again kids are a gift from God, he has wisdom and infinite understanding.

I have answered by what scripture reveals, please provide some scriptures to support your view or your thoughts.

I believe the inspired word of God, it appears then you do not because you say "I still don't buy into this."

The inspired word of God reveals marriage is not a commandment. The man-made Mormon commandment of marriage is contrary to what the inspired word of God reveals.

Gen. 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

If you can find a scriptural reference where God has changed his mind about that, please enlighten us.

Deut. 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husbandâ??s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husbandâ??s brother unto her."

1 Tim. 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

These verses are the proof text for most non-LDS Christians as the prohibition against polygamy. But the text clearly shows that those who hold the office of bishop, elder, or deacon must be married.

1 Cor. 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

While non of those scriptures are "proof" indisputable that marriage is a commandment, the overall context is at least persuasive that marriage is instituted for man by God and intended for all men. Although there is no eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt marry" the expectations and practice is pretty clear.

Glenn

[johnny]

glennthigpen

If you can find a scriptural reference where God has changed his mind about that, please enlighten us.

No change ... what is your point?

These verses are the proof text for most non-LDS Christians as the prohibition against polygamy. But the text clearly shows that those who hold the office of bishop, elder, or deacon must be married.

Which verses says "must be married"?

Those called to marriage are "the husband of one wife"

While non of those scriptures are "proof" indisputable that marriage is a commandment, the overall context is at least persuasive that marriage is instituted for man by God and intended for all men. Although there is no eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt marry" the expectations and practice is pretty clear

The overall context that some are called to marriage and some are not.

You are correct when you say "While non of those scriptures are "proof" indisputable that marriage is a commandment".

The Mormon commandment of marriage is man-made.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

To say that some are 'called' to be married implies some sort of pre-destination, that marriage is not a choice we make. We are commanded to marry if the right situation presents itself, but as marriage is a commandment that hinges on the free-agency of another we cannot be judged because another person doesn't choose to marry us. No one can be forced to follow God's commandments, and no one can be punished for the sins of another. Those who do not marry in this life, through no fault of their own, will be able to reside with Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom at the level of that of the angels if they are worthy to achieve that level (See Luke 20:34+35).

[johnny]

cjwright

To say that some are 'called' to be married implies some sort of pre-destination, that marriage is not a choice we make.

Marriage is a choice, we can receive or not receive Every man has his proper gift of God.

We are commanded to marry if the right situation presents itself, but as marriage is a commandment that hinges on the free-agency of another we cannot be judged because another person doesn't choose to marry us.

We are not commanded to marry like you have indicated. Some are called to marry and some are called to not marry. Marriage is not a commandment, the commandments of God is believe and love one another.

No one can be forced to follow God's commandments, and no one can be punished for the sins of another. Those who do not marry in this life, through no fault of their own, will be able to reside with Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom at the level of that of the angels if they are worthy to achieve that level (See Luke 20:34+35).

Those who do not marry can be that called gods. Those who do not marry are not separated from their spouse and children like the Mormon Church teaches. Marriage is not essential for exaltation like the Mormon Church teaches.

[cjwright]

Marriage is a choice, we can receive or not receive Every man has his proper gift of God.

We are not commanded to marry like you have indicated. Some are called to marry and some are called to not marry. Marriage is not a commandment, the commandments of God is believe and love one another.

How can marriage be a choice and a calling? They are two contradictory concepts. You either choose to get married, or you are called to be married regardless of your own choice (i.e. you choose that you want to be married, but because you are not one of those that have been called to, you can't)

Those who do not marry can be that called gods. Those who do not marry are not separated from their spouse and children like the Mormon Church teaches. Marriage is not essential for exaltation like the Mormon Church teaches.

First, you don't even believe in the concept that man can become gods. Second, how can someone who doesn't marry be separated from a spouse they are not married to? Third, if an unmarried person has children they are still sealed to them, the LDS Church does not teach the concept you said. And fourth, the Church teaches that marriage is essential being in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, and as exaltation is living in the Celestial Kingdom, being unmarried will get you to the Celestial Kingdom if you are worthy to recieve that, just not to the highest part.

[johnny]

cjwright

How can marriage be a choice and a calling? They are two contradictory concepts. You either choose to get married, or you are called to be married regardless of your own choice (i.e. you choose that you want to be married, but because you are not one of those that have been called to, you can't)

Scripture calls marriage a calling. Men have free choice.

First, you don't even believe in the concept that man can become gods.

I am a Catholic, I believe in "the concept that man can become gods", see Catholic teaching below:

460 - The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": [2 Pt 1:4] "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods"

Second, how can someone who doesn't marry be separated from a spouse they are not married to?

Those who do not marry do not have a spouse.

Third, if an unmarried person has children they are still sealed to them, the LDS Church does not teach the concept you said.

The Mormon Church teaches:

Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "If we obey the commandments of the Lord, our families will be together forever as husband, wife, and children."

And fourth, the Church teaches that marriage is essential being in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, and as exaltation is living in the Celestial Kingdom, being unmarried will get you to the Celestial Kingdom if you are worthy to recieve that, just not to the highest part.

The Mormon Church teaches:

Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..."

[captain-jack]

Marriage is a calling, it is not a commandment.

Then tell me the difference between being called of and commanded.

The commandment of God is believe and love one another. We will not be judged on our response to the calling of marriage, we will judged on believe and love one another. When we love God we keep his commandments, not man made commandments.

We also do not follow the philosophies of men, such as a Trinity, or praying to Mary. I am not accusing you of such, but I do know Catholics that believe and do as such.

We do not becomes that called gods because we marry, we become that called gods because the word of God comes to us. We are not exalted because we marry, we are exalted because we humble ourselves like little children.

I have no clue what you meant to say here, but I'm sure you were trying to work out how exactly you wanted to say it. I hate those moments, I tend to suffer from them many times I post.

It is not everyone, only those have a particular gift from God will get those urges.

Then this generation is very gifted, according to that.

Again kids are a gift from God, he has wisdom and infinite understanding.

I do not ask if they are a gift from God. I asked you how that can be, a woman who is married, feels the call to have children, but finds she is unable. How is that fair?

I have answered by what scripture reveals, please provide some scriptures to support your view or your thoughts.

Matt 21:22

If a woman who is married asks for a child, loves God, follows Him the best she say, and say she is a Catholic, but never receives a child. How does that fit with the scripture I just cited?

I believe the inspired word of God, it appears then you do not because you say "I still don't buy into this."

Thank you for such Christ-like behavior. Glad to know you exemplify the Phairasee attitude so well.

The inspired word of God reveals marriage is not a commandment. The man-made Mormon commandment of marriage is contrary to what the inspired word of God reveals.

You interpretation of it does.

[johnny]

captain-jack

Then tell me the difference between being called of and commanded.

The difference is with a calling a person is given a particular gift from God.

We also do not follow the philosophies of men, such as a Trinity, or praying to Mary. I am not accusing you of such, but I do know Catholics that believe and do as such.

It is evident you do not know scripture nor the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trintiy is consistent with what the inspired word of God reveals.

I do not ask if they are a gift from God. I asked you how that can be, a woman who is married, feels the call to have children, but finds she is unable. How is that fair?

This Bible does not reveal those details.

Matt 21:22

If a woman who is married asks for a child, loves God, follows Him the best she say, and say she is a Catholic, but never receives a child. How does that fit with the scripture I just cited?

Again children are a gift from God, it is up to his grace.

You interpretation of it does.

Please provide Bible scripture that reveals marriage is a commandment like the Mormon Church teaches.

[cjwright]

Scripture calls marriage a calling. Men have free choice.

If Marriage is a calling, and callings are from God, doesn't that make that calling a commandment, which we have free choice to choose to follow or not? Also where in the Bible does it say that marriage is a calling?

I am a Catholic, I believe in "the concept that man can become gods", see Catholic teaching below:

460 - The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": [2 Pt 1:4] "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods"

Sorry, maybe I got confused with all the other Christian religions saying that a belief in this concept doesn't make you a Christian.

Those who do not marry do not have a spouse.

So we are in agreement, though you did say that according to Church teachings those who are not married are separated from their spouse:

Those who do not marry are not separated from their spouse and children like the Mormon Church teaches.

The Mormon Church teaches:

Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "If we obey the commandments of the Lord, our families will be together forever as husband, wife, and children."

I don't see your problem with this teaching.

The Mormon Church teaches:

Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..."

This is true, and in the whole section which the first part of your statement is a heading to, illustrates that marriage is not just for this life but for eternity, and also counters your point when you say that the Church teaches that those that aren't married are separated from their family. If you believe that marriage is not eternal then you would be separated from your family once you die, the LDS Church teaches the opposite to that.

For those that are married, Eternal Marriage, performed by the proper Priesthood Authority is essential for exaltation, but for those who are not married in this life can achieve exaltation - eternal life with Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom - if they are worthy to (see D&C 137: 7-10). Maybe you shouldn't cherry pick principles without looking at all of the principles of the Gospel. It seems for you each statement is 'all or nothing' regardless of what the scriptures and Church publications say as a whole about each principle. The Church strives for the 'ideals' but caters for those whose circumstances in this life are not always the ideal.

[johnny]

cjwright

If Marriage is a calling, and callings are from God, doesn't that make that calling a commandment, which we have free choice to choose to follow or not? Also where in the Bible does it say that marriage is a calling?

I would not consider marriage a commandment. 1Cor 7 reveals marriage is a calling.

I don't see your problem with this teaching.

The problem with the Mormon teaching is that not all the righteous will be together forever. The Mormon teaching reveals that if you do not obey the Mormon commandments the family will be separated forever.

This is true, and in the whole section which the first part of your statement is a heading to, illustrates that marriage is not just for this life but for eternity, and also counters your point when you say that the Church teaches that those that aren't married are separated from their family. If you believe that marriage is not eternal then you would be separated from your family once you die, the LDS Church teaches the opposite to that.

Marriage ends when one of the spouses dies. I believe that all the righteous will be together for eternity.

For those that are married, Eternal Marriage, performed by the proper Priesthood Authority is essential for exaltation, but for those who are not married in this life can achieve exaltation - eternal life with Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom - if they are worthy to (see D&C 137: 7-10). Maybe you shouldn't cherry pick principles without looking at all of the principles of the Gospel. It seems for you each statement is 'all or nothing' regardless of what the scriptures and Church publications say as a whole about each principle. The Church strives for the 'ideals' but caters for those whose circumstances in this life are not always the ideal.

The Bible does not reveal that marriage is essential for exaltation.

[Teancum]

cjwright

The Bible does not reveal that marriage is essential for exaltation.

Agreed.

LDS do not rely on the Bible for all their doctrine. They believe all that God has revealed, all that he does reveal and that he will yet reveal many great and important things.

So for an LDS believer it is a moot point whether or not the bible teaches this.

But then you knew that did you not?

[cjwright]

Johnny,

I would not consider marriage a commandment. 1Cor 7 reveals marriage is a calling.

1 Cor 7 doesn't specficially state that marriage is a calling.

The problem with the Mormon teaching is that not all the righteous will be together forever. The Mormon teaching reveals that if you do not obey the Mormon commandments the family will be separated forever.

LDS teaching doesn't say that not all righteous will be together forever. It says that those who inherit different Kingdoms will not live together, and it doesn't say that they will be separated forever. I don't live with my parents, it doesn't mean that they cease to be my parents or that I can't visit them. Where does it say in LDS teaching or the Bible that if you are in the Celestial Kingdom you can't visit a lower kingdom? Where does it say that everyone in the Celestial Kingdom won't live together? You are confusing different Kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestial and Telestial) with different degrees within each Kingdom.

Marriage ends when one of the spouses dies.

The concept that marriage ends when one spouse dies denies scripture - 'what shall be bound on earth shall be bound in heaven'.

I believe that all the righteous will be together for eternity.

By not understanding the difference between the Kingdoms and the degress within those Kingdoms you have come to a wrong conclusion. What you say here separates also families, if certain members of the family are more righteous than others. LDS teaching seals families together, my parents will always be my parents, and my children will always be my children (turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and turning the hearts of the children to the fathers) regardless of which Kingdom of God they inherit.

The Bible does not reveal that marriage is essential for exaltation.

LDS teaching does not state that exaltation is only achieved if you are married.

[johnny]

cjwright

1 Cor 7 doesn't specficially state that marriage is a calling.

Read again ...

• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. [10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. .)
  

I don't live with my parents, it doesn't mean that they cease to be my parents or that I can't visit them. Where does it say in LDS teaching or the Bible that if you are in the Celestial Kingdom you can't visit a lower kingdom?

In LDS theology can those in a lower kingdom visit those in a higher kingdom?

Where does it say that everyone in the Celestial Kingdom won't live together?

Will those in Celestial Kingdom live together with those in Terrestrial Kingdom?

The concept that marriage ends when one spouse dies denies scripture - 'what shall be bound on earth shall be bound in heaven'.

This scripture is not about marriage, if you think it is then please explain and give examples in scripture.

What you say here separates also families, if certain members of the family are more righteous than others.

After Final Judgment, all the righteous are together in the celestial kingdom with their heavenly Father. Their are not different degrees of righteousness or glory after Final Judgment.

LDS teaching does not state that exaltation is only achieved if you are married.

Why then does the LDS church teach the following:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..."
  

[cjwright]

Read again ...

• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. [10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. .)
  

I would see your point, if it wasn't for the fact that you have cut out a good number of verses from 1 Cor 7 that put the point in context, and in no relation is marriage specifically called a calling.

In LDS theology can those in a lower kingdom visit those in a higher kingdom?

In your theology can the unrighteous be with the righteous?

Will those in Celestial Kingdom live together with those in Terrestrial Kingdom?

You were talking about how under LDS teaching all the righteous won't live together. All the righteous will be in the Celestial Kingdom, so they will all live together. You need to understand the different critera between those who will inherit the Celestial and those who will inherit the Terrestial Kingdom (D&C 76, 131 & 137).

This scripture is not about marriage, if you think it is then please explain and give examples in scripture.

That scripture was talking about the sealing power of the Priesthood, which is involved in not just eternal marriage, but also in sealing parents to children. If you want to see all the scriptures pertaining to marriage go to the Topical Guide in LDS editions of the Bible and look at all the cross-references to marriage, and Celestial marriage inparticular.

After Final Judgment, all the righteous are together in the celestial kingdom with their heavenly Father. Their are not different degrees of righteousness or glory after Final Judgment.

The degrees in which someone will be in the Celestial Kingdom will be given at the final judgment, but they will all still be together in the Celestial Kingdom. No where in LDS teaching does it say that those of different degrees of glory will be separated within each Kingdom.

Why then does the LDS church teach the following:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..."
  

Because for those that are married in this life Eternal Marriage is essential for exaltation, but, as I have already explained, LDS teaching does not state that exaltation is only achieved if you are married. Do you see the difference?

[johnny]

cjwright

I would see your point, if it wasn't for the fact that you have cut out a good number of verses from 1 Cor 7 that put the point in context, and in no relation is marriage specifically called a calling.

In 1Cor 7 is marriage associated with a calling, if is not then please put the verses in 1Cor 7 into context?

In your theology can the unrighteous be with the righteous?

The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9).

You were talking about how under LDS teaching all the righteous won't live together. All the righteous will be in the Celestial Kingdom, so they will all live together. You need to understand the different critera between those who will inherit the Celestial and those who will inherit the Terrestial Kingdom (D&C 76, 131 & 137).

My understanding is that those in the Terrestial Kingdom are those who "received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant" (see below). For me these folks are righteous and they will be in the Celestial Kingdom, so they will all live together.

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: .. Celestial ... become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple ... will live with Heavenly Father... Terrestrial ... received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant ... Telestial ... did not receive the gospel ... they who are liars ... Outer Darkness ... they denied the Holy Spirit ... They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. "
  

That scripture was talking about the sealing power of the Priesthood, which is involved in not just eternal marriage, but also in sealing parents to children. If you want to see all the scriptures pertaining to marriage go to the Topical Guide in LDS editions of the Bible and look at all the cross-references to marriage, and Celestial marriage inparticular.

I would agree that scripture was talking about the sealing power of the Priesthood.

I would disagree that it is associated with marriage and children, if you you think it does could you please provide the Bible scripture to support your view.

God is the one that joins a man and a woman.

The degrees in which someone will be in the Celestial Kingdom will be given at the final judgment, but they will all still be together in the Celestial Kingdom. No where in LDS teaching does it say that those of different degrees of glory will be separated within each Kingdom.

I am not saying within each Kingdom. I am saying that there are NOT different degree of glory AFTER final Judgment. The Mormon Church teaches there are different degree's of glory after final judgment (see below).

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "Assignment to Glories ... members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ. ... the celestial kingdom (the highest degree of glory), the terrestrial kingdom (the second degree), the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree), or outer darkness (the kingdom of the devil--not a degree of glory)"
  

Because for those that are married in this life Eternal Marriage is essential for exaltation, but, as I have already explained, LDS teaching does not state that exaltation is only achieved if you are married. Do you see the difference?

I am not seeing the difference ... what is needed in the teaching of the LDS teaching to become "gods"?

At the Final Judgment it it essential that a person need to be eternally married to become "gods"?

[cjwright]

In 1Cor 7 is marriage associated with a calling, if is not then please put the verses in 1Cor 7 into context?

The context is already there in the Bible, you just omitted the verses in between to prove your point, one that is not supported by reading the chapter as a whole.

The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9).

So we are in agreement, the unrighteous will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

My understanding is that those in the Terrestial Kingdom are those who "received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant" For me these folks are righteous and they will be in the Celestial Kingdom, so they will all live together.

What do you think being not valiant means if you don't see that it means they have not lived as righteouly as they should do to inherit the Celestial Kingdom?

I would agree that scripture was talking about the sealing power of the Priesthood.

I would disagree that it is associated with marriage and children, if you you think it does could you please provide the Bible scripture to support your view.

God is the one that joins a man and a woman.

If you agree with that the scripture is refering to the sealing power of the Priesthood, what do you think it is sealing if you don't see it's association with marriage and children. As for the scripture references, I told you where to find them in the Topical Guide, why can't you look for yourself, or does the fact that you will see them in context damage your argument too much?

I am not saying within each Kingdom. I am saying that there are NOT different degree of glory AFTER final Judgment. The Mormon Church teaches there are different degree's of glory after final judgment (see below).

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "Assignment to Glories ... members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ. ... the celestial kingdom (the highest degree of glory), the terrestrial kingdom (the second degree), the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree), or outer darkness (the kingdom of the devil--not a degree of glory)"
  

There are degrees of glory within each kingdom, not understanding that principle is where you are getting confused.

I am not seeing the difference ... what is needed in the teaching of the LDS teaching to become "gods"?

At the Final Judgment it it essential that a person need to be eternally married to become "gods"?

Obviously you are not seeing the difference, if you are asking the question then you haven't actually looked for the answer, the answers are there in the scriptures, use the Topical Guide and find all the references you are looking for, then maybe you will see the difference.

If you don't look at where we get all our information from regarding our beliefs how can you think you are anywhere near prepared to question our beliefs without looking like a complete fool, holding your head in your hands, crying 'I don't understand'.

[johnny]

cjwright

The context is already there in the Bible, you just omitted the verses in between to prove your point, one that is not supported by reading the chapter as a whole.

I would disagree, please support your position. I omitted the verse because they were not directly related. Below is the full chapter, please point out the the words that support your position:

1Cor.7

[1] Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

[2] Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

[3] Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

[4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

[5] Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

[6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

[7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

[8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

[9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

[10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

[11] But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

[12] But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

[13] And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

[14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

[15] But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

[16] For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

[17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

[18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

[19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

[21] Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

[22] For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

[23] Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

[24] Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

[25] Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

[26] I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

[27] Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

[28] But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

[29] But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

[30] And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;

[31] And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

[32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

[33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

[34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

[35] And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

[36] But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

[37] Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

[38] So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

[39] The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

[40] But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

What do you think being not valiant means if you don't see that it means they have not lived as righteouly as they should do to inherit the Celestial Kingdom?

I think it means receiving the free gift of righteousness through faith.

If you agree with that the scripture is refering to the sealing power of the Priesthood, what do you think it is sealing if you don't see it's association with marriage and children.

As a Catholic this is what I believe it is referring too, see below

• 553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The "power of the keys" designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep." The power to "bind and loose" connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
  

As for the scripture references, I told you where to find them in the Topical Guide, why can't you look for yourself, or does the fact that you will see them in context damage your argument too much?

None of the Bible passages listed associate marriage and the sealing power of the priesthood.

There are degrees of glory within each kingdom, not understanding that principle is where you are getting confused.

Scripture reveals one glory after Final judgment, it does not reveal "There are degrees of glory within each kingdom" like the Mormon Church teaches.

[Olavarria]

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

Love the Savior, do what He says. Done.

Who cares about the metaphysics of how it all comes about?

The funny thing about this is, that when we try to argue that "No, no, we believe we are saved by grace too" it looks like we are trying to water-down mormonism into a more "palpable" form of "Christianity". Even if we aren't.

I like the traditional interpretation, or at least it's mine. We have to work out, even try to earn our exaltation. If we fall short, and we will, the atonement is there to fill in the gap.

In the end, we all have gaps to fill thus you can't earn exaltation in the strictest sense of the word. But works count for alot.

A former pimp(prostitute boss) that converts in his 80's=HUGE Gap. A nine yearold holocaust victim=little gap. Of course, a work, in and of itself has no power to save us. But I think this is an unnessasary spliting of theological hairs.

Works matter, or at least thats what I get from reading the Old Testament.

Also, "saved by grace". When we talk about salvation we are talking about a very different thing than Evs. Evs are thinking about escaping a "lake of fire" and going to "heaven". We are thinking about the difference between living in an angel state and godhood. Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Mormons, Muslims="lake of fire". Christians=heaven. We know things aren't that binary. We aren't just trying to live with God and the angels. We are trying to be Gods ourselves, with our own angels. When it comes to exaltation(godhood), works seem to count for alot.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

[cjwright]

Johnny,

I would disagree, please support your position. I omitted the verse because they were not directly related. Below is the full chapter, please point out the the words that support your position

Your statement already supports my position, as the omitted verses are not directly related you can not say that it specifically says that marriage is a calling, that is your own interpretation.

I think it means receiving the free gift of righteousness through faith.

Again, your own interpretation, to us the term 'not valiant' means that they knew the principles of the Gospel and the commandments of God but did not stick to them as they have been commanded to. If you believe you are righteous just because you have faith then you REALLY don't understand the scriptures. (See Romans 6:15+16)

As a Catholic this is what I believe it is referring too, see below

• 553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The "power of the keys" designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep." The power to "bind and loose" connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
  

That again is your own interpretation of scripture, refering to something being bound and loose is in context with the sealing power of the Priesthood, not really in the context of absolving sin.

None of the Bible passages listed associate marriage and the sealing power of the priesthood.

And again, your own interpretation, because you don't understand the context of the sealing power of the Priesthood in the keys given to Peter, you don't understand them in relation to the other scripture references on marriage.

Scripture reveals one glory after Final judgment, it does not reveal "There are degrees of glory within each kingdom" like the Mormon Church teaches.

Scripture actualy reveals there is more than one glory (1 Cor 15:40)

We believe that the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price are all scripture, so for us scripture reveals everything, far clearer than just using one of these, in your case just the Bible. That's the blessing of the Restoration.

If you can't accept why we believe what we believe, and the fact that we have a different interpretation of the scriptures, then you are of course not going to understand what we believe and the continuity of our beliefs with the scriptures. Which is why you misrepresent 2 Nephi 25:23, because you don't understand that the next two verses explain that even though the people of Nephi know that they are saved by the grace of Christ, they still have to follow the commandments - in their case the Law of Moses, and for your argument to work you need to prove that the Bible says that you can break the commandments and still be saved, it's as simple as that.