Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[johnny]

captain-jack

You confuse two things, there is a difference between living with and having access to. But I am doubting that will make a difference to you.

What do you mean ... to me if a son or daughter of God is not living with their heavenly Father in his glory with his blessings then this is damnation.

In Mormon theology will the unmarried son or daughter of God be denied living with their heavenly Father in his glory?

In Mormon theology is it damnation if a person is not living with their heavenly Father in his glory.

[consiglieri]

Flyonthewall

Sounds good ... enjoyed the exchange of views ..

I'm not sure you actually know the meaning of "exchange," Johnny.

[coolrok7]

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

Going back to what started this. I'll provide the following from the "official" teaching of the Mormon Church for the context of those not Mormon who don't accept the premise of the thread (speaking for me, maybe for the others if there are no objections by them). The underlined above are not the words I have used to explain Mormonism. I will use the words offered by Mormonism itself.

People are invited to (when it comes to Mormonism):

explore it, to test it, to pray and search and seriously consider. . . .To the extent that you realize the importance of obtaining these answers, you will be prompted to inquire concerning their sourceâ??The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Mormons are called to:

To meet the opponents of the church, both in public and in privateâ??

Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you in public and private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. (D&C 71:7-

Note this LDS Church advertisement from a past Readerâ??s Digest (from last page of an insert about â??Mormon Missionariesâ? entitled, â??When You Open the Doorâ?):

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The verse from the BofM (Mormon so-called "Scripture"):

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

I'm contending (for the faith delivered to the saints) that the "after all we can do" is being added to Paul's statement in Ephesians where it is stated that "by grace are ye saved through faith" is not by "works":

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Our position is that works are a fruit of and follow faith so we are not denying the doing of good works in which we are always told that we deny this, which is a false accusation on Mormonism's part in this. We affirm this statement of Paul:

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-

From a proselytizing pamphlet meant to explain to those not Mormon (those being invited to learn about Mormons are referred to as "investigators") the "official" and some not "official" but in agreement with the "official" teaching of the Mormon Church:

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a giftto every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

The Phillipian jailer asked Paul, "what must I do to be saved? Paul's response, "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". The whole family the same evening were baptized! (see Acts 16)

Paul clearly teaches that:

]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here is the above verse modified to reflect LDS theology:

For by grace are you resurrected [have salvation] through Jesus Christ, even murderers, which is not by faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not by works lest any man should boast, except for [*] Joseph Smith. But the reward of the highest eternal opportunities, or in other words exaltation in the celestial kingdom, you must work for/earn or merit for yourself, which is by faith. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them.

[* Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. . .When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp.408, 409)]

And thus one becomes an Elohim to their posterity on another planet, just like Heavenly Father and His wife or wives have done for us; like all the gods have done before. Except for those who receive of the lesser glories, which are the terrestrial and telestial, who are dammed from further progression. And those who are the sons of perdition, even apostates, these will go into outer darkness. Eternal punishment is Godâ??s punishment; everlasting punishment is Godâ??s punishment. In other words, it is the name of the punishment God inflicts, he being eternal in his nature. Whosoever, therefore, receives Godâ??s punishment, whether it is endured one hour, one day, one week, one year, or an age. . . .or in other words eternal is not forever. (From a compilation of LDS pamphlets)

In a Church temple preparation teaching manual concerning Celestial marriage (D&C 132 which also teaches a plurality of wives), The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the following doctrine (eternal progression- the false gospel of Mormonism):

As shown in this chapter our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children. . . .It is this fact that makes marriage in a temple of God such an important step in our eternal progression. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written this: â??Celestial marriage is a holy and an eternal ordinance;. . .The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, by the right authority; and 2., to keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony--thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.â? (Mormon Doctrine, p.118) (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, 1992, p.132)

In a lesson contained in a Church teaching manualâ??Search These Commandments, subtitled, â??Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guideâ? (Lesson 21, pp. 151-156; 1984), the following is stated (the title of the lesson is: â??God was Once a Man As We Are Nowâ?):

When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriach to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, â??and you cannot wish to be greaterâ? (Eliza R, Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, 9â??10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: â??The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meâ??the eyes of my understanding were opened and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.â? Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: â?? As man now is God once was. As God now is, man may be.â? Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: â??Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and is a revelation of God to youâ? (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in â??Devotion to Divine Inspiration,â? Improvement Era [June 1919]: 651-56)

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

This is not the Biblical way of being "saved by grace through faith not by works". The Bible does not teach the above (except for points 1, 2).

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. . . .Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. (Acts 2:21, 38-43)

Mormonism didn't exist until it came out of Joseph Smith's own mouth and therefore not consistent with first century apostles teaching!

Miracles in and of themselves are not necessarily from God. Jesus said the following in the context of warning against false prophets:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:15-23)

[shalamabobbi]

But we don't do the work to be saved ...

Who's the self righteous Pharisee looking down their nose on others??

The Mormon teachings seems to indicate damnation for those who are not married.

Then when you see some allowed to be married in the afterlife and not you, you won't complain about it will you?

Being allowed to continue as a family is a reward, well I don't know if that pertains to your situation..

You right I forgot the following man-made Mormon commandment:

* Gospel Principles Chapter 32 "We have been given commandments ...the Law of Tithing ..."

Mal 3:8-10

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Gen 28:20

And Jacob vowed a vow..

22 ..and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Gen 14:18-20

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

John 8:39 If ye were Abraham's children ye would do the works of Abraham.

Notice that I have not quoted the other OT passages (there are eight more that mention the law of tithing) as they come during and after the time of Moses lest ye say that tithing is a part of the law of Moses that was done away.

Abraham followed the higher law of the gospel of Christ which Christ restored and which included the law of tithing.

Gal 3:8 ..preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law(of Moses), which was four hundred and thirty years after cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (Again the law that Paul preached against observing and that was in conflict with grace-the higher law of the gospel of Christ - was that of the lessor law of Moses)

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How can you claim to love your neighbor when you neglect tithing which was instituted for the purpose of helping the poor?

[johnny]

shalamabobbi

How can you claim to love your neighbor when you neglect tithing which was instituted for the purpose of helping the poor?

Will a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glory?

[Grothar]

Yes Johnny.

As far as I'm aware we are allowed to repent, even in spirit prison. After the Final judgement... not so much (Fellow Mormons, correct me if I'm wrong)

So yeah. I'm pretty sure.

It would be a lot better if we did it on this earth though.

Grothar shrugs.

[Jeff K.]

Will a person who acknowledges Christ as the savior get into heaven without keeping the commandments?

[shalamabobbi]

I'm contending (for the faith delivered to the saints) that the "after all we can do" is being added to Paul's statement in Ephesians where it is stated that "by grace are ye saved through faith" is not by "works":

For by grace are you resurrected [have salvation] through Jesus Christ, even murderers, which is not by faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not by works lest any man should boast, except for [*] Joseph Smith. But the reward of the highest eternal opportunities, or in other words exaltation in the celestial kingdom, you must work for/earn or merit for yourself, which is by faith. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them.

Here is a breakdown for you based upon the grammer of the english language. Of course we don't know how the original made it through the translation process and whether it was altered or not unless we invoke a supernatural phenomenon unknown in the bible record, for there is no such example demonstrated in the bible..

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The concepts here are

1. grace/gift of God

2. salvation

3. faith which w/o works is meaningless. Faith alone is dead as the body w/o the spirit.

4. works which not based in faith are also dead.

I will modify this list as

1. grace/gift of God

2. salvation

3. faith/works which w/o each other are dead.

For by grace are ye saved.. salvation is a function(results from) of grace

ye are saved through faith/works.. salvation is also a function of our faith demonstrated by works

and that not of yourselves.. what is not of yourselves? it is the gift of God.. the grace is not of yourselves (not the salvation which is of both grace and faith/works)

Not of faith/works lest any man should boast.. what is not of faith/works? the gift of grace is not of works (not the salvation)

For we are his workmanship..we depend upon grace, we depend upon faith/works centered in Christ which we can't even know about w/o God sending messengers clothed with the priesthood of God

created in Christ Jesus unto good works.. salvation again due to grace and faith/works

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.. before what? the formation of this world, which is a reference to the premortal existence for those with eyes to see..

And we might note a point of contention that may interest Johnny in the phrase "created in Christ Jesus"

So which is it Johnny?

Does Christ follow Jesus?

Or does Jesus follow Christ?

[coolrok7]

Will a person who acknowledges Christ as the savior get into heaven without keeping the commandments?

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will keep the commandments.

[consiglieri]

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will keep the commandments.

When did coolrok become a Mormon?

[shalamabobbi]

Will a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glory?

I guess that depends on where and what constitutes least in the kingdom of heaven..

Matt 5:19

[Jeff K.]

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will keep the commandments.

And thus your entire line of questions are answered.

[captain-jack]

captain-jack

What do you mean ... to me if a son or daughter of God is not living with their heavenly Father in his glory with his blessings then this is damnation.

We say that they cannot live with Him, but that does not mean that they will never see Him once they move on to the other side. And there will be opportunity in the afterlife for those to marry that have not in this life.

In Mormon theology will the unmarried son or daughter of God be denied living with their heavenly Father in his glory?

My answer would lean towards no but I am not the final authority.

In Mormon theology is it damnation if a person is not living with their heavenly Father in his glory.

Why do you ask this when you have quoted selected books that support your view on it?

I will also refrain from answering further, for two reasons. I do not think our discussion could progress any, and secondly this thread has been hijacked enough.

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos

I have not used it till now because their are some many other verses the show why Mormon doctrine is not Biblical doctrine.

Uh huh ... suuuure.

What is your point ... I know "Ephesians 2:10 talks of the good works you are created to do in order to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

That is my point. I'm pleased you have made that progress.

Sounds like LDS believe grace comes AFTER works ... BoM says "grace ... AFTER all we can do".

Sounds like this LDS key also needs "after all we can do ... obedience" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)

Keep building those strawmen. By the way, you do know that is a form of intellectual dishonesty, do you not? Just an FYI, this is a pretty fair summation of LDS beliefs on this subject.

â??It should be stressed that without the grace of Christ, man's works would avail him nothing in his quest for salvation. The righteous works of man are not unto justification, but unto reconciliation through the grace of Jesus Christ; and then, man's righteous works must flow as an outward expression of the hope and faith of an enlightened and grateful heart. Works of themselves do not save man. But by hope and faith, coupled with obedience to the ordinances of the gospel and the righteous works of service, man is reconciled to God. Man's righteous works merely register the presence and strength of reconciling qualities within him.â? (Hyrum L. Andrus, â??Principles of Perfectionâ?, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, [1970], pgs.187 - 188.)

Who is doing the work?

You tell me: "εαυτων σωτηριαν κατεργαζεσθε" I think the Greek makes it quite clear, don't you?

Paul is saying "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ... justified by his grace ... be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men".

OK, I'll go along with that as well. (See Andrus above.)

Judged by belief ... those who do not believe are damned.

Please point out where in the scriptures it says "Judged by belief." Be ever so careful that you do not choose a passage where it is easier to "read in" baptism (which is ... dare we say it ... a work) than judged.

I think you really need to experience the power of grace. I have experience the power of a witness from the Holy Ghost for myself.

Clearly you do not understand Paul's teaching of grace.

If you say so. ~~smiles ever so condescendingly~~

[johnny]

shalamabobbi

I guess that depends on where and what constitutes least in the kingdom of heaven..

Matt 5:19

I am talking about living with our Heaven Father ...

It is a simply question ...can a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glor

[johnny]

captain-jack

We say that they cannot live with Him, but that does not mean that they will never see Him once they move on to the other side. And there will be opportunity in the afterlife for those to marry that have not in this life.

So it sounds like a person will be damned if they don't obey the Mormon commandment of marriage.

My answer would lean towards no but I am not the final authority.

Why would you lean towards no ... isn't marriage a commandment for Mormon's?

[Jeff K.]

shalamabobbi

I am talking about living with our Heaven Father ...

It is a simply question ...can a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glor

I believe that has been answered but allow me.

QUOTE(Jeff K. @ Jan 2 2009, 11:05 AM)

Will a person who acknowledges Christ as the savior get into heaven without keeping the commandments?

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will keep the commandments.

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will pay tithing....

Does that help?

[johnny]

ebeddoulos

Keep building those strawmen. By the way, you do know that is a form of intellectual dishonesty, do you not?

Explain how it is "a form of intellectual dishonesty"?

Just an FYI, this is a pretty fair summation of LDS beliefs on this subject.

If is is summation why is it missing so many of the Mormon commandants?

Please point out where in the scriptures it says "Judged by belief." Be ever so careful that you do not choose a passage where it is easier to "read in" baptism (which is ... dare we say it ... a work) than judged.

See below,

• Mark.16 ([16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.)
  

[johnny]

Jeff K.

A person who acknowledges Christ, if they are truly a believer in Him, will pay tithing....

Does that help?

That does not help answer my question ... I asked can a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glory?

[Jeff K.]

Actually it does answer the question, and answers it using your own words. Your lack of acknowledgement does not negate the truth of the matter.

[johnny]

Jeff K.

Actually it does answer the question, and answers it using your own words. Your lack of acknowledgement does not negate the truth of the matter.

Please explain how it answers the question ...

I am not following you ... a simple Yes or No would be helpful to the simple question.

[Jeff K.]

Do you believe that acknowledging Christ as your savior but not following the commandments will still get you into heaven johnny?

[Luigi]

Jeff K.

That does not help answer my question ... I asked can a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glory?

Well you see johnny the answer to that question is really quite complicated. For one thing I don't even know if this particular Mormon in question has been saved and after all who are we to say he isn't? I mean if a knife-wielding serial killer could get to heaven because he was saved beforehand who's to say a unmarried non-tithe paying Mormon couldn't be?

[johnny]

Jeff K.

Do you believe that acknowledging Christ as your savior but not following the commandments will still get you into heaven johnny?

A simple Yes or No would be helpful to the simple question ... if not thanks for trying.

[johnny]

Luigi

Well you see johnny the answer to that question is really quite complicated. For one thing I don't even know if this particular Mormon in question has been saved and after all who are we to say he isn't? I mean if a knife-wielding serial killer could get to heaven because he was saved beforehand who's to say a unmarried non-tithe paying Mormon couldn't be?

I don't see it as "quite complicated" ... thanks for responding.