Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[johnny]

cjwright

Your statement already supports my position, as the omitted verses are not directly related you can not say that it specifically says that marriage is a calling, that is your own interpretation.

Do you believe that these verse or any verses in the Bible support the Mormon teaching that marriage is a commandment?

Again, your own interpretation, to us the term 'not valiant' means that they knew the principles of the Gospel and the commandments of God but did not stick to them as they have been commanded to. If you believe you are righteous just because you have faith then you REALLY don't understand the scriptures. (See Romans 6:15+16)

What commandments of God are you talking about, would these include the Mormon commandments of marriage, tithing, do not smoke/drink? If we love God we obey his commandment to believe and love one other, not man-made commandments.

And again, your own interpretation, because you don't understand the context of the sealing power of the Priesthood in the keys given to Peter, you don't understand them in relation to the other scripture references on marriage.

You have not shown any scriptures that associate sealing power with marriage, neither does what you provided earlier.

Scripture actualy reveals there is more than one glory (1 Cor 15:40)

1Cor 15:40 is before the Final Judgment, after Final Judgment there is only one glory.

We believe that the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price are all scripture, so for us scripture reveals everything, far clearer than just using one of these, in your case just the Bible. That's the blessing of the Restoration.

If you can't accept why we believe what we believe, and the fact that we have a different interpretation of the scriptures, then you are of course not going to understand what we believe and the continuity of our beliefs with the scriptures.

I donâ??t accept the doctrine that is revealed by Mormon scriptures because it is contrary to the doctrine revealed in the Bible.

Which is why you misrepresent 2 Nephi 25:23, because you don't understand that the next two verses explain that even though the people of Nephi know that they are saved by the grace of Christ, they still have to follow the commandments - in their case the Law of Moses, and for your argument to work you need to prove that the Bible says that you can break the commandments and still be saved, it's as simple as that.

The issue is what commandants. We need to follow Godâ??s commandments to believe and love one another. We do not need to follow the additional Mormon commandments (e.g. marrige, tithing, do not smoke/drink) to be gods and live with our Heavenly Father, itâ??s as simple as that.

[flameburns623]

. . . . . . .Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

Actually--yes they can. In Catholic theology, anyone who dies sincerely repentant for their sins, and in a state of perfect contrition for all of their sins, will go directly to Heaven.

Even a person who dies in a state of imperfect contrition, but who has recourse at the very end to the Sacraments will go to Heaven ultimately although they will undergo a purification of their love for God in Purgatory before experiencing full Heavenly fellowship with Him.

And of course, those who are invincibly ignorant of their duty to be visibly joined to the Catholic Church, but who would join Her if they knew and understood their obligation to do so, will be judged on the merits of what they do know and understand, and may therefore be saved via a baptism of desire.

Catholic understanding of soteriology--vis'a'vis the Coucnil of Orange, for instance--is that all who achieve Heaven were predestined by God's grace to that end. Per the Council of Trent, however, it is a grave error to teach that those who are condemned to Hell were predestined to their final state. Free will and grace, in Catholic understanding, interact with one another in such a way that their relationship is said to be a mystery--that is, two truths which present to the human mind a paradox that is not easily apprehended or resolved but which do not represent an absolute contradiction.

Italicised words indicate Catholic theological terms or concepts.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

How can marriage be a man-made commandment if it is God who created marriage, and gave commandments against doing sexual acts outside of marriage?

You think that tithing isn't a commandment? You think that you show your love for God by robbing Him when you do not pay tithing?

The Word of Wisdom is not a commandment for those outside the Church, it says as such in D&C 89, however, as we have agreed to abide by it by being members of the LDS Church we show our obedience by following it.

As far as LDS scripture being contrary to the Bible you are very wrong. We have the Bible, all our scriptures are cross-referenced together so we can see the context of each point and what each book of scripture says about them. If there was a contradiction it would be found very easily and quickly. LDS scripture may be contrary to your interpretation of the Bible, but nothing more.

I have answered every one of your points, if you don't like the answers that's your problem, nothing I can do will 'prove' anything to you.

[johnny]

cjwright

How can marriage be a man-made commandment if it is God who created marriage, and gave commandments against doing sexual acts outside of marriage?

God created a lot of things. That does not mean they are commandments. The NT is clear what is Godâ??s commandment.

You think that tithing isn't a commandment? You think that you show your love for God by robbing Him when you do not pay tithing?

I do not think tithing is a commandment. Do you know of a NT verse that calls it a commandment.

The Word of Wisdom is not a commandment for those outside the Church, it says as such in D&C 89, however, as we have agreed to abide by it by being members of the LDS Church we show our obedience by following it.

If you break the commandments in the Word of Wisdom are you allowed to have an eternal marriage?

As far as LDS scripture being contrary to the Bible you are very wrong. We have the Bible, all our scriptures are cross-referenced together so we can see the context of each point and what each book of scripture says about them. If there was a contradiction it would be found very easily and quickly. LDS scripture may be contrary to your interpretation of the Bible, but nothing more.

For me, 2Nephi 25:23 clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8,9 reveals.

[cjwright]

God created a lot of things. That does not mean they are commandments. The NT is clear what is Godâ??s commandment.

If marriage is not a commandment then why are adultry, fornication and homosexuality sins if the practice of them doesn't break a commandment?

The Bible says if you want to have sex you have to get married - how much more of a commandment do you want?

I do not think tithing is a commandment. Do you know of a NT verse that calls it a commandment.

Is that your defence when God asks why you have robbed Him - it wasn't in the New Testament, regardless of the warnings in the Old Testament. Good luck with that.

If you break the commandments in the Word of Wisdom are you allowed to have an eternal marriage?

That question reminds me of the hypocritical ones asked by the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus. You show your lack of understanding by simply asking the question.

For me, 2Nephi 25:23 clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8,9 reveals.

Though it is not contrary to what the Bible says as a whole on this point when you put it in context. 2 Nephi 25: 23-25 clearly states that even though we are saved by the grace of Christ we still have to follow the commandments - that is the entire context of the passage, and if you can show where in the Bible it says that if you have faith in Christ, and are saved by His grace, you don't have to follow the commandments then you have a point. Until you do that everything else you have said is a moot point because they all hinges on interpretation.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

Also, if you think that the references to marriage in Genesis 2:23+24, Matthew 19:5, and Ephesians 5:31 don't constitute a commandment, then I don't know what will for you.

[johnny]

cjwright

If marriage is not a commandment then why are adultry, fornication and homosexuality sins if the practice of them doesn't break a commandment? The Bible says if you want to have sex you have to get married - how much more of a commandment do you want?

These are works of the flesh.

Is that your defence when God asks why you have robbed Him - it wasn't in the New Testament, regardless of the warnings in the Old Testament. Good luck with that

.

I tithe because I love God, I do not tithe because it is a commandment.

That question reminds me of the hypocritical ones asked by the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus. You show your lack of understanding by simply asking the question.

Please explain â?¦ again I ask if you break the commandments in the Word of Wisdom are you allowed to have an eternal marriage

Though it is not contrary to what the Bible says as a whole on this point when you put it in context. 2 Nephi 25: 23-25 clearly states that even though we are saved by the grace of Christ we still have to follow the commandments - that is the entire context of the passage, and if you can show where in the Bible it says that if you have faith in Christ, and are saved by His grace, you don't have to follow the commandments then you have a point. Until you do that everything else you have said is a moot point because they all hinges on interpretation.

The context is commandments â?¦ we not saved by obeying man-made commandments. If we love God we keep his commandments. Godâ??s commandment is believe and love one another.

Also, if you think that the references to marriage in Genesis 2:23+24, Matthew 19:5, and Ephesians 5:31 don't constitute a commandment, then I don't know what will for you

.

I would apply those verses to those who are called to marriage.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

These are works of the flesh.

Because they go against a commandment.

I tithe because I love God, I do not tithe because it is a commandment.

But we are commanded to love God, the first great commandment, and as tithing is a way we show our love for God if we don't do it we are showing we do not love God, so not paying tithing breaks the commandment.

Please explain â?¦ again I ask if you break the commandments in the Word of Wisdom are you allowed to have an eternal marriage

The context is commandments â?¦ we not saved by obeying man-made commandments. If we love God we keep his commandments. Godâ??s commandment is believe and love one another.

If you think that all the commandments we've been given are to believe and love one another then you REALLY have no idea what the scriptures say, or what commandments are.

Eternal Marriage is an eternal state, breaking a commandment is only a temporary state until we repent thanks to Christ's Atonement, if we don't repent for breaking the Word of Wisdom when we said that we would following it, showing our lack of obedience, it would effect the state of our eternal marriage. How it effects the state of eternal marriage is only God's to decide.

I would apply those verses to those who are called to marriage.

Woman was created so man would not be alone, for this cause a man should cleave to his wife, this was established since the beginning by God, if you want to claim that the concept of marriage is not needed you call God a lair.

We are all commanded to be in the state of marriage, but as I said before, we will not be punished for not achieving that state as it requires the willingness of another and a use of their free-agency, and consideration was been made in God's Kingdom for that eventuality. But if you willingly do not look for the right person to marry isn't that going against something established by God, also shows that we don't love Him by disregarding what He has asked of us.

Also you still haven't shown where in the Bible it says that if we are saved by grace we don't have to follow God's commandments, which is what this whole thread is about.

[johnny]

cjwright

Because they go against a commandment.

Which commandment? Marriage is not a commandment of God's.

But we are commanded to love God, the first great commandment, and as tithing is a way we show our love for God if we don't do it we are showing we do not love God, so not paying tithing breaks the commandment

.

It does not break the Mormon commandment of tithing because tithing is not a commandment of the NT.

If you think that all the commandments we've been given are to believe and love one another then you REALLY have no idea what the scriptures say, or what commandments are.

Please provide the scripture that reveal these other commandments. The only commandment I know of in the NT is believe and love one another.

Eternal Marriage is an eternal state, breaking a commandment is only a temporary state until we repent thanks to Christ's Atonement, if we don't repent for breaking the Word of Wisdom when we said that we would following it, showing our lack of obedience, it would effect the state of our eternal marriage. How it effects the state of eternal marriage is only God's to decide

.

Just so I understand you correctly â?¦ are you saying if a person does quit drinking wine then they can not get married in the Mormon Church.

Woman was created so man would not be alone, for this cause a man should cleave to his wife, this was established since the beginning by God, if you want to claim that the concept of marriage is not needed you call God a lair.

You are describe in the beginning, in the beginning woman was created so man would not be alone.

We are all commanded to be in the state of marriage, but as I said before, we will not be punished for not achieving that state as it requires the willingness of another and a use of their free-agency, and consideration was been made in God's Kingdom for that eventuality. But if you willingly do not look for the right person to marry isn't that going against something established by God, also shows that we don't love Him by disregarding what He has asked of us

.

We are not ALL commanded to be in a state of marriage. Jesus and the apostle Paul would disagree with you.

Also you still haven't shown where in the Bible it says that if we are saved by grace we don't have to follow God's commandments, which is what this whole thread is about

.

We obey Godâ??s commandment to believe and love one another, we do not need to obey man-made commandments to be saved.

[Luigi]

I tithe because I love God, I do not tithe because it is a commandment.

So did you start loving God because he was going to throw you in hell if you didn't love him?

Also are you concerned that you might stop believing/loving God if you didn't pay tithing?

[Grothar]

Heeeeere's Johnny

Seriously, just drop it CJ it's impossible to get through to him.

Grothar, walks away

[consiglieri]

So did you start loving God because he was going to throw you in hell if you didn't love him?

Also are you concerned that you might stop believing/loving God if you didn't pay tithing?

I feel this responses capsulizes what I said a few hundred posts ago--that it is impossible to say that following the commandments of God are solely and 100% out of love for God, and not out of any personal interest, when God has said that a failure to abide by the commandments has some pretty dire consequences.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cjwright]

Johnny,

Which commandment? Marriage is not a commandment of God's.

Under your definition it isn't but that definition is not supported by scripture - everything God tells us to do is a commandment, or are you re-defining the dictionary on the word command?

It does not break the Mormon commandment of tithing because tithing is not a commandment of the NT.

The LDS Church gets its commandment to pay tithing from the OT. Are you saying then that robbing God shows Him we love Him?

Please provide the scripture that reveal these other commandments. The only commandment I know of in the NT is believe and love one another.

Everything God asks of us is a commandment. All the commandments of the OT are manifested in the commandments of love God and love one another. So in order to keep the commandments to love God and love one another you still have to do those things we have been commanded to do. If we take the Lord's name in vain, we are breaking the commandment to love God, when we steal, we break the commandment to love one another. Do you see where I'm coming from? We don't need a list of 'Thou shalt and thou shalt not' because they are all encompassed in those two commandments.

Just so I understand you correctly â?¦ are you saying if a person does quit drinking wine then they can not get married in the Mormon Church.

If you do not follow the Word of Wisdom when you are a member of the Church you can't get a Temple Recommend to enter the Temple and perform the sealing ordinance for yourself. As we do vicarious work for those who have died, the sealing ordinance will be done by a proxy if a person has not been able to perform those ordinances for themselves while they are alive, for what ever reason. All couples will be sealed together and children will be sealed to their parents, regardless of worthiness, they just will not be able to have the full benefits of the sealing ordinance unless they have proved worthy enough to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. For someone who supposedly has read the Gospel Principles manual you show a very stark knowledge of LDS teachings.

You are describe in the beginning, in the beginning woman was created so man would not be alone.

Yes, and that the same principle existed at the time of Christ, and afterwards, as those scripture references proved. Marriage is a commandment and has been since the time of Adam.

We are not ALL commanded to be in a state of marriage. Jesus and the apostle Paul would disagree with you.

We are all commanded to strive for a state of marriage, Jesus and the apostle Paul would agree with me.

We obey Godâ??s commandment to believe and love one another, we do not need to obey man-made commandments to be saved.

This point is not the reason for this thread, the reason for this thread is about the misrepresentation of 2 Nephi 25:23. You state that the scripture clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8+9 reveals, however 2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandments. If 2 Nephi 25:23-25 contradicts Eph 2:8+9 show that Eph 2:8+9 states that you don't have to follow the commandments if you are saved by grace. If Eph 2:8+9 does not show that you do not have to follow the commandments if we are saved by grace you have NO argument over misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23, you have misrepresented it, case closed.

[cksalmon]

Thanks for the quotes. The risk of asking for references is that you get what you ask for and the results do not support your point of view.

I'm virtually positive that Spencer Kimball speaks of earning salvation in Miracle of Forgiveness. I believe he also references the 2 Nephi passage in that context. I'll have to look it up later when I'm at home.

Best.

cks

[consiglieri]

I'm virtually positive that Spencer Kimball speaks of earning salvation in Miracle of Forgiveness. I believe he also references the 2 Nephi passage in that context. I'll have to look it up later when I'm at home.

Best.

cks

I have no doubt that you are right, CKS.

You might also try to google the phrase, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," as I recall that being a favorite of President Kimball's.

Here's one!

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:JDmXT...=us&strip=1

Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

cjwright

Under your definition it isn't but that definition is not supported by scripture - everything God tells us to do is a commandment, or are you re-defining the dictionary on the word command?

You say â??everything God tells us to do is a commandmentâ? â?¦ does this include all the hundreds of commandments in the OT?

The LDS Church gets its commandment to pay tithing from the OT. Are you saying then that robbing God shows Him we love Him?

Tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church. The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2 and in 2 Corinthians 9:5-8.

Everything God asks of us is a commandment. All the commandments of the OT are manifested in the commandments of love God and love one another. So in order to keep the commandments to love God and love one another you still have to do those things we have been commanded to do. If we take the Lord's name in vain, we are breaking the commandment to love God, when we steal, we break the commandment to love one another. Do you see where I'm coming from? We don't need a list of 'Thou shalt and thou shalt not' because they are all encompassed in those two commandments.

I can see that you are being vigilant so that you can live in Celestial kingdom instead of the lower kingdomâ??s.

If you do not follow the Word of Wisdom when you are a member of the Church you can't get a Temple Recommend to enter the Temple and perform the sealing ordinance for yourself. As we do vicarious work for those who have died, the sealing ordinance will be done by a proxy if a person has not been able to perform those ordinances for themselves while they are alive, for what ever reason. All couples will be sealed together and children will be sealed to their parents, regardless of worthiness, they just will not be able to have the full benefits of the sealing ordinance unless they have proved worthy enough to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. For someone who supposedly has read the Gospel Principles manual you show a very stark knowledge of LDS teachings

.

Thanks that helps me better understand LDS teachings.

Yes, and that the same principle existed at the time of Christ, and afterwards, as those scripture references proved. Marriage is a commandment and has been since the time of Adam.

You have not shown any verse that reveals marriage is a commandment for all. Genesis 2:23+24, Matthew 19:5, and Ephesians 5:31 do not reveal marriage is a commandment. They are verses simply apply to those called to those called to marry.

• Gen.2
  
• [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
  
• [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
  
• -
  
• Matt.19
  
• [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
  
• -
  
• Eph.5
  
• [31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
  

We are all commanded to strive for a state of marriage, Jesus and the apostle Paul would agree with me.

Neither Jesus nor the apostle Paul commanded marriage like the Mormon Church does. Jesus said â??He that is able to receive it, let him receive it â?. The apostle Paul says â??But every man hath his proper gift of God â?¦ to the unmarried â?¦ it is good to abide even as Iâ?. See verses below:

• Matt.19 ([10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. [11] But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)
  
• -
  
• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. )
  

This point is not the reason for this thread, the reason for this thread is about the misrepresentation of 2 Nephi 25:23. You state that the scripture clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8+9 reveals, however 2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandments. If 2 Nephi 25:23-25 contradicts Eph 2:8+9 show that Eph 2:8+9 states that you don't have to follow the commandments if you are saved by grace. If Eph 2:8+9 does not show that you do not have to follow the commandments if we are saved by grace you have NO argument over misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23, you have misrepresented it, case closed.

You say â??2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandmentsâ?. Eph 2:8-9 does not mention commandments, it says â??not of yourselves â?¦ not of works, lest any man should boastâ?. 2Tim 1:9 reveals the same thing at Eph 2:8-9. Titus 3:4-8 does not command good works but says â??be careful to maintain good worksâ?. See scriptures below:

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, .)
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men,)
  

[cksalmon]

I have no doubt that you are right, CKS.

(It doesn't happen often.)

Hi Consig--

Hope you and yours had a Merry Christmas!

---

Six--

You wrote:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

Here's what Spencer Kimball wrote (in a chapter entitled, fittingly, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness," found in his Miracle of Forgiveness [starting on page 201 in the 23rd printing of 1994]):

We have discussed elsewhere that other class of people who are basically unrepentant because they are not "doing the commandments." They are Church members who are steeped in lethargy. They neither drink nor commit the sexual sins. They do not gamble nor rob nor kill. They are good citizens and splendid neighbors, but spiritually speaking they seem to be in a long, deep sleep. They are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their exaltation. To such people as this, the words of Lehi might well apply:

O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Ne. 1:13.)

...

This [that is, 2 Nephi 25:23 and 3 Nephi 27:19-20--cks] makes clear the two facets, neither of which alone would bring the individual salvation the grace of Christ, particularly as represented by his atoning sacrifice, and individual effort. However good a person's works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else's sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.

...

One could multiply references almost indefinitely but enough has been said to establish the point that the repentant life, the life which constantly reaches for perfection, must rely on works as well as on faith. The gospel is a program of action--of doing things. Man's immortality and eternal life are God's goals. (Moses 1:39.) Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.

It certainly seems as though Kimball believed strongly that the grace of Christ expressed in the atonement was inadequate and reciprocally dependent upon the Saint's works. To anticipate one possible response, Kimball quite clearly distinguishes between "mere salvation or redemption from the grave" (which accrues to all regardless) and "returning to the presence of God." His comments above are directed at the latter.

Best.

cks

[cjwright]

Johnny,

Are regards what is a commandment, and if marriage is a commandment, we are just going around in circles, so lets just agree to disagree, because it is getting us no where. I have explained the Church's position on why marriage, tithing, etc are commandments, and the scripture references to back that up, if you can't see the connection between them then nothing I can say or show you will change your mind. You said in a earlier post you pay tithing to show your love for God, well, what do you think not paying your tithing shows God, like I said before, do you show your love for God by robbing Him? (That's a rhetorical question, if you didn't know)

You say â??2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandmentsâ?. Eph 2:8-9 does not mention commandments, it says â??not of yourselves â?¦ not of works, lest any man should boastâ?. 2Tim 1:9 reveals the same thing at Eph 2:8-9. Titus 3:4-8 does not command good works but says â??be careful to maintain good worksâ?. See scriptures below:

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, .)
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men,)
  

This proves my point and the point of the thread, 2 Nephi 25:23-25 is specifically talking about being saved by grace but still having to follow the commandments, for the Nephites this is the Law of Moses until the coming of Christ. These verses in 2 Nephi do not mention the word works at all, it only mentions following commandments so it does not contradict those NT verses, or anything else in the Bible, unless you can prove that it says we do not have to follow the commandments because we are saved by grace.

Even if 2 Nephi 25:23 is talking about works, by comparing the Nephites then with NT Christians is very much a misrepresentation as both groups are under different Laws, you are not comparing like for like because the Nephites would have to do certain 'Works' under the Law of Moses which they have been commanded to keep until the coming of Christ. Do you see now how the verses are not contradictory?

[johnny]

cjwright

Are regards what is a commandment, and if marriage is a commandment, we are just going around in circles, so lets just agree to disagree, because it is getting us no where.

The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment. Both Jesus and Paul make it clear that marriage is a not a commandment for all. Jesus says all men can not receive the saying of marriage except those whom it is given and Jesus says those who can be single for the kingdom of heaven's sake let him receive it. The apostle Paul says every man has his proper gift of God and Paul tells the unmarried to abide as him. Paul says those who are unmarried care for the things that belong to the Lord and that pleases the Lord.

I have explained the Church's position on why marriage, tithing, etc are commandments, and the scripture references to back that up, if you can't see the connection between them then nothing I can say or show you will change your mind. You said in a earlier post you pay tithing to show your love for God, well, what do you think not paying your tithing shows God, like I said before, do you show your love for God by robbing Him? (That's a rhetorical question, if you didn't know)

The Mormon commandment of tithing is a man-made commandment. A person does not rob God if they tithe because the love God instead of tithing because they have to since they think it is a commandment of Godâ??s.

This proves my point and the point of the thread, 2 Nephi 25:23-25 is specifically talking about being saved by grace but still having to follow the commandments, for the Nephites this is the Law of Moses until the coming of Christ. These verses in 2 Nephi do not mention the word works at all, it only mentions following commandments so it does not contradict those NT verses, or anything else in the Bible, unless you can prove that it says we do not have to follow the commandments because we are saved by grace.

The scriptures I provided prove my point that we are saved BEFORE doing things that are good and profitable unto men. We are not â??saved AFTER doing all we can doâ? like 2 Nephi 25:23-25 reveals. Those who are saved follow Godâ??s commandments because they love God NOT because they have to obey his commandmentâ??s to live with Him in the celestial kingdom. All who are saved received the free gift of righteousness through faith, all the righteous will live together. God works in those saved so that we can work out their salvation. Those not valiant are made perfect through sanctification of the spirit. A person has fallen from grace if they think that by their works of righteousness they live will their heavenly Father in the celesital kingdom inhis glory.

Even if 2 Nephi 25:23 is talking about works, by comparing the Nephites then with NT Christians is very much a misrepresentation as both groups are under different Laws, you are not comparing like for like because the Nephites would have to do certain 'Works' under the Law of Moses which they have been commanded to keep until the coming of Christ. Do you see now how the verses are not contradictory?

Both Mormon scripture and the third Mormon article of faith are contradictory to the teaching of grace which is found in the NT which reveals we are saved by grace it is â??not of yourselvesâ? (Eph 2:8 ) and â??Not by works of righteousness which we have doneâ? (Titus 3:5).

2Nephi 25:23 is talking about we â??are saved, after all we can doâ?, just like the third Mormon article of faith which states â??We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?.

[Luigi]

The scriptures I provided prove my point ....

Therein lies your problem johnny-scriptures prove nothing.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment. Both Jesus and Paul make it clear that marriage is a not a commandment for all. Jesus says all men can not receive the saying of marriage except those whom it is given and Jesus says those who can be single for the kingdom of heaven's sake let him receive it. The apostle Paul says every man has his proper gift of God and Paul tells the unmarried to abide as him. Paul says those who are unmarried care for the things that belong to the Lord and that pleases the Lord.

By extension then marriage is a sin under your way of thinking as if only the unmarried please the Lord, then the married must not please the Lord. Obviously this is not the case, so you are seeing marriage out of context. I, nor LDS teaching said that marriage is a commandment for all, but that doesn't mean it is not a commandment. The Law of Moses was only for the Israelites, that doesn't mean they weren't commandments.

Your use of 1 Cor 7:6+7, in an earlier post proves you take this point out of context because it is talking about the unmarried and widows not committing sexual sin, not marriage - widows have already followed the commandment to be married, or they wouldn't be widows would they?

The Mormon commandment of tithing is a man-made commandment. A person does not rob God if they tithe because the love God instead of tithing because they have to since they think it is a commandment of Godâ??s.

You are just picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow. Good luck with that.

The scriptures I provided prove my point that we are saved BEFORE doing things that are good and profitable unto men. We are not â??saved AFTER doing all we can doâ? like 2 Nephi 25:23-25 reveals. Those who are saved follow Godâ??s commandments because they love God NOT because they have to obey his commandmentâ??s to live with Him in the celestial kingdom. All who are saved received the free gift of righteousness through faith, all the righteous will live together. God works in those saved so that we can work out their salvation. Those not valiant are made perfect through sanctification of the spirit. A person has fallen from grace if they think that by their works of righteousness they live will their heavenly Father in the celesital kingdom inhis glory.

Both Mormon scripture and the third Mormon article of faith are contradictory to the teaching of grace which is found in the NT which reveals we are saved by grace it is â??not of yourselvesâ? (Eph 2:8 ) and â??Not by works of righteousness which we have doneâ? (Titus 3:5).

2Nephi 25:23 is talking about we â??are saved, after all we can doâ?, just like the third Mormon article of faith which states â??We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?.

You contradicted your self a number of times here, and contradicted scripture. How can righteousness be a free gift if we still have to follow the commandments to show our righteousness? Righteousness is NOT a free gift through faith, righteousness hinges on us following the commandments. And as I said, show me the scripture references that show as we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments.

How can we show we love God if we don't follow the commandments? As Christ said 'if you love me, keep my commandments'.

You say that 2 Nephi 25:23-25 and the third Article of Faith contradict your point, however for that to be true it must also be true that was are still saved if we do not follow the commandments. So I will ask you again, where does it show in scripture that if we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments - the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel? Also your interpretation of 'saved', do you mean saved from physical death or spiritual death, because there is a difference.

2 Nephi 25:23-25 is only talking about being saved by grace and still having to follow the commandments, nothing else, or you are misrepresenting it - cherry picking one word to try and prove your point regardless of what is said as a whole. The Nephites were under the Law of Moses, the NT Christians were not, as you can't see the distinction between teh two you can't see where your representation of them is wrong.

All you are doing is misrepresenting certain LDS teachings regardless of how they are explained and shown to you that they are true. You hide your eyes from certain facts, and can't produce anything that, when put in the proper context, contradicts any of LDS teachings. LDS teachings only contradict you interpretation.

I'm going to follow Grothar's advice because he's right, it's impossible to get through to you as you have no understanding of LDS teachings, and show your ignorance of them by your answers. I thought it was worth helping you understand, obviously I was wrong.

[busybee]

Seems that it's is YOUR interpretation of said scripture and aricle of Faith that are contradictory. No LDS believe that they can do it alone. We know we need the Atonement. You have been labouring this point for days now Johnny just going round and round in circles, just stop already. We know what we believe and you telling us different is not going to work. You are not looking to understand us at all. You're looking to be right at all costs. If you wanted to understand, you give more thought to the answers that have been given to you rather than throwing out the same quotes over and over again to try and prove to us that we are wrong and you are right.

Edited for clarity.

[johnny]

cjwright

By extension then marriage is a sin under your way of thinking as if only the unmarried please the Lord, then the married must not please the Lord. Obviously this is not the case, so you are seeing marriage out of context. I, nor LDS teaching said that marriage is a commandment for all, but that doesn't mean it is not a commandment. The Law of Moses was only for the Israelites, that doesn't mean they weren't commandments.

You are the one seeing marriage out of context. If you read scripture those who marry â?¦ please his wife â?¦ please her husband. See below.

• 1Cor.7 ([20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. )
  

Your use of 1 Cor 7:6+7, in an earlier post proves you take this point out of context because it is talking about the unmarried and widows not committing sexual sin, not marriage - widows have already followed the commandment to be married, or they wouldn't be widows would they?

My usage is completely in context. Paul is telling the unmarried to abide as him if they have the proper gift of God.

• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I
  

.

You are just picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow. Good luck with that.

I pick and choose the commandment that is revealed in the New Testament. I say good luck to those who follow man-made commandments.

You contradicted your self a number of times here, and contradicted scripture. How can righteousness be a free gift if we still have to follow the commandments to show our righteousness? Righteousness is NOT a free gift through faith, righteousness hinges on us following the commandments. And as I said, show me the scripture references that show as we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments.

What I have said is completely consistent with scripture. Rom 5 reveals we receive the free of righteousness by faith, see below. Eph 2 reveals being saved is not of ourselves, not of works, see below.

• Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
  

How can we show we love God if we don't follow the commandments? As Christ said 'if you love me, keep my commandments'.

We show our love for God by following his commandment to believe and love one another.

You say that 2 Nephi 25:23-25 and the third Article of Faith contradict your point, however for that to be true it must also be true that was are still saved if we do not follow the commandments. So I will ask you again, where does it show in scripture that if we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments - the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel? Also your interpretation of 'saved', do you mean saved from physical death or spiritual death, because there is a difference.

As a Son we obey Godâ??s commandment to love one another for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him (Titus 3:5; 1John 5:1-5). He saved us according to his mercy, not by works of righteousness which we have done, we are justified by his grace (Titus 3:5-7). By saved I mean the salvation of our souls (1Pet 1:9). Both the just (saved) and the unjust (damned) will be physically resurrected (Acts 24:15).

[cksalmon]

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works [NOTE: I wouldn't argue that LDS leaders have taught that works "create" grace, whatever that might mean, only that it has been clearly taught in connection with this verse that works precede, are necessary to, and in part result in final salvation--cks].

Regards,

Six

Hi Six--

Here's another instance that I believe fulfills the requirements of your CFR. Speaking in General Conference in 2001, President Faust stated the following:

All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior's magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt [emphasis in original--cks]

...

We cannot be saved by grace alone, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

...

The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior's grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. Christ's Resurrection overcame death and gave us the assurance of life after death. Said He: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. The Resurrection is unconditional and applies to all who have ever lived and ever will live. It is a free gift. President John Taylor described this well when he said: "The tombs will be opened and the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and they shall come forth, they who have done good to the resurrection of the just, and they who have done evil to the resurrection of the unjust.

(President James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign-Conference Report (November 2001): 18)

A straightforward reading of Faust here indicates that our works are a necessary precondition that causally "activates" the grace of Christ.

You wrote:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone.

Again, Faust stated:

We cannot be saved by grace alone, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

You wrote:

They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Kimball wrote:

And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.

You wrote:

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary. I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I certainly try not to be the former, and I'm not the latter.

Best.

cks

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

"...[C]ritics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone.

Spencer W. Kimball stated:

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation. One passage in the Book of Mormon, written perhaps with the same intent as Paul's statement above-to stress and induce appreciation for the gracious gift of salvation offered on condition of obedience-is particularly enlightening: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23; italics added.)

(Edward L. Kimball, ed., The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 70)

I don't know how else to read this statement other than as an affirmation that belief in the saving power of grace alone is Satanic in origin, according to Kimball.

Best.

cks