Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

Speaking in General Conference in October 1970, President Harold B. Lee opened his address by stating, "This morning in my remarks I desire to direct your attention to some principles of vital importance to every human soul. . . ."

In a section of that talk entitled "Salvation Through Obedience," Lee taught:

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.

President Harold B. Lee, Conference Report (October 1970), General Priesthood Meeting: 116

Rather than "our own works [being] required to make up the difference," though (as you suggested), it appears to me that, for those I've been quoting, Christ's (atoning) work is what "make up the difference." Ultimately, I think this might be a distinction without a difference, but, I point it out merely for clarity's sake.

Best

cks

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

Speaking in General Conference, President Marion G. Romney, stated (in 1979):

It will require maximum effort for us to bring ourselves within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved. There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anyone go through those gates who wants to go through on the efforts of another.

President Romney apparently believed that the efficacy of the salvation bought by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ was in part dependent upon our performing works personally up until the point that we finally, at some point, come "within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved." Apparently, for Romney, the atoning blood of Jesus Christ was dependent upon bringing ourselves within its reach through "maximum (personal) effort."

Romney apparently didn't believe that our works are required to make up the meritorious deficit of Christ's atonment; rather, our personal works, our "maximum effort," is a causal precondition of having the meritorious deficit made up by Christ's atonement. See my clarification above.

In any case, it seems obvious to me that Romney taught that "our own works are required to make up the difference," whether or not one front- or back-loads that requirement.

And, of course, he does draw his scriptural support for this teaching from the passage in question:

The truth was spoken by Nephi when he said, "We are saved [by grace], after all we can do" (2 Ne. 25:23).

See President Marion G. Romney, Ensign--Conference Report (May 1979): 94.

Best.

cks

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference [again, see my clarifying comment on this above--cks].

Elder Gene Cook, speaking of "understanding grace" in General Conference in 1993, stated:

Doing all in your own power is the fourth principle. Truly did Paul teach, "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9; emphasis in original).

Yes, works alone cannot bring that divine gift, but they are a key condition upon which the gift [i.e., grace--cks] is received. "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

(Elder Gene R. Cook, "Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord," Ensign--Conference Report [May 1993]: 79)

In his talk, Cook clearly relates "grace" (or, "enabling assistance") to salvation. He also clearly states in the above that God's grace is conditional upon our works, that is, "doing all in [our] own power" (apparently to merit the grace that is causally dependent upon our personal works).

Best.

cks

[mpschmitt]

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

This is from my response to the James White topic, but I think it is relevant here. I've found the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be entirely consistent on the topics of Grace and works. Here's a short list of scriptures that when compared with one another demonstrate that pretty well:

Matthew 7:21 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/7/21#21

Matthew 25 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/25

Romans Chapter 5 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rom/5/2,15,17,20-21#2

Romans 6:14-23 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rom/6/14-23#14

Moroni 10:32-33 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/32-33#32

Ether 12:27 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/12/26-27,36,41#26

2 Nephi 10:24-25 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/10/24-25#24

2 Nephi 25:23 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/25/23#23

James Chapter 2 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/2/18,20,26#18

[johnny]

mpschmitt

I've found the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be entirely consistent on the topics of Grace and works.

What I have found is that the teachings of the Mormon Church and the Book of Mormon are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals on the topics of the Grace and works.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

• The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  
• -
  
• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  
• -
  
• Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Saviorâ??s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone , â??for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.â? ... The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Saviorâ??s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, â??The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,â?)
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  
• -
  
• GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adamâ??s fall and also because of manâ??s weaknesses."
  

Here's a short list of scriptures that when compared with one another demonstrate that pretty well:

Below are Bible scriptures that you listed ... they demonstrate that the teachings of the Mormon Church teachings and Mormon scripture are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals.

• Matt.7 ([21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.)
  
• -
  
• Matt.25 ([25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.)
  
• -
  
• Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)
  
• -
  
• Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)
  

[Tanyan]

mpschmitt

What I have found is that the teachings of the Mormon Church and the Book of Mormon are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals on the topics of the Grace and works.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

• The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  
• -
  
• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
  
• -
  
• Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior's magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone , "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." ... The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior's grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,")
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for."
  
• -
  
• GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam's fall and also because of man's weaknesses."
  

Below are Bible scriptures that you listed ... they demonstrate that the teachings of the Mormon Church teachings and Mormon scripture are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals.

• Matt.7 ([21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.)
  
• -
  
• Matt.25 ([25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.)
  
• -
  
• Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)
  
• -
  
• Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)
  

Have you not quoted these same quoted posts in the past and have we not responded adinfinentum ?, Groundhog day.Saved by Charis through True Pistis.

In His Debt/Grace Tanayn LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[mpschmitt]

Hi Johnny,

First of all let me state plainly what I believe the doctrine of the Bible and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both affirm:

1. We are saved by grace alone. Without grace we could never save ourselves

2. Receiving grace in our lives requires obedience to the laws, doctrines, and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation apart from this obedience.

3. Remaining in grace requires diligence on our part, faitfullness, hope, charity etc. This life is a test, a race if you will, and we should run it with our best effort. We must be vigilant to not slide back into sin and quick to repent when we fall.

4. The transformed individual in Christ receives divine help (a.k.a grace) which enables him or her to live lives that are beyond what they could accomplish themselves, so all the glory ultimately goes to God

5. Nevertheless we ought to make much effort of our own free will of a cheerful and giving heart, for the lord loves a cheerful giver.

Now let's walk through a few of your assertions...

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

[*]The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)

[*]-

So, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do" seems an un-Biblical concept to you?

How about if I said, "Despite our best efforts, which are still important and necessary, it is by grace that you are saved". Would that be offensive to you? Or, "Grace in our lives is activated when we exercise Faith in Jesus Christ. Our hearts desire to do good works and we act on that desire. God makes more of our efforts than we can make of ourselves, and magnifies our faithfulness. This divine help is called grace, and it is also by this mechanism that we are ultimately saved in the kingdom of God." This is the sense in which this scripture is to be understood when taken in the context of the Book of Mormon as a whole.

I think we've been through this before, but let's go over it again...

James 2:17-26 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/2/18,20,26#18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had soffered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

See also the entirety of Matthew 25. What is the message there in your opinion? http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/25

It seems to me that the "all we can do" part is pretty important in the Bible. It is the evidence of a changed heart and the manifestation that Christ has truly claimed the individual when we do something about our faith...

Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

[*]Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

It most certainly does...

Since we've already established that there is no salvation in Latter-day Saint doctrine without grace, I don't think we need to repeat it, but just so we're certain:

There is nosalvation without grace (in the Bible or LDS teaching)

There is also no salvation (in the Bible or LDS teaching) without obedience and faith

Many of the commandments, when we obey them, require good works

Ergo, good works are the evidence of our obedience.

But God is merciful and judges as well based on desire, capacity and opportunity.

And he provides a way for us to repent when we fall short (which happens constantly) in the person of Jesus Christ who is the way, the life, and the truth.

You may disagree with this principle, but that disagreement won't be helpful to you when you kneel at the feet of your Savior...

Here are a few examples...

Hebrews 5:8-9

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal salvation comes to them that obey him.

1 Peter 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Their souls were purified through obeying the truth.

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Being a member of the house of God is equated here with obedience to the gospel.

Romans 6:16-23

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Obeying the doctrine was what made them free from sin (because grace could then claim them of course). In other words obedience opened the door to grace.

Acts 5:31-32

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The Holy Spirit comes to those who obey. Man cannot be saved without receiving the Holy Ghost according to John 3:5:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Therefore man cannot be saved without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, just as Article 3 teaches. It is essential to remember however, that one of the laws of the Gospel is that man is saved by Grace. It's a big ball of interdependent things. The more obedient we are, the more grace has claim on us, the more magnified our lives become in his service, the more our good works increase in number and effectiveness in participating with God in bringing to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man, by introducing them to the One (Jesus Christ) who is mighty to save.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

[*]Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone , “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” ... The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,”)

I think the scriptures I've shared and will share demonstrate that there's nothing wrong with this statement, but let me know if you disagree.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

[*]Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.”

This is almost verbatim from James...

James chapter 2 again:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had soffered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

[*]GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam’s fall and also because of man’s weaknesses."

I think the scriptures I have shared already sufficiently demonstrate this is a true principle, but let me sum up to be sure.

1. Faith and repentance precede baptism

2. No one can be saved without being born of water (baptism) and the spirit (the Holy Ghost)

3. No one can receive the Spirit without obeying the Gospel

4. No one can obey the Gospel without exercising faith, repenting, and giving their best effort in how they exercise their free will to conduct their lives.

5. No one can do good outside of the will of God, so all glory ultimately goes to Him, but God commands us to participate with him in the salvation of his precious family, which requires that we exercise our free will, roll up our sleeves and hit the pavement.

I find this an entirely Biblical view of things, and I regard it as a highly advisable model after which one ought to pattern one's life if one expects to hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" at the end of their lives (see Matthew 25). It seems to me that if someone refuses to follow these teachings as laid out in the scriptures, one does so at the peril of their own souls. So my prayer for you Johnny, is that these teachings would sink deep into your heart and that your obstacles to understanding them might be lifted. I suspect if you look at your own life you will already see evidence of the works to which grace is beginning to lead you. Works for which you will one day stand and give an accounting before your Lord. None of us can take the credit for these works, for we're really doing his work, but we ought to be always anxiously engaged in a good cause and seeking to do much good, for that is the mark of a true disciple and it is the way the Master lived his life. I feel no desire to apologize for the doctrine of the Church you have referenced here as I regard it to be entirely correct, proper and divinely mandated.

Below are Bible scriptures that you listed ... they demonstrate that the teachings of the Mormon Church teachings and Mormon scripture are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals.

[*]Matt.7 ([21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.)

[*]-

[*]Matt.25 ([25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.)

[*]-

[*]Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)

[*]-

[*]Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)

Johnny, I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any way these scriptures contradict anything in LDS doctrine. Can you be more specific please? I think they contradict what other people sometimes say about LDS doctrine, perhaps, but there is nothing in these verses that goes against anything I believe or have been taught in our scriptures.

[johnny]

mpschmitt

First of all let me state plainly what I believe the doctrine of the Bible and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both affirm:

1. We are saved by grace alone. Without grace we could never save ourselves

2. Receiving grace in our lives requires obedience to the laws, doctrines, and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation apart from this obedience.

3. Remaining in grace requires diligence on our part, faitfullness, hope, charity etc. This life is a test, a race if you will, and we should run it with our best effort. We must be vigilant to not slide back into sin and quick to repent when we fall.

1. You say "We are saved by grace alone" .... You seem to differ with the Ensign article, for it says "We cannot be saved by grace alone ..."

2. You say "Receiving grace ... requires obedience ". Grace is a free gift. No one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification. We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life.

3. You say "Remaining in grace requires diligence on our part ...". Remaining in grace requires the Holy Spirit. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity we can grow in the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of the salvation of our souls. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes.

So, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do" seems an un-Biblical concept to you?

How about if I said, "Despite our best efforts, which are still important and necessary, it is by grace that you are saved". Would that be offensive to you?

You say "best efforts ... necessary" ... what you have said is contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works."

I think we've been through this before, but let's go over it again... James 2:17-26

Believers are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed. We show are faith by our works of mercy. By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only. Faith without the spirit is dead. James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness.

See also the entirety of Matthew 25. What is the message there in your opinion?

The good and faithful servant is rewarded and the wicked and slothful servant is punished.

It seems to me that the "all we can do" part is pretty important in the Bible. It is the evidence of a changed heart and the manifestation that Christ has truly claimed the individual when we do something about our faith...

It seems to me that the "all we can do" part is NOT part of being saved.

Luke 6:46-49

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil.

Since we've already established that there is no salvation in Latter-day Saint doctrine without grace, I don't think we need to repeat it, but just so we're certain:

What we have established is that is is LDS doctrine is that "We cannot be saved by grace alone , for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.".

There is also no salvation (in the Bible or LDS teaching) without obedience and faith

Many of the commandments, when we obey them, require good works

Ergo, good works are the evidence of our obedience.

You says "no salvation ... without obedience" and the Bible says "salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:".

<you> Hebrews 5:8-9 ... Eternal salvation comes to them that obey him.

<me > Salvation comes to those who obey God's commandment to believe and love one another.

<you> 1 Peter 1:22 ... Their souls were purified through obeying the truth.

<me > We can purify our souls by obeying the truth to love through the Spirit

<you> 1 Peter 4:17 ... Being a member of the house of God is equated here with obedience to the gospel.

<me > The gospel of God is to believe.

<you> Romans 6:16-23 ... In other words obedience opened the door to grace.

<me > In other words grace opened the door to obedience.

<you> Acts 5:31-32 ... The Holy Spirit comes to those who obey. Man cannot be saved without receiving the Holy Ghost according to John 3:5:

<me > We receive the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith.

Therefore man cannot be saved without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, just as Article 3 teaches.

Ordinances are not necessary for those who have not heard the Gospel.

I think the scriptures I've shared and will share demonstrate that there's nothing wrong with this statement, but let me know if you disagree.

You have not provided any Bible scriptures that supports the Mormon statement "We cannot be saved by grace alone , for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

The Mormon statement is wrong because it is contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

This is almost verbatim from James...

James does not reveal the Mormon teaching "Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for". James reveals that is not faith only, faith involves doing works of mercy.

I think the scriptures I have shared already sufficiently demonstrate this is a true principle, but let me sum up to be sure.

The Mormon principle "saved, after all we can do" is not a true principal because it is contrary to the truth revealed by the Bible which is that God "saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace".

2. No one can be saved without being born of water (baptism) and the spirit (the Holy Ghost)

The ordinance of water baptism is not necessary for those who have heard the gospel. God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

I find this an entirely Biblical view of things, and I regard it as a highly advisable model after which one ought to pattern one's life if one expects to hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" at the end of their lives (see Matthew 25).

Your view is very different than the Biblical view, the Biblical view is

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.)
  

Johnny, I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any way these scriptures contradict anything in LDS doctrine. Can you be more specific please?

Romans 5 reveals that grace is a free gift ... your belief is contrary to what the Bible reveals, earlier you stated "Receiving grace ... requires obedience."

[cksalmon]

Hi mpshmitt--

You wrote:

Hi Johnny,

First of all let me state plainly what I believe the doctrine of the Bible and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both affirm:

1. We are saved by grace alone. Without grace we could never save ourselves

President Faust stated in GC:

We cannot be saved by grace alone, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

You wrote:

1. We are saved by grace alone.

Spencer W. Kimball (holding your belief to Satanic in origin) taught:

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God.

Moreover, I would note that your two statements are not logical corollaries: that one cannot be saved without grace does not entail that one is saved by grace alone. Bsix started this thread as a CFR for the claim that LDS have denied the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. That CFR, I believe, has been amply answered.

2. Receiving grace in our lives requires obedience to the laws, doctrines, and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation apart from this obedience.

Here, you contradict your earlier assertion that we are saved by grace alone. You stated that "receiving grace...requires obedience..." and that "there is no salvation apart from this obedience."

Note that I'm not denying that true salvation entails works. In line with Faust and Kimball (as well as the others I've quoted), I'm affirming that certain LDS leaders have very specifically denied that we are saved by grace alone.

So, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do" seems an un-Biblical concept to you?

How about if I said, "Despite our best efforts, which are still important and necessary, it is by grace that you are saved". Would that be offensive to you?

But, of course, the concessive reading is not the way in which those LDS leaders I've quoted understand the verse in question. You read the verse as Millet does but Millet reads the verse quite differently than have others before him.

I'm not sure how one can affirm that one is saved by grace alone, and then add conditions to the individual reception of that grace. If salvation by grace is conditional to any degree upon our works, then salvation is not of grace alone. QED.

This was one of the primary theological tenets that led to the Protestant Reformation. And, excluding a few unbibiblical antinomians along the way (as well as modern easy-believism (OSAS) "evangelicalism," the Protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone has never been a license for licentiousness.

But, again, you are saying something that, at least, Faust and Kimball have explicitly denied. See my other references above.

Best.

cks

[mpschmitt]

mpschmitt

1. You say "We are saved by grace alone" .... You seem to differ with the Ensign article, for it says "We cannot be saved by grace alone ..."

2. You say "Receiving grace ... requires obedience ". Grace is a free gift. No one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification. We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life.

3. You say "Remaining in grace requires diligence on our part ...". Remaining in grace requires the Holy Spirit. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity we can grow in the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of the salvation of our souls. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes.

You say "best efforts ... necessary" ... what you have said is contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works."

Believers are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed. We show are faith by our works of mercy. By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only. Faith without the spirit is dead. James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness.

The good and faithful servant is rewarded and the wicked and slothful servant is punished.

It seems to me that the "all we can do" part is NOT part of being saved.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil.

What we have established is that is is LDS doctrine is that "We cannot be saved by grace alone , for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.".

You says "no salvation ... without obedience" and the Bible says "salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:".

<you> Hebrews 5:8-9 ... Eternal salvation comes to them that obey him.

<me > Salvation comes to those who obey God's commandment to believe and love one another.

<you> 1 Peter 1:22 ... Their souls were purified through obeying the truth.

<me > We can purify our souls by obeying the truth to love through the Spirit

<you> 1 Peter 4:17 ... Being a member of the house of God is equated here with obedience to the gospel.

<me > The gospel of God is to believe.

<you> Romans 6:16-23 ... In other words obedience opened the door to grace.

<me > In other words grace opened the door to obedience.

<you> Acts 5:31-32 ... The Holy Spirit comes to those who obey. Man cannot be saved without receiving the Holy Ghost according to John 3:5:

<me > We receive the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith.

Ordinances are not necessary for those who have not heard the Gospel.

You have not provided any Bible scriptures that supports the Mormon statement "We cannot be saved by grace alone , for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

The Mormon statement is wrong because it is contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

James does not reveal the Mormon teaching "Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for". James reveals that is not faith only, faith involves doing works of mercy.

The Mormon principle "saved, after all we can do" is not a true principal because it is contrary to the truth revealed by the Bible which is that God "saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace".

The ordinance of water baptism is not necessary for those who have heard the gospel. God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Your view is very different than the Biblical view, the Biblical view is

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.)
  

Romans 5 reveals that grace is a free gift ... your belief is contrary to what the Bible reveals, earlier you stated "Receiving grace ... requires obedience."

We are closer to finding ourselves on the same page Johnny (believe it or not).

Grace is free, but it only comes to those who hearken to his call (and hearkening to his call is obedience), and it is only through the grace of God we are saved. A disobedient person who does not harken to the call of the Master can never find grace. Even Paul, who went about seeking to destroy the Church, had to decide to obey the Lord and repent. He hearkened to what the Lord told Him and he received the Grace and mercy of God. That is what enabled Paul to be Paul. Nothing of himself, but the Lord working through him. But he still had to accept the call and exercise his free will to be obedient to the word. In a way it's a chicken and egg kind of proposition. Once the Holy Spirit starts working on us and we decide to obey Him, we begin to manifest grace (or divine help) in our lives, sanctification which comes from obedience leads to more grace, which leads to more sanctification, which leads to fruits of the spirit, which leads to more growth, knowledge, wisdom, faith, grace and sanctification, which leads us to good works, which brings more peace, love, compassion understanding, etc. etc... This continues onward and upward in our lives as we remain faithful until the perfect day. Grace upon grace, truth upon truth, light upon light, God tears down our shack and builds a mansion in it's place in the image and likeness of His Son. So what came first? Grace, Obedience, Faith, etc? Does it matter? God came before it all and he is more than capable of finishing the work he started in us. And He gets all the Glory.

Phillipians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The Book of Mormon is pretty plain about the fact that it is only through grace we are saved and that it is a free gift. I think you are making too much of the phrase "after all we can do" in the other scripture you referenced.

2 Nephi 10: 24

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the bwill of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 2: 4

And thou hast abeheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

I disagree that it is contrary to the Bible to say that obedience and faithfulness are necessary to our reception of and continuing in grace...

The scriptures I've already shared indicate that pretty clearly I think, but here are a few more that are very plain on this matter:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

1 Pet. 1: 2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[mpschmitt]

I'm not sure how one can affirm that one is saved by grace alone, and then add conditions to the individual reception of that grace. If salvation by grace is conditional to any degree upon our works, then salvation is not of grace alone. QED.

But, again, you are saying something that, at least, Faust and Kimball have explicitly denied. See my other references above.

Okay, Let me restate my position so that it is clearer on this point than my response to Johnny...

First of all I think I have erred in my statement using the word "alone" as I have. I agree with both statements you reference from President Faust and President Kimball. When I used the word "alone" above, it would be better said if I used the word "only". The Book of Mormon is clear on this (I've already shared this with Johnny but I want to emphasize other aspects about it with you so you don't think me a total numskull )

2 Nephi 10:24

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

It bothers me tremendously that critics of the Church often quote 2 Nephi 25 without quoting the above mentioned scripture. If one is going to analyze something, one must do it in light of the context from whence that something came, otherwise one runs the great risk of missing the big picture.

The part I want to emphasize about this scripture is this:

1. It states categorically that it is only in and through the grace of God that we are saved

2. That grace only comes after we reconcile ourselves to the will of God (repent and obey)

When I say we are saved by grace alone, I mean that we are only saved by grace. Nothing we do of ourselves could save ourselves. Without grace, we would be lost and of all men most miserable. Therefore, as this scripture declares, it is ultimately only grace that saves us. But we can't be under that grace until we accept it and decide of our own free will to reconcile ourselves to the will of God. God won't drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven. Free will was so important to Him that he allowed His only Begotten Son to die for all mankind so that they could exercise their free will and receive forgiveness.

I find nothing in the Bible to contradict this belief. In fact, the scriptures I shared with Johnny above, demonstrate that this same "contradiction" exists in the Bible. I don't see it as a contradiction though, I see it as two sides of the same wholly interdependent interconnected coin. Grace was never meant to stand apart and independent from the other attributes of belief that pertain to our salvation, and one has to ignore a great number of verses from the Bible to make the case that it can. I find my belief entirely in keeping with the statements you reference from President Faust and President Kimball. What they are rejecting is the notion that someone can just accept Jesus and rest on their laurels and do nothing about their faith and trust that grace will save them. This is a false belief and will be met with disappointment at the last day. It is also false to believe that we can do a bunch of good works outside of the will of God and expect to be able to enter heaven after rattling them off to the angel at the pearly gates. We know that will be met with "Depart from me, I never knew you". It is only through reconciling ourselves to the will of God that we gain access to his mercy and grace. That is what is meant by "all we can do".

I agree it is unfortunate that I used the phrase "saved by grace alone" since President Faust and Kimball use it to describe and condemn a different belief than the one I hold. Please forgive me that gaff. Hopefully this helps you to understand where I'm coming from better.

[LeSellers]

LDS do not believe mankind can be saved by his own works. You just keep throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you assume a Christian's good works combined with his faith under grace is the same as someone trying to obligate God to save him for his own "righteous works" alone.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

I was reading this morning in Alma. This struck me:

11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stainâ?? 12 Now, my best beloved brethren, since God hath taken away our stains, and our swords have become bright, then let us stain our swords no more with the blood of our brethren.

It seems this passage clarifies the meaning of "after all we can do".

We can and must repent. It's all we can do.

Moreover, as other here have noted, "after" in this case can mean a gamut of things, including "even after": it is by grace that we are saved, even after all we can do.

Lehi

[mpschmitt]

...Let me offer one more parable to further clarify the LDS position (and my other two posts) on this issue of grace and works (y'all who are LDS feel free to modify or correct if you think I'm off...)

Lets suppose you are drowning in the midst of the deep dark ocean. Waves are crashing all around you and you are about to give up all hope.

Then, in the distance you spot a search and rescue boat.

The Captain of the boat sees you and hails you to see if you are responsive. You wave.

He approaches you and calls out to you to swim closer. You do so.

He throws you a life preserver. You grab on to it.

He pulls you toward the boat and tells you to hold on tight as he and his crew haul you aboard. You do so.

Safely on the ship, he brings you into the cabin where it is warm and dry, gives you a change of clothes and drives you to shore.

When you get to the shore a news crew approaches you and asks you what happened.

You tell them the story and conclude with the statement "It was only because of that Captain and his ship that I was saved."

The news crew is skeptical and says things like "Well you had to wave to the ship," "You had to swim toward the boat," "You had to grab the life preserver," "You had to hold on tight as they pulled you aboard," "You had to relinquish your wet clothes and put on dry ones", "Don't you get a little credit for your rescue?"

To which you reply, "No, it was only because that Captain and his ship that I was saved. If they hadn't been there, it wouldn't have mattered if I waved, or swam or grabbed a life preserver. I would have drowned eventually just the same. But I still needed to hear the voice of the Captain and obey his directions to find my way to the help he was offering."

Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all of our best efforts would never be enough. So it is fair to say that we believe that it is only through the grace of God that we are saved (as the Book of Mormon teaches), after we accept the help and reconcile ourselves to God by approaching and eventually climbing aboard the ship. And these two statements are not conflicting.

[johnny]

mpschmitt

We are closer to finding ourselves on the same page Johnny (believe it or not).

Grace is free, but it only comes to those who hearken to his call (and hearkening to his call is obedience), and it is only through the grace of God we are saved.

I would disagree that we are on the â??same pageâ?, I believe we are on different pages. You say â??only comes to those who hearken to his call (and hearkening to his call is obedience)â?, the Bible says â??through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of worksâ?.

Once the Holy Spirit starts working on us and we decide to obey Him, we begin to manifest grace (or divine help) in our lives, sanctification which comes from obedience leads to more grace, which leads to more sanctification â?¦

You say â??sanctification which comes from obedienceâ?, the Bible says â??sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truthâ?.

So what came first? Grace, Obedience, Faith, etc? Does it matter?

I think it matters because the Bible reveals grace came first.

The Book of Mormon is pretty plain about the fact that it is only through grace we are saved and that it is a free gift. I think you are making too much of the phrase "after all we can do" in the other scripture you referenced.

The third Mormon article of faith also is pretty plain that for Mormonâ??s it is grace and obedience, see below:

• A/F # 3 "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel"
  

2 Nephi 2: 4

And thou hast abeheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

The Book of Mormon says â??salvation is freeâ? â?¦ the Mormon Ensign also says it is automatically and does not depend on what kind of lives we live, see below

• Ensign, Apr 1981 â??This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into Godâ??s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles.â? Gerald N. Lund, â??Salvation: By Grace or by Works?,â?
  

I disagree that it is contrary to the Bible to say that obedience and faithfulness are necessary to our reception of and continuing in grace...

I believe the third Mormon article of faith is contrary to the Bible. Mormonism says â??all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ? and the Bible says â??by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselvesâ?.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

The principal theme of Romans is salvation through faith. Faith is the gift of the holy Spirit and denotes acceptance of salvation as God's righteousness. The one who is righteous by faith will live.

1 Pet. 1: 2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands.

[johnny]

mpschmitt

...Let me offer one more parable to further clarify the LDS position (and my other two posts) on this issue of grace and works (y'all who are LDS feel free to modify or correct if you think I'm off...)

Let me clarify the Bible position, Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy , see below

• Matt.18 ([32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: [33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? [34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. [35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.)
  

Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all of our best efforts would never be enough. So it is fair to say that we believe that it is only through the grace of God that we are saved (as the Book of Mormon teaches), after we accept the help and reconcile ourselves to God by approaching and eventually climbing aboard the ship. And these two statements are not conflicting.

Your statements and what the Mormon Church teaches are conflicting to what the Bible reveals. Mormonism reveals â??We cannot be saved by grace alone â?¦. after all we can doâ? and the Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselvesâ?.

• Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Saviorâ??s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, â??for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.â? ... The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Saviorâ??s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, â??The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,â?)
  
• -
  
• Ensign, Apr 1981 â??Now let us turn to the second aspect of Christâ??s atonement, the â??conditionalâ? atonement. ... The Doctrine and Covenants clearly points out, however, that we could enter back into Godâ??s presence in this life if we would but purify ourselves from sinâ??or, in the terms we are using, overcome the effects of our own personal fall. (See D&C 67:10, D&C 88:68; D&C 93:1; see also Ether 3:13.) This purification from sin strongly involves the role of worksâ??works of repentance and obedience are indispensable to the achievement of such a high and holy privilege. Even so, is it really by our works that we are saved from spiritual death? ... The Savior could effect the deliverance for two important reasons. ... But the sacrifice which pays the debt and frees us from the results of our own spiritual death, though it comes to us through the grace and goodness of God, is not unconditional. What, then, are the conditions? Very simply stated they are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then repentance, followed by baptism.â? Gerald N. Lund, â??Salvation: By Grace or by Works?,â?
  

[Tanyan]

Once again we are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone through Faith [ Pistis] alone. That Grace power is what Saves one but that must be accessed/activated/made alive by ones mental/physical efforts by way of The 2 great commandments if they they are able. Some have mental/physical restrictions that they cannot do the works of rightiousness for the LORD and there fellow man and GOD/Jesus take that into account. Abide on that Vine.

Work we must but The Lunch Is Free.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Luigi]

So did you start loving God because he was going to throw you in hell if you didn't love him?

Also are you concerned that you might stop believing/loving God if you didn't pay tithing?

I'd like to see an answer to my questions posed above johnny since for me it would provide some understanding of your beliefs.

[johnny]

Luigi

So did you start loving God because he was going to throw you in hell if you didn't love him?

No â?¦ I did not start loving God because he was going to thrown me in hell if I didnâ??t love him.

Also are you concerned that you might stop believing/loving God if you didn't pay tithing?

I am not concerned that if I donâ??t pay tithing I might stop believing/loving God.

[Luigi]

Luigi

No â?¦ I did not start loving God because he was going to thrown me in hell if I didnâ??t love him.

So even though you are telling us that the Bible states that God is in essence saying "Love and believe in me and you will come to heaven or otherwise I will send you into eternal torment" you found some other motivation for loving God? What was it?

I am not concerned that if I donâ??t pay tithing I might stop believing/loving God.

Then what's the point? If not paying tithing in no way diminishes your love of God and in no way diminishes God's love of you why are you throwing your money away?

[johnny]

Luigi

So even though you are telling us that the Bible states that God is in essence saying "Love and believe in me and you will come to heaven or otherwise I will send you into eternal torment" you found some other motivation for loving God? What was it?

His goodness â?¦

Then what's the point? If not paying tithing in no way diminishes your love of God and in no way diminishes God's love of you why are you throwing your money away?

Because it is good unto men.

[Tanyan]

From a real Catholic JEDI KNIGHT Apologist on Faith/Works - http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/paul.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[mpschmitt]

Let me clarify the Bible position, Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy , see below

Okay. I agree with that...

Your statements and what the Mormon Church teaches are conflicting to what the Bible reveals. Mormonism reveals “We cannot be saved by grace alone …. after all we can do” and the Bible reveals “by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves”.

...And the Bible also says "faith without works is dead, being alone" (James 2). If faith without works is dead and we are saved by grace through faith, doesn't that mean that grace cannot be effectual in our lives without faith, therefore grace cannot be effectual in our lives without the works of obedience and repentance on our part without which faith cannot stand? All of these scriptures need to be considered together in context and not selected individually. Otherwise we miss the big picture...

Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” ... The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,”)
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Ensign, Apr 1981 “Now let us turn to the second aspect of Christ’s atonement, the “conditional” atonement. ... The Doctrine and Covenants clearly points out, however, that we could enter back into God’s presence in this life if we would but purify ourselves from sin—or, in the terms we are using, overcome the effects of our own personal fall. (See D&C 67:10, D&C 88:68; D&C 93:1; see also Ether 3:13.) This purification from sin strongly involves the role of works—works of repentance and obedience are indispensable to the achievement of such a high and holy privilege. Even so, is it really by our works that we are saved from spiritual death? ... The Savior could effect the deliverance for two important reasons. ... But the sacrifice which pays the debt and frees us from the results of our own spiritual death, though it comes to us through the grace and goodness of God, is not unconditional. What, then, are the conditions? Very simply stated they are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then repentance, followed by baptism.” Gerald N. Lund, “Salvation: By Grace or by Works?,”

...And have the scriptures I've shared so far from the Bible not sufficiently demonstrated that there is a very clear relationship between obedience, faith, repentance, works and grace? Whose works are we doing when we are under grace and the guidance of the Holy Ghost? Have I any cause to glory in myself? No. They are God's works. Does he get the glory? Yes. Yet the Bible is clear that we will be judged by our works, and that no man who has not done works according to the will of the Father and repented of their sins will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. So again, if you believe the Bible, we ought not be far from the same page (though you are right we are not yet on the same page)...

I feel, Johnny, that we might not be reading one anothers' posts carefully enough sometimes. We often find ourselves in a game of "Yes it is in the Bible, No it isn't in the Bible" in our exchanges. I'm not sure how effective that is, but perhaps we should try a different approach. Our aim for each other should be to edify and encourage toward truth, not to win a debate.

I agree with every doctrine you post here from our Church resources and find it in complete harmony with everything I've said previously (after that clarification I made about the words "only" and "alone" in my theology of course), and with the Bible (taking into consideration all the things that the Bible has to say on the matter).

[johnny]

mpschmitt

If faith without works is dead and we are saved by grace through faith, doesn't that mean that grace cannot be effectual in our lives without faith, therefore grace cannot be effectual in our lives without the works of obedience and repentance on our part without which faith cannot stand?

Faith is the virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said. Faith consists not only in saying "Lord, Lord," but in disposing the heart to do the will of the Father. Living faith works through charity. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes. It is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

...And have the scriptures I've shared so far from the Bible not sufficiently demonstrated that there is a very clear relationship between obedience, faith, repentance, works and grace?

We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By believing we obey God.

Yet the Bible is clear that we will be judged by our works, and that no man who has not done works according to the will of the Father and repented of their sins will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are assured of their eternal salvation and will live with their heavenly Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I agree with every doctrine you post here from our Church resources and find it in complete harmony with everything I've said previously (after that clarification I made about the words "only" and "alone" in my theology of course), and with the Bible (taking into consideration all the things that the Bible has to say on the matter)

I don't agree with the third Mormon article of faith which states that â??all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ? because it is by grace that we are saved. All those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.

I don't agree with the Mormon teaching that only those who are valiant will live with our Heavenly Father because all who die in God's grace will live our Heavenly Father.

[mpschmitt]

Faith is the virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said. Faith consists not only in saying "Lord, Lord," but in disposing the heart to do the will of the Father. Living faith works through charity. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes. It is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Amen! I am entirely in agreement with everything you say in this quote snippet above, and I don't find anything in LDS teaching that leads me to conclude otherwise. And it was well said to boot. Nicely done.

We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By believing we obey God.All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are assured of their eternal salvation and will live with their heavenly Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.I don't agree with the third Mormon article of faith which states that “all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” because it is by grace that we are saved. All those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.

I mostly agree with this, but would only say that we have a provision for that last kind of person you mention in our Temples whereby those who did not get to receive the ordinances may receive them vicariously through living persons here on earth. But both of our beliefs point to a common attribute of God we both believe: Namely, that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for not knowing something that they had no opportunity to know. Not all Christians share this view unfortunately, though I believe it is an affront to the mercy of God to say that God would damn someone to hell for the simple fact that they were never given the opportunity to hear the Gospel and accept it in faith.

Remember, however, that it was by Christ's obedience that many were saved:

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous ~ Romans 5:12

How this ought to be an example to us of the kind of obedience we ought to render to God.

Paul taught in Romans 1:5 that he received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith. Grace came first to Paul, he was not deserving of it. But that grace would have departed from Paul if he had not heeded the call of the Lord. He would not have been dragged into Heaven against his will. His obedience and willingness to heed the call and repent were essential to his salvation.

I don't agree with the Mormon teaching that only those who are valiant will live with our Heavenly Father because all who die in God's grace will live our Heavenly Father.

Well, as I mention above, "valiant" is relative in Mormon theology to the person's capacity and opportunity as well as the amount of divinely given inspiration and testimony they have received. "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."(Luke 12:48) and "For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation." (D+C 82). So for one person with a lot of challenges and obstacles, it might be valiant for them to just get up every day and make it to the store and back again with a smile on their faces and a testimony of their Savior always ready on their lips for all who will hear. For another much more might be expected. Each person will be judged with the standard of God's perfect Grace, Mercy, and Justice. And each will be judged not only by their works, but by the capacity they had, and the desires of their hearts. The works will be the evidence in their judgment of God's presence in their lives, not a list of good deeds that scores them extra points in Heaven.

[johnny]

mpschmitt

I mostly agree with this, but would only say that we have a provision for that last kind of person you mention in our Temples whereby those who did not get to receive the ordinances may receive them vicariously through living persons here on earth.

Here is where we believe very differently ... for you salvation is conditioned on ordinances, for you a person cannot be saved by grace alone. For me it is by grace that we are saved.

Well, as I mention above, "valiant" is relative in Mormon theology to the person's capacity and opportunity as well as the amount of divinely given inspiration and testimony they have received.

In Mormon theology what is minimum required to live with our heavenly Father? What laws and principles must a person obey to live with our heavenly Father?

Each person will be judged with the standard of God's perfect Grace, Mercy, and Justice. And each will be judged not only by their works, but by the capacity they had, and the desires of their hearts.

What are the minimum works to live with our heavenly father?

I believe will be judged by our love.