Luigi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiI don't see it as "quite complicated" ... thanks for responding.Really? You're able to identify who's been saved and who hasn't?
Bsix Posted January 2, 2009 Author Posted January 2, 2009 I think that Johnny believes that any Catholic or Protestant who believes is saved by Grace-alone. Johnny has said that baptism, confirmation, avoidance of sin, confession, and last rites are not required of believing Christians in order to live with Heavenly Father.Regards,Six
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiReally? You're able to identify who's been saved and who hasn't?The bible tells us ...Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)
Luigi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiThe bible tells us ...Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)Uh yeah. That doesn't answer my question.
coolrok7 Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 And thus your entire line of questions are answered. All I did was answer the question you asked concening keeping the commandments:(Jeff K. @ Jan 2 2009, 11:05 AM) Will a person who acknowledges Christ as the savior get into heaven without keeping the commandments?That is a statement concerning the Bible verse in which "keeping the commandments" is found of which I'm in agreement with in which I have never denied.For example:Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, â??I know Him,â? and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6) Mormonism distorts it as it does the "rest of the scriptures" as Peter said concerning Paul's writins. Where is the line of questions I asked. I've been contrasting Mormonism with Christianity and making a distinction between the two systems of belief.
Jeff K. Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Jeff K.A simple Yes or No would be helpful to the simple question ... if not thanks for trying.Perhaps you can answer the question I have posited in a yes or no answer.Do you believe that acknowledging Christ as your savior but not following the commandments will still get you into heaven johnny?
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiUh yeah. That doesn't answer my question.By grace the unmarried person who does not pay tithing is saved through faith. If that person is saved by the grace of God through faith that person will live with his heavenly Father.It is not of works.
Luigi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiBy grace the unmarried person who does not pay tithing is saved through faith. If that person is saved by the grace of God through faith that person will live with his heavenly Father.It is not of works.Umm. Still haven't answered my question. Can you identify a 'saved' person from a 'non-saved' person?
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Jeff K.Perhaps you can answer the question I have posited in a yes or no answer.Yes, by the grace of God that person will live his heavenly father if they had faithDo you believe that acknowledging Christ as your savior but not following the commandments will still get you into heaven johnny?I believe by grace and faith we are saved, it is not of works.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiUmm. Still haven't answered my question. Can you identify a 'saved' person from a 'non-saved' person?A saved person has faith and grace.
Luigi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiA saved person has faith and grace.So you're able to identify when people have 'faith' and 'grace'?
Obiwan Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 BsixWhat commandments do you have to obey to live with our heavenly Father?The third article of faith is not consistent with the Bible or with Catholic concepts (see below), neither the Bible nor Catholic concepts suggest "after all we can do".Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works , lest any man should boast. )-1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life Why do you avoid the question of ... again I ask you What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal lifeJohnny.... There's one little problem with your trying to strain your misrepresentation onto LDS, as well as misintrep scripture itself, that is the fact that Christ Himself made very clear that KNOW-ONE is actually His unless they are obedient to the Father's Will. Can you please tell us "exactly" how that is too occur if not through "works"?So, while you may wish to ignore the absolute necessity of actually "being as" the Father in relation to Salvation, and try to place LDS in a misrepresentative box that claims we are a "works" based salvation, rather than Grace alone, the fact is is you are wrong on all counts, both as to what we believe AND what scripture as a whole actually states on the subject.Sorry, you lose.
ebeddoulos Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 ebeddoulosExplain how it is "a form of intellectual dishonesty"?Because its use is disceitful, mendacious, misleading and lacking in truth. In short it is a deliberate falsehood used intentionally to mislead. If you are comfortable with that ...If is is summation why is it missing so many of the Mormon commandants?It is not. It has been stated over and over in this thread by me and others. You just choose to ignore it because you are too busy gathering straw.[*]Mark.16 ([16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.)You do amuse me. Yes, you certainly do. As I stated in my previous post judgment must be "read into" that Mark 16:16 because the word κρίνω is not there. At least βαπτισθεις is in the verse.You have made a common mistake in equating judgment with condemnation. As seen in 1 Corinthians 11:32 they are not the same:κρινομενοι δε υπο κυριου παιδευομεθα ινα μη συν τω κοσμω κατακριθωμενAs Paul so eloquently illustrates, we can be judged and not be condemned.Throughout this thread, you have made other mistakes as well, not the least of which are your strawman arguments. You may want to seriously address that.I noticed that you chose not to address my answer to your earlier question.Who is doing the work?You tell me: "εαυτων σωτηριαν κατεργαζεσθε" I think the Greek makes it quite clear, don't you?I must take it that you are forced to agree with LDS position since it is in line with the Greek. You must be terribly embarrassed.I suspect that this will bring you little comfort but you shall remain in my prayers.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiSo you're able to identify when people have 'faith' and 'grace'?God is able to identify ...
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 ObiwanJohnny.... There's one little problem with your trying to strain your misrepresentation onto LDS, as well as misintrep scripture itself, that is the fact that Christ Himself made very clear that KNOW-ONE is actually His unless they are obedient to the Father's Will. Can you please tell us "exactly" how that is too occur if not through "works"?His will is for a person to have faith ...So, while you may wish to ignore the absolute necessity of actually "being as" the Father in relation to Salvation, and try to place LDS in a misrepresentative box that claims we are a "works" based salvation, rather than Grace alone, the fact is is you are wrong on all counts, both as to what we believe AND what scripture as a whole actually states on the subject.It is evident that LDS are "works" based salvation because it appears Mormon's have trouble deciding who will live the heavenly Father because it is "really quite complicated".
busybee Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Jeff K.That does not help answer my question ... I asked can a single person who does not follow the Mormon commandment of tithing be able to live with their heavenly Father in his glory? Nobody that doesn't follow the Biblical commandment will be able to live with Heavenly Father. No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom. If we have robbed God of tithes and offerings, we are robbers (robbers rob, 'Kay Pumpkin? ). In need of repentance. Mormon or not. But again, we are not the ones who will decide who goes where, that is God's job. Each of us will be judged as individuals, not en masse!!
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 ebeddoulosBecause its use is disceitful, mendacious, misleading and lacking in truth. In short it is a deliberate falsehood used intentionally to mislead. If you are comfortable with that ...Please be specific ... clear it is not lacking in truth ... where is the falsehood.You do amuse me. Yes, you certainly do. As I stated in my previous post judgment must be "read into" that Mark 16:16 because the word κρίνω is not there. At least βαπτισθεις is in the verse.You have made a common mistake in equating judgment with condemnation. As seen in 1 Corinthians 11:32 they are not the same:After Final Judgment, do those who are damned live with their heavenly Father?I must take it that you are forced to agree with LDS position since it is in line with the Greek. You must be terribly embarrassed.I am not familiar with Greek ...I suspect that this will bring you little comfort but you shall remain in my prayers.Thanks ..
busybee Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 LuigiBy grace the unmarried person who does not pay tithing is saved through faith. If that person is saved by the grace of God through faith that person will live with his heavenly Father.It is not of works.How much faith does he have if he is knowingly not keeping the commandments?? I love you and have faith but I'm not going to follow you because grace will see me through!!! Is that how it works??
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 busybeeNobody that doesn't follow the Biblical commandment will be able to live with Heavenly Father.Which Biblical commandment are you speaking of ... are you including the Mormon commandments in your statement?No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom. If we have robbed God of tithes and offerings, we are robbers (robbers rob, 'Kay Pumpkin? ). In need of repentance. Mormon or not. But again, we are not the ones who will decide who goes where, that is God's job. Each of us will be judged as individuals, not en masse!!I agree no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom ... glad there is grace and the atonement. I agree each of us will be judged.
shalamabobbi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 By grace the unmarried person who does not pay tithing is saved through faith.If that person is saved by the grace of God through faith that person will live with his heavenly Father.It is not of works.Is living with Heavenly Father the reward or is living as Heavenly Father the reward?If the reward is the privilege of the married state, how does a single person receive the reward?Are Catholic priests eunuchs as required in the verse of Matthew which you like to quote or are they merely celibate?I assume you cannot apply the verse then unless they are castrated..The chapter you like to quote in Corinthians has to do with missionary service which is a temporary calling. It is better to remain single so you can concentrate on your calling and pleasing the Lord instead of your wife. It does not counter other passages that command marriage, i.e. "be fruitful and multiply".Christ says do X to be saved.John Doe says I believe you and I have faith in you.John Doe then reasons he is saved by grace through faith alone w/o doing what Christ said to do, i.e. X.But Christ says, "He didn't do X like I asked him, he must not believe me or have any faith in my sayings.."Therefore Christ says"Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.."Faith and works cannot be separated. One w/o the other is dead. This is biblical. Does the bible contradict itself?If I own a truck and separate the drivetrain from the motor will it get me anywhere? Even if the truck was a free gift from God?
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 busybeeHow much faith does he have if he is knowingly not keeping the commandments?? I love you and have faith but I'm not going to follow you because grace will see me through!!! Is that how it works??Scripture does not reveal how much faith, I am sure God knows. It works by grace and faith.
busybee Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 I actually can't believe I'm back here again. The 'flu meds I took must be stronger that I thought!!!
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 shalamabobbi> Is living with Heavenly Father the reward or is living as Heavenly Father the reward?Both are part of our reward.> If the reward is the privilege of the married state, how does a single person receive the reward?I would not consider a "married state" a reward.> Are Catholic priests eunuchs as required in the verse of Matthew which you like to quote or are they merely celibate?They are celibate> I assume you cannot apply the verse then unless they are castrated..The verses can be applied to them without castration.>The chapter you like to quote in Corinthians has to do with missionary service which is a temporary calling. It is better to remain single so you can concentrate on your calling and pleasing the Lord instead of your wife. Which verse indicates it is a temporary calling?>It does not counter other passages that command marriage, i.e. "be fruitful and multiply"."be fruitful and multiply" applies to those who have been called to marriage>"Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.."I agree ... the will of the Father is faith>Faith and works cannot be separated. One w/o the other is dead. This is biblical. Does the bible contradict itself?Scripture separates them it says "through faith ... not of works">If I own a truck and separate the drivetrain from the motor will it get me anywhere? Even if the truck was a free gift from God?Faith without the spirit is dead
shalamabobbi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 > If the reward is the privilege of the married state, how does a single person receive the reward?I would not consider a "married state" a reward.What does that say about Catholic marriages?(Sorry johnny, irresistible cheap shot..)
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 shalamabobbiWhat does that say about Catholic marriages?(Sorry johnny, irresistible cheap shot..)It says that the Bible does not state marriage is considered a reward.
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