johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallAs I understand you, you seem to be saying: "Give me my salvation, and I will show you my works"(works being a fruit of salvation)I am saying:- believe and thou shall be saved- we work out our salvation by God working in us to do his will- salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth- by the hearing of faith we receive the Spirit - as we live in the Spirit, we walk in the Spirit, we bear the fruit of the Spirit- without the spirit we can do nothing- God who dwells in us does the works- I labor yet not I, the grace of God is with me - I give glory to God because according to his grace I work- my works show my faith, by works was faith made perfect- I have no reason to boast because I am not justified on the basis of my worksWhereas I say: "I will demonstrate my faith through my works so that grace may be extended"(faith without works is dead)Could you explain the role of grace when you demonstrate your faith through your works ... thanks.How does this relate to the following description that the Mormon Church teaches?GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adamâ??s fall and also because of manâ??s weaknesses."If faith is dead without works, how then works be a fruit of salvation? That means that salvation comes through dead faith.Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We work out our salvation by God working in us to do his will.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Trencher7What part does our obedience play in salvation then?Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We work out our salvation by God working in us to do his will. We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By faith when we are called we obey.
Trencher7 Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Trencher7Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We work out our salvation by God working in us to do his will. We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By faith when we are called we obey.You mean we need to obey right? Of course we should obey and have the desire to do so, but it is not a given.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Trencher7You mean we need to obey right? Of course we should obey and have the desire to do so, but it is not a given.Need to obey what ... please be specific?Please explain why we need to obey what you specify ... thanks.
Trencher7 Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Trencher7Need to obey what ... please be specific?Please explain why we need to obey what you specify ... thanks.Obey meaning doing what the Lord asks of us and obeying his commandments. Then repenting when we fail.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Trencher7Obey meaning doing what the Lord asks of us and obeying his commandments. Then repenting when we fail.The only commandment that I know of is "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another". This commandment is necessary to be saved.
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 FlyonthewallI am saying:- believe and thou shall be saved- we work out our salvation by God working in us to do his willCareful...this sounds very familiar.- salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth- by the hearing of faith we receive the Spirit - as we live in the Spirit, we walk in the Spirit, we bear the fruit of the Spirit- without the spirit we can do nothing- God who dwells in us does the worksUnless God is a puppeteer, we still must put the effort out in doing the works.- I labor yet not I, the grace of God is with me - I give glory to God because according to his grace I work- my works show my faith, by works was faith made perfectjust what I have been saying all along!- I have no reason to boast because I am not justified on the basis of my worksYou must understand what Paul was talking about, and James states the direct oppositeCould you explain the role of grace when you demonstrate your faith through your works ... thanks. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. How does this relate to the following description that the Mormon Church teaches?GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adamâ??s fall and also because of manâ??s weaknesses."See FAITH under Gospel Topics and "Additional Informatoin": http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...0004d82620a____Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We work out our salvation by God working in us to do his will.When LDS use this phrase "We work out our salvation..." you claim that we believe salvation comes by works. Now you are using it, am I to understand that you now believe salvation comes by works? If we are obedient, God will work through us, but even so, we must still put forth an effort to do what He wants us to. If we do not put forth an effort, He will not work through us.
ebeddoulos Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 ebeddoulosWhat is your point ... I have no problem uttering "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â? Explain how Ephesians 2:10 supports the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)I take note of it and it fits nicely with "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".I would agree ... I am Catholic.Thank you for praying for me. I would suggest you pray that the Spirit of truth lead you to the truth. Jesus taught the truth that "there is one God; and there is none other but he". God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".If you have no problem with Ephesians 2:10, why is it that it has taken you until now to use it? Is it that you know that Ephesians 2:10 talks of the good works you are created to do in order to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?"So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Phillipians 2:12 - NAB)"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." (Phillipians 2:12 - DRB)"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12 - NASB)"Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always hearkened, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own saving health with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12 - JB2000)"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phillipians 2:12 - RSV)I hope that one of those versions is one which you customarily use. Latter-day Saints believe that works will not open the locked door into heaven.â??And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.â? (Romans 11:6)We need a key which unlocks those celestial doors. That key is the Grace of Jesus Christ and it is only this gift of God that unlocks the door.â??For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.â? (Ephesians 2:8-9)With the door unlocked, we then must work out our salvation.â??Work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ? (Philippians 2:12)If we donâ??t, we are just fooling ourselves. â??But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.â? (James 1:22)In short Paul is saying that all the works in the world will not gain you entrance into the kingdom of God but that a lack of works may very well keep you out. This is why you are judged not by faith but rather by your works.â??And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.â? (Revelation 20:12)You are welcome and just the obligatory FYI: I'm LDS; I have prayed; I have received the truth. I suggest that you follow your own prescription. "Physician, heal thyself!" I think you really need to experience the power of a witness from the Holy Ghost for yourself. When you do, you will then truly understand.
SUE65 Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Here's my take on the relationship between Grace and Works. I believe the answer to the original post lies in ones definition of "all [you] can do". If â??all we can doâ? is defined by killing yourself off trying to be perfect in your own strength â?¦ well youâ??re spending most of your life at arms length from the Lord and His Graceâ??and youâ??ve got it backwards. But, if you define â??all you can doâ? as what God actually asks you to do â?¦ and more importantlyâ??in the order He asks us to, then youâ??ll avail yourself of His Grace. The LDS bible dictionary defines Grace as "a divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ." It goes on to say that Grace is "an enabling power". And, that those who exercise faith and willingness to repent, then "receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." To me, when I combine this with the 4th Article of Faith, I understand (and my living, breathing experience has been) that the ability to do good works (including, even, the work of repentance) comes from that "enabling power", from that "strength and assistance" which is Grace. And it is accessed through my faith, and my willingness to repent. Not my ability to repent. But my willingness to repent. The sacrament prayer says "... that are willing to take upon them the name of Thy Son .." Willing. The 4th Article of Faith gives a list with 4 components--but, it makes special reference to the sequence of that list. It says the first principals and ordinances of the gospel are first (first, before anything else â?¦) .. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, Repentence. Interestingly, it doesn't say to repent first. It doesn't say try to "work it out by yourself first â?¦ Then after youâ??re all bloodied up .. my Grace will kick in â?¦â? It says FIRST believe me. Then, if you combine the Bible Dictionaryâ??s definition of Grace, you see that this act of faith is what avails you of the Grace ("enabling power") to do good. Your faith avails you of His enabling power to repent and grow line upon line. Becoming sanctified over time.The truth is, when Iâ??ve made a mistake, I donâ??t believe in trying to fix it first so God will like me. Itâ??s not to try and dig up the intestinal fortitude within myself. Itâ??s instead to avail myself of this Enabling Power by turning to my Heavenly Father and my Savior, and saying, as Peter did when he was sinking, Help! Or as the woman who was taken with the issue of blood. She reached out and touched the hemm of Christ, and â?¦ her situation changed. Interestingly, she had spent years prior going from physician to physician and nothing changed, did it? Why? Because she was trying to fix her problem with her own works. It wasnâ??t until she called out to the Savior. Excercized true faith in him. Then, she became able to do the works that changed her life.But, calling out for Help is work. Itâ??s the work of humility. The work of letting go of my need to be perfect in my own strength. Itâ??s an ongoing cognitive shift in my â??natural man, I can do it myself paradigmâ?. Itâ??s understanding that self-sufficiency in many contexts is a great thing. But, in the context of doing â??good worksâ?â??I alone am not sufficient. But, He is. And He will help me. And he will accept me when I fall short. And somehow in my clumsiness, He will be glorified.
shalamabobbi Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 The only commandment that I know of is "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another". This commandment is necessary to be saved.Someone hasn't read Matthew chapters 5-7..
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Flyonthewall>Careful...this sounds very familiar.Hopefuly it sounds familiar because it is straight from the Bible>Unless God is a puppeteer, we still must put the effort out in doing the works.God is not a puppeteer>just what I have been saying all along!Glad we are in agreement.You must understand what Paul was talking about, and James states the direct oppositeIt appears you still don't understand the doctrine of grace, the bible reveals- justified by his grace, not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5-7)- justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24)- if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God (Rom 4:2)- a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:16)- being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1)- justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9)His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.Interesting ... Your explanation does not even mention grace ...When LDS use this phrase "We work out our salvation..." you claim that we believe salvation comes by works. Now you are using it, am I to understand that you now believe salvation comes by works?It is God working, grace is BEFORE my effort. Grace is not AFTER my effort.If we are obedient, God will work through us, but even so, we must still put forth an effort to do what He wants us to. If we do not put forth an effort, He will not work through us.Does grace come before or after you put forth your effort .... BoM says "grace ... AFTER all we can do" ?
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 ebeddoulosIf you have no problem with Ephesians 2:10, why is it that it has taken you until now to use it? Is it that you know that Ephesians 2:10 talks of the good works you are created to do in order to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?I have not used it till now because their are some many other verses the show why Mormon doctrine is not Biblical doctrine. What is your point ... I know "Ephesians 2:10 talks of the good works you are created to do in order to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".Latter-day Saints believe that works will not open the locked door into heaven.Sounds like LDS believe grace comes AFTER works ... BoM says "grace ... AFTER all we can do".We need a key which unlocks those celestial doors. That key is the Grace of Jesus Christ and it is only this gift of God that unlocks the door.Sounds like this LDS key also needs "after all we can do ... obedience" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)With the door unlocked, we then must work out our salvation.Who is doing the work?In short Paul is saying that all the works in the world will not gain you entrance into the kingdom of God but that a lack of works may very well keep you out.Paul is saying "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ... justified by his grace ... be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men".This is why you are judged not by faith but rather by your works.Judged by belief ... those who do not believe are damned.You are welcome and just the obligatory FYI: I'm LDS; I have prayed; I have received the truth. I suggest that you follow your own prescription. "Physician, heal thyself!" I think you really need to experience the power of a witness from the Holy Ghost for yourself. When you do, you will then truly understand.I think you really need to experience the power of grace. I have experience the power of a witness from the Holy Ghost for myself. Clearly you do not understand Paul's teaching of grace.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 shalamabobbiSomeone hasn't read Matthew chapters 5-7..Clearly Matthew chapters 5-7 does not have the following man-made Mormon commandments:"... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...." Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 29
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 SUE65To me, when I combine this with the 4th Article of Faith, I understand (and my living, breathing experience has been) that the ability to do good works (including, even, the work of repentance) comes from that "enabling power", from that "strength and assistance" which is Grace. And it is accessed through my faith, and my willingness to repent. Not my ability to repent. But my willingness to repent. The sacrament prayer says "... that are willing to take upon them the name of Thy Son .." Willing.I find it interesting you fail to mention that the Mormon Church teaches enabling power comes AFTER â??all you can doâ?GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adamâ??s fall and also because of manâ??s weaknesses."
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 The only commandment that I know of is "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another".You must have a bitty Bible, Johnny. All the Best!--ConsiglieriClearly Matthew chapters 5-7 does not have the following man-made Mormon commandments:"... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...." Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..." Gospel Principles Chapter 29Nice dodge, Johnny.Oooo, I love to dance a little side-step.Now they see me, now they don't,I've come and gone.All the Best!--Consiglieri
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriYou must have a bitty Bible, Johnny.A Bible that has the doctrine of grace,Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)-Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.)-2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )Nice dodge, Johnny.You right I forgot the following man-made Mormon commandment:Gospel Principles Chapter 32 "We have been given commandments ...the Law of Tithing ..."
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 You right I forgot the following man-made Mormon commandment:[*]Gospel Principles Chapter 32 "We have been given commandments ...the Law of Tithing ..."Tithing is commanded in your Bible. But really, all scripture is written by man. Your Bible is from copies of copies of copies of copies. You have no idea what the originals really said. One wonders why God did not do a better job preserving his text.
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 But your bitty Bible does not have the Sermon on the Mount, or you would know there are more commandments than the one to which you subscribe.My Bible, which is admittedly bigger than yours, has Jesus confirming that folks ought to pay tithing.You must have snipped out Matthew 23:23, as well. All the Best!--Consiglieri
Teancum Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 For JohnyRead this before you go any further about LDS views in salvation:D&C 20:1-341 The arise of the of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called Aprilâ?? 2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the dfirst eelder of this church; 3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand; 4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen. 5 After it was truly manifested unto this first elder that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world; 6 But after repenting, and humbling himself sincerely, through faith, God ministered unto him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness; 7 And gave unto him commandments which inspired him; 8 And agave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon; 9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also; 10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by themâ?? 11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old; 12 Thereby showing that he is the God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen. 13 Therefore, having so great witnesses, by them shall the world be judged, even as many as shall hereafter come to a knowledge of this work. 14 And those who receive it in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life; 15 But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnationâ?? 16 For the Lord God has spoken it; and we, the elders of the church, have heard and bear witness to the words of the glorious Majesty on high, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same dunchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. 20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man. 21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. 22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them. 23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day; 24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father; 25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be savedâ?? 26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life, 27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son; 28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. 29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. 30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. 32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; 33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; 34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.This sums up really what I told you earlier. You may disagree but it certainly is what LDS believe, is quite Christian in its teachings and fits into a biblical model as well.
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumTithing is commanded in your Bible.If a person doesn't tithe can they be with their families forever?If a person doesn't tithe can they have an eternal marriage?The Mormon Church teaches:Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "If we obey the commandments of the Lord, our families will be together forever as husband, wife, and children."-Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriBut your bitty Bible does not have the Sermon on the Mount, or you would know there are more commandments than the one to which you subscribe.Which commandments are you talking about?My Bible, which is admittedly bigger than yours, has Jesus confirming that folks ought to pay tithing.If a person doesn't tithe will they be denied living with our heavenly Father?
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 TeancumThis sums up really what I told you earlier. You may disagree but it certainly is what LDS believe, is quite Christian in its teachings and fits into a biblical model as well.Could you please sum up what a person needs to do and what commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father and receive all his blessings because the Mormon scripture you provided seems to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches.
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriWhich commandments are you talking about?Those would be the ones in the Sermon on the Mount, which your Bible doesn't have. You could look in Matthew chapters 5-7 if you had them.If a person doesn't tithe will they be denied living with our heavenly Father?According to Matthew 23:23, it looks like Jesus felt that way. Take it up with him.All the Best!--Consiglieri
johnny Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriThose would be the ones in the Sermon on the Mount, which your Bible doesn't have. You could look in Matthew chapters 5-7 if you had them.Which are ...According to Matthew 23:23, it looks like Jesus felt that way. Take it up with him.Clearly Matthew 23:23 doesn't reveal what the Mormon Church teaches.
consiglieri Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 consiglieriWhich are .... . . legion.Perhaps we could start with Matthew 5:16, if it is still in your bitty Bible, Johnny.Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.Please note that Jesus says the "good works" are ours, not his.Is that still in your Bible?(I could understand why you might take it out.)All the Best!--Consiglieri
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