Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[johnny]

Trencher7

You are avoiding the question. Are you saying someone who has faith but not works or obedience is saved?

The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

[ebeddoulos]

Biblical doctrine says that Death = Faith â?? Works (James 2:20)

â??But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?â? (James 2:20)

Biblical doctrine also says that Grace = Faith + Works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

â??For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â? (Ephesians 2:8-10)

In other words, Grace is Faith dressed in work clothes.

[johnny]

ebeddoulos

In other words, Grace is Faith dressed in work clothes.

In other words it is not works ...if works then it is no more grace ...

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  
• -
  
• Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  

[Tanyan]

Is this not endless with Johnny ?. Charis through True Pistis Is What Saves Johnny. You are posting the same questions/aswers/scriptures over and over adinfinentum . Our works again do not Save us, they show the Savior that we want to remain Saved and Exhalted. To keep us in that Covenant of Grace with the LORD OF LIFE.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIght.

[coolrok7]

Is this not endless with Johnny ?. Charis through True Pistis Is What Saves Johnny. You are posting the same questions/aswers/scriptures over and over adinfinentum . Our works again do not Save us, they show the Savior that we want to remain Saved and Exhalted. To keep us in that Covenant of Grace with the LORD OF LIFE.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIght.

Why the twisting of Scripture here Tanyan? (you can't earn what is already a gift):

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following (the first two I have no problem in which I already meet the requirements, the last two are not Biblical:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

The Bible does not teach the above (except for points 1, 2). For Scripture teaches (which is not a denial that works accompany faith):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Until you answer tthis correctly, then all you're doing is just blowing smoke.

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos

In other words it is not works ...if works then it is no more grace ...

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  
• -
  
• Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  

You appear to be having difficulty differentiating between what Latter-day Saints actually believe and what anti-Mormons say we believe. I'll do my best to help you out but in order to do so, you must put aside the silly drivel found on the anti-Mormon sites. Do not read their incorrect, petty, straw-man interpretation into what I said. Such dishonest antics are unworthy of true followers of Jesus.

For example, I did NOT say that that grace was works. Please note the bold capitalized underlined not. I fully understand and I am in total agreement with the scriptures you quoted. That very same doctrinal concept is taught in the Book of Mormon, which anti-Mormons and their ilk conveniently manage to ignore in their misguided attempt to build a strawman.

â??There is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.â? (2 Nephi 25:20)

â??For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.â? (Mosiah 3:12)

â??Yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christâ? (Helaman 5:9)

Please also note that I, too, used Ephesians 2:8-9. I also used verse 10 which anti-Mormons somehow always manage to ignore.

Based on verse 10, I said, "Grace is Faith dressed in work clothes". It is my prayer on your behalf that you can now distinguish the difference between what I actually said and what you are trying to force my words to say.

[Tanyan]

Why the twisting of Scripture here Tanyan? (you can't earn what is already a gift):

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following (the first two I have no problem in which I already meet the requirements, the last two are not Biblical:

The Bible does not teach the above (except for points 1, 2). For Scripture teaches (which is not a denial that works accompany faith):

Until you answer tthis correctly, then all you're doing is just blowing smoke.

What twisting of scripture ?, Blowing smoke ?.You need to accept and use the Free Gift which is conditional and can be taken away if misused by your Actions/Works but is kept By your Actions and Works born out of LOVE for Jesus Christ. Salvation maintenence is required. It's all about True Charis through true Pistis.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

We need to get Johnny [Catholic] and coolrok [Lutheran] posting to each other on this board.

[johnny]

ebeddoulos

I fully understand and I am in total agreement with the scriptures you quoted.

Please explain how you are in agreement with Rom 11:6, see below

• Rom.11([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  

Biblical doctrine also says that Grace = Faith + Works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us.

[Tanyan]

ebeddoulos

I did say that you said "grace was works"

Please explain how you are in agreement with Rom 11:6, see below

• Rom.11([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  

Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us.

That is true, and no mosaic law works will save but Charis through true Pistis will !

[shalamabobbi]

Christ came and preached the gospel. He said be baptised.

Paul says, If you believe Christ you will be saved.

So to believe Christ means to believe what he taught, i.e. be baptised.

(not mentioning everything else Christ taught for simplicity of illustration, as Matt 5, 6, 7 etc)

I agree with post #77 and agree the critics are cherry picking..

As long as the critics are cherry picking, at least they could be intellectually honest enough to dismiss biblical inerrancy, since they posit a bible that contradicts itself in the process.

And if the bible did contradict itself, you'd think they could get the order of authority right, that is giving highest respect to the words of Christ, next highest to Peter, next highest to James and John, and least to him who knew he was least of all and admitted it, Paul.

But if the bible is inerrant, you should be intellectually honest enough to find an interpretation that brings seemingly conflicting scriptural passages into agreement, something you have not done in the process of cherry picking. When I read the surrounding passages of scripture against the cherry picked passages, it does a 180 on how they are being wielded.

This as an example:

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Paul was dealing with the issue of the time which was: Does the law of Moses bring salvation or does the gospel of Christ bring salvation?

The warning in Galatians 1:6 was a warning to then living members of the church. The gospel was being inundated with those who wanted to continue observance of the law of Moses and assimilate it into the gospel. This is what Paul laboured against in his epistles. The law is short for the law of Moses, not for the commandments and teachings of Christ in Matt 5, 6, 7 etc which is part of the gospel of Christ which Paul refers to by the word, grace.

Look at Galatians 5:2 ye cherry pickers..

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

So I can see this, why can't the critics? I have to assume it is the critics who are the ones blowing smoke, even a smoke screen..

Are most everybody in today's world circumcised? Does that make the gospel of none effect? No, because it is no longer done with belief in the law of Moses.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

verse 24 states that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" - seems to directly contradict what you just said the rest of the passage states.

The doing shows a person's faith, is not faith only. Abraham was not justified on the basis of his works, if he was then he has reason to boast. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. It depends on faith, so that it may be a gift. Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God (Rom 4:2-20).

[shalamabobbi]

The doing shows a person's faith, is not faith only(alone). Abraham was not justified on the basis of his works(alone, apart from faith centered in Christ, which his work of sacrificing his son forshadowed), if he was then he has reason to boast. Abraham believed God(had faith in Him and so did the work asked by God of him to do), and it was credited to him as righteousness. It depends on faith(demonstrated by obeying God), so that it may be a gift(obedience does not make it any less a gift). Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief(and hence fail to obey what God asked him to do); rather, he was empowered by faith(to obey God's command to offer his son in sacrifice in similitude of Christ) and gave glory to God (Rom 4:2-20).

Try as you might the concept of faith and works or obedience cannot be separated.

Two variables create four possible scenarios..

1. Abraham believes God (has faith) and obeys offering his son

2. Abraham disbelieves God (has no faith) and disobeys not offering his son

3. Abraham believes God but offers not his son

4. Abraham disbelieves God but offers his son anyhow

1 and 2 are the only self-consistent choices which tie faith together with works

3 is a contradiction. If he offers not his son, he really disbelieves God.

4 is an example of dead works, no pun intended. Kind of like believing in the law of Moses at the time of Christ preaching the gospel,

or being baptised by someone without priesthood authority to do so.

works without faith are dead also..

[johnny]

shalamabobbi

Try as you might the concept of faith and works or obedience cannot be separated.

Are we saved by works?

Two variables create four possible scenarios..

1. Abraham believes God (has faith) and obeys offering his son

2. Abraham disbelieves God (has no faith) and disobeys not offering his son

1 and 2 are the only self-consistent choices which tie faith together with works

Who did the work ... can Abraham boast?

[shalamabobbi]

Are we saved by works?

we are saved by faith demonstrated by works or obedience..

without the works/obedience we cannot claim to have faith..

Who did the work ... can Abraham boast?

He cannot boast of the atonement of Christ. He is expected in the gospel covenant to obey God which is not a foundation for boasting.

When we obey we are blessed for that obedience and so 'are paid', so we are yet unprofitable servants in the language of the BOM and have therefore nothing of which to boast.

But if the works alone apart from the atonement could bring salvation, which they can't, then he'd have something of which to boast.

The point Paul makes is that the law of Moses doesn't bring salvation, dead works don't save. His audience needed to see the need for Christ's atonement and faith in that atonement.

The point for modern readers that is lacking is the corollary, dead faith does not save either.

Faith and works together bring life to each other, like the electric and magnetic fields together admitting the propagation of light..

[johnny]

shalamabobbi

we are saved by faith demonstrated by works or obedience..

without the works/obedience we cannot claim to have faith..

How come your answer differs with Titus 3:5, see below

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  

He cannot boast of the atonement of Christ. He is expected in the gospel covenant to obey God which is not a foundation for boasting.

Can he boast for his "doing"?

The point Paul makes is that the law of Moses doesn't bring salvation, dead works don't save. His audience needed to see the need for Christ's atonement and faith in that atonement.

Which works save if "dead works don't save"?

[shalamabobbi]

How come your answer differs with Titus 3:5, see below

* Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)

cherry picking again?

Titus 3:1-8

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work.

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. (speaking of their life before accepting the gospel)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

(verse 4 is the start of verse 5. They are both the same sentence, notice the comma at the end of verse 4.)

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

(What is not by works of righteousness? the atonement of Christ from verse 4.)

5cont.. but according to his mercy he saved us,

(even with a repentance that is perfect, I still have sins in my past that require His mercy through the atonement.

And I realise that I will stumble in one way or other and need to rededicate myself and repent throughout this life..)

5cont.. by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(A reference to the need for baptism and the gift of the holy Ghost given by the laying on of hands by priesthood authority.

Of course if one does not obey then baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are to no avail and are dead works as then they are not combined with faith..)

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(mercy and forgiveness for sins past come through the atonement on conditions of repentance..)

7 That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(works alone are dead as is faith alone..both are necessary to receive this atonement.)

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

Note also a couple of other verses from this same epistle:

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Can he boast for his "doing"?

No, because he was commanded to do it.

If my employer tells me to do something and I go do it, can I return and boast that I did it(for which I am paid) without coming off as a retard?

He might respond, "Well good for you, I won't fire you today. Now go do this next.."

Which works save if "dead works don't save"?

Baptism by authority of the restored priesthood, receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by the same authority.

Those that Christ commanded (in Matt 5-7 for example) if done with faith centered in Christ and His restored gospel.

Other ordinances and laws that are a part of Christ's gospel but are missing from the bible, but have been restored in our dispensation..

Works done with faith in Christ, which works/obedience is commanded by Christ. If we set up our own program instead of responding to His program then those works become dead. This is the reason God had respect unto Abel's sacrifice but not Cain's. Abel's was according to the commandments of the Lord and Cain offered something that was not according to God's program. He was creative with God's program and altered it according to his own ideas of how things should be done..

The works/obedience demonstrate our faith in Christ and make his atonement effective in our life. It is the atonement that saves, but we must believe Christ to receive it. What must we believe? We must believe in his atoning sacrifice by keeping his commandments. They come from him after all..

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos

Please explain how you are in agreement with Rom 11:6, see below

• Rom.11([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  

Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us.

You definitely are having difficulty differentiating between what Latter-day Saints actually believe and what anti-Mormons say we believe. Pay close attention now. Don't let this zinger get past you. Are you ready? Here it comes!

Romans 11:6 is sound Latter-day Saint doctrine!

Pretty cool explanation, huh?

[Trencher7]

Trencher7

The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

Johnny, come back to us when you get some reasoning skills. Quit wasting our time. If you had a good answer you would have given it by now.

[ryanelwood]

I believe the traditional belief about 2 Nephi 25:23 to be the correct interpretation as contained in the LDS Bible dictionary under grace that says "grace cannot suffice without total effort on teh part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, 'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.'" This intperpretation is also consistent with Moroni 10:32, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

[johnny]

shalamabobbi

cherry picking again?

Believers obey because they love God, not to be saved. None of the verses you highlighted support the Mormon doctrine of "saved, by obedience".

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

We are not saved "by works of righteousness which we have done". Believers are careful to maintain good work of the spirit because they are good and profitable unto men, the fruit of the spirit bring rewards and blessings. Believers repent of dead works..

Titus 2:11-14

What is your point with the above verses?

Thos who believe and understand the word of God will live righteously and godly. Christ will redeem us from all iniquity and he will purify us.

No, because he was commanded to do it.

If my employer tells me to do something and I go do it, can I return and boast that I did it(for which I am paid) without coming off as a retard?

He might respond, "Well good for you, I won't fire you today. Now go do this next..

Interesting ... so you obey the commandments so you wont' get fired by God.

Baptism by authority of the restored priesthood, receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by the same authority.

Is Baptism necessary for those who have not heard the gospel on this earth?

Those that Christ commanded (in Matt 5-7 for example) if done with faith centered in Christ and His restored gospel.

Surely Christ did not command us to marry like the man-made Mormon commandment.

Other ordinances and laws that are a part of Christ's gospel but are missing from the bible, but have been restored in our dispensation..

Where the apostles commanded not to use wine, tobacco, coffee?

Works done with faith in Christ, which works/obedience is commanded by Christ. If we set up our own program instead of responding to His program then those works become dead.

Do you respond to "His program" to be saved?

He was creative with God's program and altered it according to his own ideas of how things should be done..

The Mormon Church has altered God's program when it adds that the Lord has commanded marriage and that it is necessary to live with out heavenly Father.

The works/obedience demonstrate our faith in Christ and make his atonement effective in our life.

Are these works/obedience (e.g. baptism, marriage) necessary to live with our heavenly Father.

It is the atonement that saves, but we must believe Christ to receive it. What must we believe? We must believe in his atoning sacrifice by keeping his commandments. They come from him after all..

Do you believe that if are your not married before the Last Judgment you will not live with your heavenly Father?

[johnny]

ebeddoulos

Romans 11:6 is sound Latter-day Saint doctrine!

If Romans 11:6 is sound doctrine then why would Mormon's believe the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; Article of Faith #3)?

[johnny]

Trencher7

Johnny, come back to us when you get some reasoning skills. Quit wasting our time. If you had a good answer you would have given it by now.

The answer is straight from the bible and is consistent with the doctrine "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

It appears you do not understand the doctrine of grace ...

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

I believe we are saved by grace through faith. Those saved obey God's commandment because they love him not to be saved.

And here we have the heart of the distinction, which is what I hear from Evangelicals over and over again, and why it is I am surprised to be hearing it from a Catholic.

But I have to admit this is to me an inane statement.

It is to say that saved individuals obey the commandments solely and purely out of love for God and with absolutely not one iota of thought for how it will impact their own eternity. I do not believe such a person exists, except in your fetid imagination, Johnny.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[urroner]

And here we have the heart of the distinction, which is what I hear from Evangelicals over and over again, and why it is I am surprised to be hearing it from a Catholic.

But I have to admit this is to me an inane statement.

It is to say that saved individuals obey the commandments solely and purely out of love for God and with absolutely not one iota of thought for how it will impact their own eternity. I do not believe such a person exists, except in your fetid imagination, Johnny.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Ask them what is the difference between "being saved" and "rewards." Ask Johnny if one can be saved without the sacraments of the RCC and if so, why do them in the first place since they are meaningless.