Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[Bsix]

I have ask you twice now ... why do you continue to avoid the question ... the question is ... What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

Johnny...I have answered your questions here on this thread and on the other thread. Now, I may not have formulated my answer exactly how you imagined, but I have directly answered the questions posed to me. Perhaps if you make your question more specific, I will attempt to answer again.

Speaking of avioding questions, you have made the non-answer-changing-the-subject and art form.

I have asked you a few simple yes- or-no questions that you seem to be avoiding. Here they are again:

Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

God's commandments.

Which commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

Please explain "it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life". What happens if your works do not bear fruit? Are you still saved with eternal life? To my unlearned ears/eyes, it sounds a lot like works being an ingredient for eternal life.

The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

We must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Which teachings must we follow to live with our heavenly Father?

[johnny]

Bsix

I have ask you twice now ... why do you continue to avoid the question ... the question is ... What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

To live with our heavenly Father you must NOT willfully turn away from to God, see Catholic teaching below:

• 1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end
  

Johnny...I have answered your questions here on this thread and on the other thread. Now, I may not have formulated my answer exactly how you imagined, but I have directly answered the questions posed to me. Perhaps if you make your question more specific, I will attempt to answer again.

Must you do the following commands and believe the following to live with our heavenly Father?

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"
  

Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

The bottom line on those items is that "a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end" to go to hell (CCC1037).

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Which commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

Are you tryng to make this harder than it is? It is very simple...All the commandments can be summed up in the two given in the New Testatment- Love God, Love thy neighbor. If you love God, then you will obey His word. If you love your neighbor, you will treat them like you would like to be treated.

The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

Careful Johnny, this is awfully close to saying that works are required for salvation. It sounds as if you are saying that works of the individual(whether or not they are done by the grace of God, the individual still has to do them) determines if one is profitable or not.

Which teachings must we follow to live with our heavenly Father?

The ones He has given us not prefaced by "this is optional but..." or suffixed with "you really don't have to do that one, I just threw that in for kicks and giggles".

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Are you tryng to make this harder than it is? It is very simple...All the commandments can be summed up in the two given in the New Testatment- Love God, Love thy neighbor. If you love God, then you will obey His word. If you love your neighbor, you will treat them like you would like to be treated.

Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

Careful Johnny, this is awfully close to saying that works are required for salvation. It sounds as if you are saying that works of the individual(whether or not they are done by the grace of God, the individual still has to do them) determines if one is profitable or not.

I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

The ones He has given us not prefaced by "this is optional but..." or suffixed with "you really don't have to do that one, I just threw that in for kicks and giggles".

For me the Mormon commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father. I would consider these man-made commandments.

[captain-jack]

Flyonthewall

I know you meant it for him, but I feel like throwing in my two pieces of eight. So I will concede that you do not have to answer me directly on these.

Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

Yes, if you want to get to the Celestial Kingdom. However, that doesn't mean that if you have ever not followed those, then you cannot get there.

I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

In the context? Meaning that it is an interpretation? We do not interpret our Scriptures to say that we are saved by works, either. Or do you read our Scripture in that context?

For me the Mormon commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father. I would consider these man-made commandments.

For me: saying Rosaries, believing in Nicene Creed, and allowing of many sins while still being "saved" are man-made commandments that are counter productive to God's plan for us.

[Bsix]

Johnny, for the third time...

Can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

captain-jack

I know you meant it for him, but I feel like throwing in my two pieces of eight. So I will concede that you do not have to answer me directly on these.

Thanks for the reply ...

Yes, if you want to get to the Celestial Kingdom. However, that doesn't mean that if you have ever not followed those, then you cannot get there.

Are those Mormon commandments considered works ... are they part of "after all we can do"?

In the context? Meaning that it is an interpretation? We do not interpret our Scriptures to say that we are saved by works, either. Or do you read our Scripture in that context?

I would read the following as saved by works

- saved, after all we can do (BoM)

- saved, by obedience (A/F 3

For me: saying Rosaries, believing in Nicene Creed, and allowing of many sins while still being "saved" are man-made commandments that are counter productive to God's plan for us.

These are not commandments.

[johnny]

Bsix

Can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

You consider them "mormon" commandments, I consider them to be God's commandments. How can one expect to live with our Heavenly Father if they are not willing to obey Him?(means "yes")

I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

Are you then saying that salvation is not by works, but we can lose our salvation if we don't have works - being an unprofitable servant?

For me the Mormon God's commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father. I would consider these man-made commandments.

Being non-LDS, this is understandable.

[Bsix]

Johnny:

Thanks for answering my question. You said:

- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

This seems completely at odds with any official Catholic docrtrine I have ever read and at odds with the other Catholics on this message board.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

You consider them "mormon" commandments, I consider them to be God's commandments. How can one expect to live with our Heavenly Father if they are not willing to obey Him?(means "yes")

I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

Are you then saying that salvation is not by works, but we can lose our salvation if we don't have works - being an unprofitable servant?

I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  

[Tanyan]

I have stated this before and will do so again, Read the whole chapter of 2 Nephi 1-30 to get the context and true interpetation of what "all we can do" means, it's simple Johnny [And other critics], my 11-12 year olds I used to teach in Church Primary Sunday School were not Brainiacs but they could see/understand it. Also try reading Alma 24:11 [The Whole chapter] to get what "All we can/could do" means. Also get a good LDS BofM commentary and look up this verse and see what it says about that verse [and chapter as well].

Now that verse has been Christianized for our day and the "All we can do" is keeping the 2 great commandments and all those sub commandments that fall under the great 2 commandments. This must be done out of True Faith [Pistis] in Jesus Christ and nothing else.Yes we all fall and come up short, but the LORD looks at our Hearts/Minds and knows that thou there are times we all stumble,fall short, come up empty, we truly want to obey and serve. And he acctepts that.

The importance is accessing and making alive that "Grace" and stay in that covenant of Jesus Christs Grace so as to having been/being currently/will be Saved Condition in our journey/quest to arrive at the Kingdom of Heaven.

From one Catholic I have come accross to another [Johnny]see : http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[johnny]

Bsix

This seems completely at odds with any official Catholic docrtrine I have ever read and at odds with the other Catholics on this message board.

It is obvious you do not understand Catholic Doctrine or grace... that is why I gave you the one Catholic teaching below because it summarizes it best. A person will live with our heavenly Father if they don't go to hell.

• 1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end
  

[Bsix]

In a spirit of fairness, I will attempt to answer Johnny's quesiton of me:

What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

I can live with my Father in Heaven through the Atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Specifically this breaks down into three general catagories of faithful and sincere obidience:

1) Faith. Faith in Jesus Christ and his Gospel is the foundational principle of salvation. It is the first principle of the Gospel.

2) Ordinances: Some churches call these sacraments. To live with Heavenly Father, we should be baptized, Confirmed/receive Holy Spirit, partaking of the sacrament, and Temple Endowed.

3) Follow the commandments: This includes all matter of faithfully living the commandments of God -- loving God and Jesus Christ, dedicating your life to them, loving and serving your fellow man, enduring to the end and repenting of sins, consecrating time and goods to building the kingdom, living a chaste life, keeping the Sabbath Day holy, being honest and true, keeping our physical temples pure (Word of wisdom), and other acts that typify true discipleship.

That's it.

Now within Mormon theology, there are some nuances.

The gift of resurrection is a free and univerals free gift from the Grace of God. You do not have to do anything to receive it.

For virtually all humankind, there is a grace-based salvation in the heavens for those who never believed, or who believed but did not have sufficient faith to obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. This too is a free gift of the atoning grace.

Lastly, for those who do live with in heaven with Heavenly Father and choose to be married for time and all eternity, they can be exalted...become like God.

Regards,

Six

[Tanyan]

Flyonthewall

I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  

We are not Saved by our Personal Adamic nature works in and of themselves with no true Pistis, we need to open up and use the Free gift of Grace and follow its instructions to access its power in our spiritual/temporal lives. We must be Bondservants !. .

In His Debt/Grace,Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Bsix]

1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end

I would suggest that anyone who professes to be a believer and refuses God to be baptized, refuses to be confirmed, commits mortal and grave sins, refuses to to confess and repent, and dies in sin without last rites...has willfully truned away from God. Such a person may not be predestined to go to hell...but they don't seem to fit into the category of a believer whose faith is manifest by his or her works.

Regards,

Six

[robuchan]

In all probability I am a complete idiot but Robinson's interpretation seems to simply state *the opposite* of what the verse actually says.

I like Robinson's interpretation better.... and indeed I wish that the verse read "in spite of all we can do." Problem is, the most straightforward interpretation of this verse aligns with the GA interpretation

Interesting. Why do you say that? If you go by the GA's, then Robinson definitely has it wrong. I keep waiting for a GA to interpret it that way, but I think I'll be waiting a long time. And I'd guess there are ten that have interpreted it the opposite way. I did a study on this once.

But if you look at the verse and the context, I feel Robinson's "in spite of" interpretation is the most logical. Maybe I'm just rooting too hard for it, but it seems more likely to me that the author (Nephi/Joseph/God/whoever) meant it that way.

[johnny]

Bsix

I can live with my Father in Heaven through the Atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Sounds like you are adding "obedience" .... did you change your mind ... in the thread below you said "we are saved by the atoning grace of Jesus Christ."

Lutheran Brand of Catholicism

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208567771

That's it.

You say "that's it" ... how come you differ with "captain-jack", he seemed to indicate that the Mormon commandants of marriage, having children, not using wine, not useing tobacco, not using coffee were necessary to live with the heavenly Father.

Don't you believe the following are commandments?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

Now within Mormon theology, there are some nuances.

Sounds like Mormon theology is salvation by works ... you say "by obedience" ... the BoM says "saved, after all we can do" ... the A/F 3 say "saved, by obedience".

[Mudcat]

Interesting. Why do you say that? If you go by the GA's, then Robinson definitely has it wrong. I keep waiting for a GA to interpret it that way, but I think I'll be waiting a long time. And I'd guess there are ten that have interpreted it the opposite way. I did a study on this once.

But if you look at the verse and the context, I feel Robinson's "in spite of" interpretation is the most logical. Maybe I'm just rooting too hard for it, but it seems more likely to me that the author (Nephi/Joseph/God/whoever) meant it that way.

I think its interesting that there is such a division in the CoJCoLDS on what I would think is a very significant piece of doctrine.

This rift seems to exist outside of discussion boards as well. My father-in-law and the local Branch Pres came by the house for a 'friendly' visit. The subject of grace and works came up and my father-in-law supported what I might call the standard position, that the GA's support. The BP fell more in line with Robinson, which IMO, falls more in line with my own evangelical perspective. It was very spirited discussion which ultimately led to us finding what we could in common on the topic and moving on.

However, it would seem that those who adhere to this 'in spite of' interpretation are doing so of their own volition and would be placing themselves outside of doctrine on the point. Am I seeing that correctly? Or do you think its possible that the issue isn't relevant enough to matter in that regard?

[johnny]

Bsix

I would suggest that anyone who professes to be a believer and refuses God to be baptized, refuses to be confirmed, commits mortal and grave sins, refuses to to confess and repent, and dies in sin without last rites...has willfully truned away from God.

If he dies in mortal sin then he won't with be with our heavenly Father.

Such a person may not be predestined to go to hell...but they don't seem to fit into the category of a believer whose faith is manifest by his or her works.

They don't seem fit to you because you believe in the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do" instead of the Biblical doctrine of "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works"

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

One of the things which are interpreted very differently by our respective faiths, but that's a separate thread.

I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  

And James states very clearly that works are a part of faith, which is the vehicle through which grace is effective.

On the one hand, I hear you saying that salvation has nothing to do with works. On the other hand, I hear you saying that the unprofitable servant is cast out to outer darkness. What makes a servant unprofitable if not works?

[Tanyan]

One of the componants [Which is connected to True Faith] to access Jesus Christs Grace is through "Obedience" Hebrews 5:9.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Bsix]

Sounds like you are adding "obedience" .... did you change your mind ... in the thread below you said "we are saved by the atoning grace of Jesus Christ."

No. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace.

If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

One of the things which are interpreted very differently by our respective faiths, but that's a separate thread.

I agree ...

And James states very clearly that works are a part of faith, which is the vehicle through which grace is effective.

You are missing the point of James. We are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). We hear the word of God which says "love one another" and we do. We show are faith by our works of mercy (James 2:13-18). By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only (James 2:21-24). Faith without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). By adding virtues like mercy and charity to our faith we shall not be unfruitful (2Pet 1:3-8 ).

James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, by doing the word of God his faith was made perfect, he was justified (James 2:21-26). Abraham was not justified by his works, if so then he would have reason to boast, Abraham was credited with righteousness because Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief, rather he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God, the promised inheritance is through the righteousness that comes from faith (Rom 4:2-25).

On the one hand, I hear you saying that salvation has nothing to do with works. On the other hand, I hear you saying that the unprofitable servant is cast out to outer darkness. What makes a servant unprofitable if not works?

The spirit is what makes him ... with the spirit, the fruit of the spirit is produced ... without the spirit, the works of the flesh.