Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[johnny]

consiglieri

But I have to admit this is to me an inane statement.

This "inane statement" is consistent with what the Bible reveals.

It is to say that saved individuals obey the commandments solely and purely out of love for God and with absolutely not one iota of thought for how it will impact their own eternity. I do not believe such a person exists, except in your fetid imagination, Johnny.

You might want to get out more ... as a Mormon who believes "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" I can understand why you believe the above.

[consiglieri]

[

You might want to get out more ... as a Mormon who believes "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" I can understand why you believe the above.

Johnny,

I am getting sick and tired of your adding a parenthetical statement to your out-of-context Book of Mormon sentence fragment in order to get it to say what you want it to say; and then telling me that I am a Mormon who "believes" your twisted interpretation.

You have done the same thing at least once on another thread.

It is offensive and juvenile.

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

consiglieri

I am getting sick and tired of your adding a parenthetical statement to your out-of-context Book of Mormon sentence fragment in order to get it to say what you want it to say; and then telling me that I am a Mormon who "believes" your twisted interpretation.

Do you believe "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)?

Please provide your interpretation ... thanks

[captain-jack]

Through faith we receive the grace.

Which begs the question, what about faith? Does it magically happen one day, or does it build up slowly? I believe it can be either, but I do believe it doesn't come on it's own. No one can force you to have faith, that is your choice, meaning you have to do something first in order to receive grace. If you don't believe this, then it's God's fault we all aren't saved because He didn't give me sufficient faith in the first place to give me grace.

The way I see it, it boils down to two possibilities:

1. We do have to do things in order to accept grace, which is how we can be held accountable for our sins.

2. We do not have to do things in order to accept grace, which mean that if we don't have enough faith (etc.), it's God's fault and we can't be held responsible for ourselves.

Jesus and the apostle Paul would rather everyone walk as they are called, every man has his proper gift of God. Some are called to marry and some are not.

I am not familiar with what scripture you are speaking of. But just because we each have different gifts does not mean that God doesn't want us all to be married. I don't see how you can make that association, seems like a very personal interpretation to me.

The Mormon Church teaches marriage is essential for eternal life.

It's for exaltation, not just eternal life. You need to get it straight what we are teaching.

Faith is about believing.

I never said it wasn't, but showing our faith by our works is obedience to God, would you agree? Only a 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

You say you don't believe in "salvation by works" ... are you saying works are not part of salvation?

Non sequitur. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that it is grace that saves us, but we are expected to be worthy of the grace by obeying God's laws.

you> Do you believe that you are saved without having to do anything at all?

me> I believe we are saved through faith and grace.

Thanks for side stepping, that isn't what I asked for. I asked if you believe you can be saved without having to do anything. A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

you> Do you believe that you cannot lose said salvation through your own hand?

me> I believe we can loose our salvation.

What else, besides your works, could possibly be a reason for losing salvation? Your works being your obedience to God's will and commandments.

you> Do you believe that you cannot gain said salvation unless you accept it? It may be there for you, but do you believe you have to choice to accept or deny it?

me> I believe we have a choice to believe or not believe.

In this choice, what makes us choose? Is it we or God who decides that we will believe? Careful though, an answer of us means that you are required to put in effort on your part in order to gain your salvation meaning you believe you are saved by works, or atleast that is what you accuse us of. However, if you say "God" then if we aren't saved, it's God's fault for not making us choose right.

I'm up rather early and not in the best mood, so my apologies if I am abrupt. My 6 month old daughter has decided after going to bed late (11:30pm) that now is the best time to be awake and cranky.

[busybee]

Bsix

- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.

- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

A sincere believer of what......... THE FRICKING TOOTH FAIRY??????

You mean I've been trying for the past 45 years to be good and do good when all I needed to do was to profess to being a sincere believer and be done with it!!! Come on even you can't be as dumb to believe that!!!

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

Do you believe "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)?

Please provide your interpretation ... thanks

I do not believe your parenthetical mischaracterization of the Book of Mormon sentence fragment you keep repeating.

I find this as offensive as you would likely find it if I said that Catholics believe "saved by grace alone (saved, in wickedness)" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Nor does any Mormon believe it, to my knowledge.

I have provided my interpretation over and over again, but you do not seem to want to hear it.

My view is virtually identical to that of Saemo, and this is what I understand the Book of Mormon to teach.

You might be interested in knowing that the Book of Mormon teaches:

2 Nephi 31:19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

captain-jack

Which begs the question, what about faith? Does it magically happen one day, or does it build up slowly?

Faith comes by hearing, from this hearing you chose to believe or not believe. Faith builds up as virtues and charity are added. We accept grace through faith.

I am not familiar with what scripture you are speaking of. But just because we each have different gifts does not mean that God doesn't want us all to be married. I don't see how you can make that association, seems like a very personal interpretation to me.

Below are the related scriptures.

Marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it please the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

It's for exaltation, not just eternal life. You need to get it straight what we are teaching

Is marriage essential to live with our heavenly Father?

I never said it wasn't, but showing our faith by our works is obedience to God, would you agree? Only a 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

We show our faith by the fruit of the Spirit.

Non sequitur. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that it is grace that saves us, but we are expected to be worthy of the grace by obeying God's laws.

If you have to become worthy then it is not grace.

Thanks for side stepping, that isn't what I asked for. I asked if you believe you can be saved without having to do anything. A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

You have to believe to be saved.

What else, besides your works, could possibly be a reason for losing salvation? Your works being your obedience to God's will and commandments.

Not believing is a reason.

In this choice, what makes us choose? Is it we or God who decides that we will believe? Careful though, an answer of us means that you are required to put in effort on your part in order to gain your salvation meaning you believe you are saved by works, or atleast that is what you accuse us of. However, if you say "God" then if we aren't saved, it's God's fault for not making us choose right.

We choose to believe or not believe. Belief of the gospel is not a work.

I'm up rather early and not in the best mood, so my apologies if I am abrupt. My 6 month old daughter has decided after going to bed late (11:30pm) that now is the best time to be awake and cranky.

Enjoying the exchange of ideas ... happy new year ... all my kids are older, sometimes I miss those days and sometimes I don't.

[johnny]

busybee

A sincere believer of what......... THE FRICKING TOOTH FAIRY??????

A sincere believer in what the apostles of Christ taught.

[johnny]

consiglieri

I do not believe your parenthetical mischaracterization of the Book of Mormon sentence fragment you keep repeating.

The words are straight from the BoM and the interpretation comes straight from the A/F.

I find this as offensive as you would likely find it if I said that Catholics believe "saved by grace alone (saved, in wickedness)" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Please provide where Catholics teach "saved, in wickedness".

Nor does any Mormon believe it, to my knowledge.

Interesting ... Mormon's do not believe their own 3rd article of faith.

[busybee]

ebeddoulos

If Romans 11:6 is sound doctrine then why would Mormon's believe the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; Article of Faith #3)?

Oh Mein Liebe!!!

Would you ever finish the quote when using the 3rd AoF.

It says " by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel"

Who's laws and ordinances?? God's laws.

You couldn't expect to be allowed to move to a country where they knew you were planning on not keeping the laws of that specific country. You can't expect to live with Heavenly father if you're not willing to keep His laws.

[urroner]

Interesting ... Mormon's do not believe their own 3rd article of faith.

We believe it as much as the Catholics believe the Council of Trent.

Have a nice day Johnny!!

[captain-jack]

Faith comes by hearing, from this hearing you chose to believe or not believe. Faith builds up as virtues and charity are added. We accept grace through faith.

So you believe you are saved by your work of accepting grace. For without accepting it, you cannot be saved.

Below are the related scriptures.

Marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

If you read the scriptures, eunuchs are excused, but it says nothing of those who are capable.

The apostle Paul that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it please the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

You skipped verse 10:

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband

If you read the scriptures carefully, it says that those who cannot have children, then it is ok if they don't marry. But for those who can it seems to me that it is commanded. In the Bible, or will it soon be that we don't believe in the same Bible?

Is marriage essential to live with our heavenly Father?

For exaltation, where Heavenly Father resides, yes.

We show our faith by the fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit of your labor/Your works. What is the difference?

If you have to become worthy then it is not grace.

Then anyone can be saved in sin. If you do not repent, how can you be worthy?

You have to believe to be saved.

Fine, I believe, I'm saved. Go home Johnny, you're done here. I'm saved, and so long as I don't stop believing Christ died for me, then I'm good. I can do whatever I want.

Not believing is a reason.

I'll comment on this later.

We choose to believe or not believe. Belief of the gospel is not a work.

How is it not a work? I honestly think this whole "faith v works" is to some a "chicken v egg" debate. I think the faith comes first, by our own hand. Like you said, we choose that. But I don't understand how you can justify that position. How can belief/faith not be a work at all? What is it then?

Enjoying the exchange of ideas ... happy new year ... all my kids are older, sometimes I miss those days and sometimes I don't.

I look forward to days unlike this.

[busybee]

busybee

A sincere believer in what the apostles of Christ taught.

Why would any one profess to be a true believer of what the apostles of Christ taught and refuse to do the things you mentioned ???

Your reasoning defies logic!!!

[johnny]

busybee

Who's laws and ordinances?? God's laws.

God's law is not that marriage is essential to live with our heavenly Father. The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment.

Why would any one profess to be a true believer of what the apostles of Christ taught and refuse to do the things you mentioned ???

Christ did not command us to marry and have children.

[consiglieri]

busybee

God's law is not that marriage is essential to live with our heavenly Father. The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment.

Christ did not command us to marry and have children.

Why is it you keep coming back to the marriage thing, Johnny?

Oh, wait. I forgot.

You're Catholic.

Can you get over the fact that Mormons believe marriage is a sacrament and Catholics do not, and stick to the subject?

And by the way, Mormons believe that marriage is a sacrament that is made available to us only through the grace of Christ.

It is therefore not a work, but grace only.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[ERayR]

Anybody for nailing green jello to the wall.

[johnny]

captain-jack

So you believe you are saved by your work of accepting grace. For without accepting it, you cannot be saved.

Scripture is clear that believing is not a work, see Rom 11:6; Eph 2:8,9; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5,7

If you read the scriptures, eunuchs are excused, but it says nothing of those who are capable.

Read verse 12 it reveals those that have "made themselves enuchs ... he that is able to receive it, let him receive it", see below

• Matt.19 ([10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. [11] But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)
  

You skipped verse 10:

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband

Verses 10 applies to those are are called to marry,

• 1Cor.7 ([10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.)
  

If you read the scriptures carefully, it says that those who cannot have children, then it is ok if they don't marry. But for those who can it seems to me that it is commanded. In the Bible, or will it soon be that we don't believe in the same Bible?

If you read the scriptures carefully they speak also of not marry as a gift and calling of God, it pleases the Lord those who are called to be unmarried and care for the things of the Lord.

• 1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [38] So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better..)
  

The fruit of your labor/Your works. What is the difference?

Big difference .. it is the fruit of the spirit, it is not our labor, our works. If it was our works then we could boost. The other is the works of the flesh.

Then anyone can be saved in sin. If you do not repent, how can you be worthy?

Those who live ungodly and do evil all they way till the day they die are not saved.

Fine, I believe, I'm saved. Go home Johnny, you're done here. I'm saved, and so long as I don't stop believing Christ died for me, then I'm good. I can do whatever I want.

It is clear you do not understand grace, grace is not about doing whatever you want.

How is it not a work? I honestly think this whole "faith v works" is to some a "chicken v egg" debate. I think the faith comes first, by our own hand. Like you said, we choose that. But I don't understand how you can justify that position. How can belief/faith not be a work at all? What is it then?

It is not a work, again read Rom 11:6; Eph 2:8,9; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5,7 they reveal "not of works".

[johnny]

consiglieri

Why is it you keep coming back to the marriage thing, Johnny?

Because the Mormon Churches teaches that is the goal of every LDS, see below

• Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "If we are married by any authority other than by the priesthood in a temple, the marriage is for this life only. After death, the marriage partners have no claim on each other or on their children. . . . An eternal marriage should be the goal of every Latter-day Saint. . . . We will become gods."
  

Can you get over the fact that Mormons believe marriage is a sacrament and Catholics do not, and stick to the subject?

I cannot get over the fact the Mormon Churches teaches marriage is commanded and is essential to live with our heavenly Father, see below,

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation ... Exaltation is eternal life ..."
  

And by the way, Mormons believe that marriage is a sacrament that is made available to us only through the grace of Christ.

Mormons also believe marriage must be performed in a Mormon temple and before they can go into the Mormon temple they are asked questions like,

• Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"
  

[captain-jack]

Scripture is clear that believing is not a work, see Rom 11:6; Eph 2:8,9; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5,7

I read these, but it called a question to my mind.

If it is not a work to believe to get grace, why is it a work can lose salvation and acceptance of grace?

It is only works that effect it when losing salvation, but no work can be done to accept salvation (which is accepting grace)?

Read verse 12 it reveals those that have "made themselves enuchs ... he that is able to receive it, let him receive it", see below

• Matt.19 ([10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. [11] But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)
  

Verses 10 applies to those are are called to marry,

• 1Cor.7 ([10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.)
  

If you read the scriptures carefully they speak also of not marry as a gift and calling of God, it pleases the Lord those who are called to be unmarried and care for the things of the Lord.

• 1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [38] So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better..)
  

I find it odd that you keep skipping verses at times, and at others, there are times when it seems that the Lord would rather have no woman ever marry or lose virginity so that they can serve Him. For the time being, let's agree that we differ in views. Though it is not a sin to not be married, but I do believe that God created us in pairs for a reason, marriage is essential to not just procreation but to an Eternal Plan.

Big difference .. it is the fruit of the spirit, it is not our labor, our works. If it was our works then we could boost. The other is the works of the flesh.

So again you seem to draw a line at a point where we can do absolutely nothing for salvation, even choosing to believe is not a work. On the same note we are responsible for our damnation. Sounds like we got shafted on this deal.

Those who live ungodly and do evil all they way till the day they die are not saved.

So our works can damn us but there is no work to save us. I am confused then, why does God not move us all to accept salvation? If He can't, and it is up to us, then we have a conundrum.

Either we are responsible for our works, and our works are our way of accepting the grace. Or we are not responsible for anything at all, I don't see how there can be any middle ground.

I will acknowledge that it is the grace that saves us, not our works, but our works are responsible for accepting the grace.

It is clear you do not understand grace, grace is not about doing whatever you want.

If I can't do whatever I want, then I have to be responsible for my works...works that I use to accept the grace. I think I understand it fine, we are responsible for what we do. What we do are our works.

It is not a work, again read Rom 11:6; Eph 2:8,9; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5,7 they reveal "not of works".

The read that it is not works that save us, it is grace, I agree. However, I believe it is our works that accept the grace. You may not agree, but that is fine.

[busybee]

[qu

[johnny]

captain-jack

If it is not a work to believe to get grace, why is it a work can lose salvation and acceptance of grace?

Believing or not believing is not a work. Through the works of the flesh we can lose salvation and fall from grace.

It is only works that effect it when losing salvation, but no work can be done to accept salvation (which is accepting grace)?

It is works of the flesh that effect our salvation. Accepting salvation is believing in thine heart, with heart man believes unto righteousness.

I find it odd that you keep skipping verses at times, and at others, there are times when it seems that the Lord would rather have no woman ever marry or lose virginity so that they can serve Him. For the time being, let's agree that we differ in views. Though it is not a sin to not be married, but I do believe that God created us in pairs for a reason, marriage is essential to not just procreation but to an Eternal Plan.

If verses are not skipped then it becomes clear that both marriage and being unmarried come from the Lord. From these verses it is clear the marriage is not commanded. Being unmarried is also part of God's Eternal Plan because it please the Lord those unmarried and who care for the things of the Lord. Those who are married focus more on the things of the world instead of the things of the Lord.

So again you seem to draw a line at a point where we can do absolutely nothing for salvation, even choosing to believe is not a work. On the same note we are responsible for our damnation. Sounds like we got shafted on this deal.

Salvation is through faith, faith is not doing nothing. Believing is not a work, believing is of the heart. We have the choice to believe or not believe. If we do not believe we are damned. Sounds like grace is a great deal because from grace God works in us to do his will. Without the spirit we can do nothing, through faith we bring forth the fruit of the spirit.

So our works can damn us but there is no work to save us. I am confused then, why does God not move us all to accept salvation? If He can't, and it is up to us, then we have a conundrum.

Doing the works of the flesh can damn us. If being saved is our work then we could boast, but we cannot boast since it is grace. God wants us all to move to accept salvation, but he has given to the choice to accept or reject this salvation through belief.

Either we are responsible for our works, and our works are our way of accepting the grace. Or we are not responsible for anything at all, I don't see how there can be any middle ground.

We are responsible for believing or not believing. Those who believe bring forth the fruit of the spirit. Those who do not believe bring forth the works of the flesh. Our fruit shows our faith, we accept grace through faith, by believing.

I will acknowledge that it is the grace that saves us, not our works, but our works are responsible for accepting the grace.

We accept grace through faith. Our belief or our unbelief is shown by the fruit of the spirit or works of the flesh that manifest.

If I can't do whatever I want, then I have to be responsible for my works...works that I use to accept the grace. I think I understand it fine, we are responsible for what we do. What we do are our works.

You can do whatever you want, if you do evil then damnation, if you do good then salvation. Again you accept grace through faith.

The read that it is not works that save us, it is grace, I agree. However, I believe it is our works that accept the grace. You may not agree, but that is fine.

It is not through our works that we accept grace, is is by believing, see Romans 10 below:

• Rom.10 ([9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.)
  

[Tanyan]

captain-jack

Believing or not believing is not a work. Through the works of the flesh we can lose salvation and fall from grace.

It is works of the flesh that effect our salvation. Accepting salvation is believing in thine heart, with heart man believes unto righteousness.

If verses are not skipped then it becomes clear that both marriage and being unmarried come from the Lord. From these verses it is clear the marriage is not commanded. Being unmarried is also part of God's Eternal Plan because it please the Lord those unmarried and who care for the things of the Lord. Those who are married focus more on the things of the world instead of the things of the Lord.

Salvation is through faith, faith is not doing nothing. Believing is not a work, believing is of the heart. We have the choice to believe or not believe. If we do not believe we are damned. Sounds like grace is a great deal because from grace God works in us to do his will. Without the spirit we can do nothing, through faith we bring forth the fruit of the spirit.

Doing the works of the flesh can damn us. If being saved is our work then we could boast, but we cannot boast since it is grace. God wants us all to move to accept salvation, but he has given to the choice to accept or reject this salvation through belief.

We are responsible for believing or not believing. Those who believe bring forth the fruit of the spirit. Those who do not believe bring forth the works of the flesh. Our fruit shows our faith, we accept grace through faith, by believing.

We accept grace through faith. Our belief or our unbelief is shown by the fruit of the spirit or works of the flesh that manifest.

You can do whatever you want, if you do evil then damnation, if you do good then salvation. Again you accept grace through faith.

It is not through our works that we accept grace, is is by believing, see Romans 10 below:

• Rom.10 ([9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.)
  

Believing is a work of obedience that we must put forth - mental/physical effort we use to respond to the Gift of Faith we have been given to serve GOD and our fellow man.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

In His Debt/Grace,Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[urroner]

captain-jack

Believing or not believing is not a work. Through the works of the flesh we can lose salvation and fall from grace.

It is works of the flesh that effect our salvation. Accepting salvation is believing in thine heart, with heart man believes unto righteousness.

Can you define "works of the flesh?" How can "works of the flesh" affect our salvation? Can "works of the flesh" only undo our salvation? Can "works of the flesh" strengthen our salvation? Are "works of the flesh" only something that we can do? Is keeping the commandments "works of the flesh" and why or why not?

If I love my wife and want to do things for her because I love her, are these things "works of the flesh?" How about the same things for my children or my neighbors?

I realize that we're probably not going to get a satisfactory answer Johnny, but you keep throwing terms around that I don't know what you mean by them.

[johnny]

urroner

Can you define "works of the flesh?" How can "works of the flesh" affect our salvation? Can "works of the flesh" only undo our salvation? Can "works of the flesh" strengthen our salvation? Are "works of the flesh" only something that we can do? Is keeping the commandments "works of the flesh" and why or why not?

Gal 5 describe the works of the flesh (see below). Those who persist in the works of the flesh till their death will be damned. Works of the flesh can undo salvation if a person continues in them till their death. Works of the flesh is something you do. Keeping God's commandments are not works of the flesh.

• Gal.5 ( [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.)
  

If I love my wife and want to do things for her because I love her, are these things "works of the flesh?" How about the same things for my children or my neighbors?

No.

[busybee]

[interesting ... Mormon's do not believe their own 3rd article of faith.