Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 No. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace. If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.Regards,Six Bsix, I would as a LDS [JEDI KNIGHT] state it differently - ... "and we humans have to follow GOD's commandments to merit "staying in" that atoning grace. Which is just me looking a the Greek word for "Grace" which means an "Unmerited" gift/favor. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
johnny Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 BsixNo. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace.Then it appears you have been consistent in being non-consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals something different than what you are declaring.Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?
Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Again from a Catholic Christian responding to a Ev Christian- http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Obedience is conected Directly to Jesus Christs Grace - Hebrews 5:9.In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Grace is and can only be Accessed/Activated/and made Alive In,Through, and By, Faith [Pistis] which Gift [Faith] needs to be brought about by the individual so that the other Gift [Grace] can Save/Exhalt us.In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Trencher7 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Then it appears you have been consistent in being non-consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals something different than what you are declaring.Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?Johhny, you keep attacking a straw man. LDS do not believe mankind can be saved by his own works. You just keep throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you assume a Christian's good works combined with his faith under grace is the same as someone trying to obligate God to save him for his own "righteous works" alone. We are not saved by our own works of righteousness. We know.
Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Watch Johnny is going to ask us the same question again with maybe a slight variation. In His Debt/Grace Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
johnny Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Trencher7Johhny, you keep attacking a straw man. LDS do not believe mankind can be saved by his own works. You just keep throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you assume a Christian's good works combined with his faith under grace is the same as someone trying to obligate God to save him for his own "righteous works" alone.Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)
Trencher7 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 I think its interesting that there is such a division in the CoJCoLDS on what I would think is a very significant piece of doctrine. This rift seems to exist outside of discussion boards as well. My father-in-law and the local Branch Pres came by the house for a 'friendly' visit. The subject of grace and works came up and my father-in-law supported what I might call the standard position, that the GA's support. The BP fell more in line with Robinson, which IMO, falls more in line with my own evangelical perspective. It was very spirited discussion which ultimately led to us finding what we could in common on the topic and moving on.However, it would seem that those who adhere to this 'in spite of' interpretation are doing so of their own volition and would be placing themselves outside of doctrine on the point. Am I seeing that correctly? Or do you think its possible that the issue isn't relevant enough to matter in that regard?I think the valid question for the "all you can do" believers is who actually does "all he can do? And what is really meant by that?Origen said, "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from him." (Against Celcus bk 7. Chapter 42.)Man has to do "all that his powers will allow" before God will make Himself known to him? So what exactly is that?We are, as the BoM treaches, ultimately saved by grace-2 Nephi 10:24â??Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the cgrace of God that ye are saved.â?.The Book of Mormon teaches that "all that we can do" amounts to not so much."I say, if ye should serve him [God] with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."
DH Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 2 Nephi 25:23:From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.Fascinating. What I get from that verse is just the opposite of what the critics say. The way I read it, it is Christ's grace that saves us, no matter how many good works we have done, because our works are insufficient to save us.Maybe the critics need to eat more fish ("brain food") before trying to interpret scripture!DH
Trencher7 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Trencher7Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)Johnny, are you trying to say obedience isn't necessary for salvation? That Jesus is the author of eternal salvatiuon to those who do not obey him?
Tanyan Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Trencher7Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3) Told you so, see my last post above.
Flyonthewall Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 FlyonthewallYou are missing the point of James. We are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). We hear the word of God which says "love one another" and we do. We show are faith by our works of mercy (James 2:13-18). By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only (James 2:21-24). Faith without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). By adding virtues like mercy and charity to our faith we shall not be unfruitful (2Pet 1:3-8 ).I think you are reading something that is not there as far as "works of mercy" goes. It simply states that we will be judged with the same yardstick as we treat others. If we do not show mercy to others, then we will not be shown mercy. The works James talks about, are our own actions, whether we are inspired to do them or not. We must put the effort out to give life to our faith, and to do the work of the Lord because the Lord will never force us to do something we don't want to.James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, by doing the word of God his faith was made perfect, he was justified (James 2:21-26). Abraham was not justified by his works, if so then he would have reason to boast, Abraham was credited with righteousness because Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief, rather he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God, the promised inheritance is through the righteousness that comes from faith (Rom 4:2-25). verse 24 states that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" - seems to directly contradict what you just said the rest of the passage states.The spirit is what makes him ... with the spirit, the fruit of the spirit is produced ... without the spirit, the works of the flesh.Whether we do works of the spirit or works of the flesh, we must put the effort out, and when we put the effort out in the service of the Lord, the Lord will enable us to do more than we could by ourselves. Our efforts do not diminish what the Lord has done, and still does not give us cause to boast.
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Trencher7Johnny, are you trying to say obedience isn't necessary for salvation? That Jesus is the author of eternal salvatiuon to those who do not obey him?I am saying we are "by grace are ye saved through faith". We obey God's commandment because we love him.Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?
consiglieri Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 We obey God's commandment because we love him.Thank you for the concession, Johnny.Case closed.Unless you are trying to say that Mormons obey God's commandments because they hate him?Johnny said it.I believe it.That settles it.All the Best!--Consiglieri
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 consiglieriUnless you are trying to say that Mormons obey God's commandments because they hate him?Some obey God's commandments to be saved, the 3rd Mormon A/F says "all mankind may be saved, by obedience".
captain-jack Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I am saying we are "by grace are ye saved through faith". We obey God's commandment because we love him.Why add through faith? Why not simply just by grace? No one argues that we obey God's commandments for any other reason. But that obeying of commandments is all we can do.Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?I think God would rather see us married than living in sin. The marriage and children are part of the grand design, perpetuation. I don't believe that one will go to Hell for not following it.Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)Our faith is our obedience, which fits in nicely with what you stated above.Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?No. Now your turn.Do you believe that you are saved without having to do anything at all?Do you believe that you cannot lose said salvation through your own hand?Do you believe that you cannot gain said salvation unless you accept it? It may be there for you, but do you believe you have to choice to accept or deny it?
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 BsixBumping ...Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?
captain-jack Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 consiglieriSome obey God's commandments to be saved, the 3rd Mormon A/F says "all mankind may be saved, by obedience".I'm curious how you know this, do you see into the hearts of others? Or do they say this to you?
consiglieri Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?Do you believe in salvation without works ... in other words saved without obedience?Johnny,Why don't you just admit that Mormons and Catholics are similar on this issue and argue about the priesthood or something?All the Best!--Consiglieri
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Trencher7I am saying we are "by grace are ye saved through faith". We obey God's commandment because we love him.Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?Is marriage part of "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?You are avoiding the question. Are you saying someone who has faith but not works or obedience is saved?
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 BsixBumping ...Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?Faith [Pistis] is a work 1 Thess 1:3 .The "There" is the Thessalonian Faith [Not GOD'S] which was a Gift from GOD that they unwrapped and used [using there Free Agency to do] to Work for the LORD and to benifit the lives of others. There True Faith [Pistis] was the same as any True Saint/Christian as found in the N.T. Faith [Pistis] is an action word in the Greek from my understanding.In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 captain-jackWhy add through faith? Why not simply just by grace? No one argues that we obey God's commandments for any other reason. But that obeying of commandments is all we can do.Through faith we receive the grace. I think God would rather see us married than living in sin. The marriage and children are part of the grand design, perpetuation.Jesus and the apostle Paul would rather everyone walk as they are called, every man has his proper gift of God. Some are called to marry and some are not.I don't believe that one will go to Hell for not following it.The Mormon Church teaches marriage is essential for eternal life.Our faith is our obedience, which fits in nicely with what you stated above.Faith is about believing. No. Now your turn.You say you don't believe in "salvation by works" ... are you saying works are not part of salvation?you> Do you believe that you are saved without having to do anything at all?me> I believe we are saved through faith and grace.you> Do you believe that you cannot lose said salvation through your own hand?me> I believe we can loose our salvation.you> Do you believe that you cannot gain said salvation unless you accept it? It may be there for you, but do you believe you have to choice to accept or deny it?me> I believe we have a choice to believe or not believe.
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 captain-jackI'm curious how you know this, do you see into the hearts of others? Or do they say this to you?I assume Mormons believe what the Mormon Church teaches, the Mormon Churches "all mankind may be saved, by obedience" (A/F 3).
johnny Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 consiglieriDo you believe in salvation without works ... in other words saved without obedience?I believe we are saved by grace through faith. Those saved obey God's commandment because they love him not to be saved.
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