Misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23?

[coolrok7]

Un unchristian comment above was the truth ? , doing an end around eh ?.

tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

No, if you can't say what you really mean then maybe you shouldn't even think what you didn't write? Is that an apology? If it is then I accept it.

End around? Is that what you we're doing? I'm being rather direct here, don't you think?

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos

They might be sound LDS doctrine but they are not sound biblical doctrine, biblical doctrine is "by grace are ye saved through faith".

Faith and works of the flesh are incompatible. I believe we are not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done".

"Works of the flesh"? I did not use that term nor did I imply it. The term I used and meant was "good works" which was derived from, Ephesians 2:10. Clutching at straws are you? You keep building those straw men if in your mind that is a worthy activity of a good Christian.

That said, please pardon me if I grin too broadly but I do find it most humorous that yet once again you managed to forget that we are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â? That is the rest of the passage from Ephesians 2:8-10 which you just seem unable to utter or acknowledge. As noted above by the passage (Ephesians 2:10) this LDS doctrine is sound Biblical doctrine. Have I mentioned Ephesians 2:10 often enough yet that you are taking note of it?

While we are on the subject of sources of doctrine, I would just like to thank God that the Bible is not the only nor final revelation of God's will. (John 10:16)

I thank God that He is still the same (James 1:17) and that He loves the believers in these latter-days as much as He did those who lived in times of ancient past. (Romans 8:39)

I thank God that He is still active and that He continues to reveal His divine secrets to living prophets in these modern times. (Amos 3:7)

This brings great comfort to me but you stick with what brings comfort to you. We Latter-day Saints do not have a problem with that. (11th Article of Faith)

In the mean time, I will pray for you. It is my sincere hope, desire and prayer that in God's own due time, you, too, shall gain life eternal. (John 17:3)

[ERayR]

Why should I feel sorry about the truth. So what do you really think about me in light of the above apology to the moderaters? Be honest! Its not what I feel . It's the way it actually is as oppose to what you might feel. Feelings are subjective, truth isn't.

Where do I check my brain so that I can just accept what you say and not let anything get in the way.

[johnny]

ebeddoulos

That said, please pardon me if I grin too broadly but I do find it most humorous that yet once again you managed to forget that we are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â? That is the rest of the passage from Ephesians 2:8-10 which you just seem unable to utter or acknowledge.

What is your point ... I have no problem uttering "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â?

As noted above by the passage (Ephesians 2:10) this LDS doctrine is sound Biblical doctrine. Have I mentioned Ephesians 2:10 often enough yet that you are taking note of it?

Explain how Ephesians 2:10 supports the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do (saved, by obedience)" (2Nep 25:23; A/F #3)

Have I mentioned Ephesians 2:10 often enough yet that you are taking note of it?

I take note of it and it fits nicely with "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

While we are on the subject of sources of doctrine, I would just like to thank God that the Bible is not the only nor final revelation of God's will. (John 10:16)

I thank God that He is still the same (James 1:17) and that He loves the believers in these latter-days as much as He did those who lived in times of ancient past. (Romans 8:39)

I thank God that He is still active and that He continues to reveal His divine secrets to living prophets in these modern times. (Amos 3:7)

I would agree ... I am Catholic.

This brings great comfort to me but you stick with what brings comfort to you. We Latter-day Saints do not have a problem with that. (11th Article of Faith)

In the mean time, I will pray for you. It is my sincere hope, desire and prayer that in God's own due time, you, too, shall gain life eternal. (John 17:3)

Thank you for praying for me. I would suggest you pray that the Spirit of truth lead you to the truth. Jesus taught the truth that "there is one God; and there is none other but he". God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

[coolrok7]

. . .This brings great comfort to me but you stick with what brings comfort to you. We Latter-day Saints do not have a problem with that. (11th Article of Faith)In the mean time, I will pray for you. It is my sincere hope, desire and prayer that in God's own due time, you, too, shall gain life eternal. (John 17:3)

"Eternal life" is the gift not earned/merited/worked for as in Mormonism's exaltation teaching which is not Biblical. In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. 2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.3. We must receive the temple endowment.4. We must be married for time and eternity.In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

The Bible teaches otherwise:

Jesus said to him, â??Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â? And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)â??These things I have, written to you who believe in the, name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.â?? (1 John 5:13).You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Can I hear you say Mormonism has it wrong like they tell those not Mormon? Probably not

[coolrok7]

Where do I check my brain so that I can just accept what you say and not let anything get in the way.

You already have as a Mormon. You can check what I say against the Bible. You are not obligated to believe me unless what I'm telling what the bible says.

[Grothar]

You already have as a Mormon. You can check what I say against the Bible. You are not obligated to believe me unless what I'm telling what the bible says.

Nothing like a cheap shot to get us to like you eh?

Personally, I don't believe you're telling what the bible says. I believe you believe you're telling what the bible says, but I don't.

Grothar, takes his brain back

[Jeff K.]

"Eternal life" is the gift not earned/merited/worked for as in Mormonism's exaltation teaching which is not Biblical. In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:The Bible teaches otherwise:Can I hear you say Mormonism has it wrong like they tell those not Mormon? Probably not

It seems a bit confusing. But tell me. Is the ordinance of baptism a work or a grace?

[coolrok7]

Nothing like a cheap shot to get us to like you eh?

Personally, I don't believe you're telling what the bible says. I believe you believe you're telling what the bible says, but I don't.

Grothar, takes his brain back

If my motive was to get you to like me I would become a Mormon. I wouldn't mind if you liked me. Do you?

Not a cheap shot. It cost the Son of God much pain and suffering for us. I don't see Jospeh Smith dying of the cross as God "in the flesh" making the atonement by His shed blood. Yours is a cheap shot (where is your blood? (not that it can pay for your sin, let alone anyone elses sin).

Notice the following statement from the, â??WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRISTâ? pamphlet, under the section- Blood of Christ, it says:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâ??s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not â??mere beliefâ?):

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-

19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

So you're going to leave "Mormonism"? when you take your brain back? I hope so!

I don't believe what Joseph Says. I don't have any fear of that. I do have a healthy respect for God and His Word though.

[Tanyan]

"Eternal life" is the gift not earned/merited/worked for as in Mormonism's exaltation teaching which is not Biblical. In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:The Bible teaches otherwise:Can I hear you say Mormonism has it wrong like they tell those not Mormon? Probably not

Like some non LDS Christians that say Martin Luther and Lutheranism have it wrong.

Motes and Beams to you.

http://www..jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Re...sm/damnable.htm

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Teancum]

Let me see if I can lay it out from the Mormon point of view.

Faith in Jesus Christ is first. This is what activates the grace.

Repentance is next. Jesus has to be my Lord and I must ask His forgiveness.

This is the Grace part. The Grace is here. It is not of works.

Next yes Mormons believe one must be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

This is what activates the saving Covenant. Mormons are now justified. They are not sanctified. or perfected yet.

Now Mormons believe one must abide in Christ, stay in the saving covenant, and this is what Mormons mean when they say endure to the end. Mormons do believe one can fall from grace.

That is it. In Mormon belief one who does this is saved in the celestial kingdom of God.

If you want to see this in LDS canon go to D&C 20:1-32 and D&C 76.

So Johny old boy, what commandments do Mormons need to keep to be saved? Faith, repent, be Baptized and receive the Holy ghost and then live in the saving covenant.

Thing is this means different things for different people. And keeping the commandments is the sanctifying part. Some will keep some commandments better than others. Some will break some. But as long as they repent and stay in partnership with the perfect partner Jesus, they are in the saving grace of Christ.

Of course Mormons have other ordinances in the temple. I view these as more sanctification issues. One does not need these to be in the celestial kingdom but they do to receive the better rewards in that kingdom. Extra crowns if you will.

So being saved by grace after all we can so is simply a term that means after we are justified we need to abide in Christ the best we can. But there is not a list of one commandment or another. We do our best to keep them all knowing we never will and that grace stll brings us to Christ.

And of course without the grace keeping any commandments does us absolutely nothing.

After all is said and done, in both LDS dogma and historical Christianity grace and works are inextricably linked. You cannot separate them from one or the other. Bible versed can be used to emphasize one or the other but why do that? Most Christians I know say you are saved by grace as a result of faith. And the way you know that someone is saved is from the works that follow. If not good works follow then that person most likely is not saved. Well what they hey man! So works are important here. No they don't save you but if they ain't there then you are not saved? Really this is not all that different from what Mormons believe.

So there you have it.

[coolrok7]

It seems a bit confusing. But tell me. Is the ordinance of baptism a work or a grace?

Two sacraments instituted by Jesus Himself is both Baptism and the Sacramant as the means of grace (how God imparts to us His grace in a way we can relate to, have a physicalness tmajor o a spiritual blessing). Mormonism confuses a lot of things.

[coolrok7]

Like some non LDS Christians that say Martin Luther and Lutheranism have it wrong.

Motes and Beams to you.

http://www..jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Re...sm/damnable.htm

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I really don't care what you or others think in regards to what Martin Luther taught that were Biblical (even Jospeh Smith taught things that were Biblical and I can accept that, although I don't accept him in the line of Biblical prophets, Muhammad as well. He has a worldwide following along with a supposed another "Holy Book" as well).

Motes and beams, is that loving those you do no agree with (are those the ones in your eyes by the way?)?

Something wrong with your eyes? They always seem to be rolling

[johnny]

Teancum

That is it. In Mormon belief one who does this is saved in the celestial kingdom of God

I glad to hear you don't think a person has to obey the Mormon commandment of marriage to live with our heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom.

So Johny old boy, what commandments do Mormons need to keep to be saved? Faith, repent, be Baptized and receive the Holy ghost and then live in the saving covenant.

It is good hear that you do not think the following Mormon commandments are not really commandments:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

So being saved by grace after all we can so is simply a term that means after we are justified we need to abide in Christ the best we can. But there is not a list of one commandment or another. We do our best to keep them all knowing we never will and that grace stll brings us to Christ.

Why then does the 3rd A/F state,

• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  

After all is said and done, in both LDS dogma and historical Christianity grace and works are inextricably linked.

Historical Christianity is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

So there you have it.

It seems you differ with the teachings of the Mormon Church when it comes to commandments ...

[Trencher7]

Johnny, why do you have a problem with obedience?

"Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared; Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV)

[Tanyan]

I really don't care what you or others think in regards to what Martin Luther taught that were Biblical (even Jospeh Smith taught things that were Biblical and I can accept that, although I don't accept him in the line of Biblical prophets, Muhammad as well. He has a worldwide following along with a supposed another "Holy Book" as well).

Motes and beams, is that loving those you do no agree with (are those the ones in your eyes by the way?)?

Something wrong with your eyes? They always seem to be rolling

Well, we can say we really don't care what you or others think in regards to what Joseph Smith Jr taught that were Biblical [Martin Luther taught things that were Biblical and I can accept that, although I Don't accept him as a true teacher to interpet the Biblical Prophtets and Apostles. Martin Luther anf other Reformation Reformers have a world wide following as with other of there teachings.

Just trying to get you to look in the mirror, still lovin ya. NO. Nothing wrong with my eyes they are saddened by your posts, looking straight ahead.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Grothar]

Teancum

I glad to hear you don't think a person has to obey the Mormon commandment of marriage to live with our heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom.

It is good hear that you do not think the following Mormon commandments are not really commandments:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

Why then does the 3rd A/F state,

• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  

Historical Christianity is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

It seems you differ with the teachings of the Mormon Church when it comes to commandments ...

Johnny I believe he's including these commandments in the final step

Grothar, clears things up

[coolrok7]

Well, we can say we really don't care what you or others think in regards to what Joseph Smith Jr taught that were Biblical [Martin Luther taught things that were Biblical and I can accept that, although I Don't accept him as a true teacher to interpet the Biblical Prophtets and Apostles. Martin Luther anf other Reformation Reformers have a world wide following as with other of there teachings.

Just trying to get you to look in the mirror, still lovin ya. NO. Nothing wrong with my eyes they are saddened by your posts, looking straight ahead.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I know you can say anything, believe anything you want. I know what I look like in a mirror. Your eyes are deceived by a lying false prophet. I'm telling you this in light of the false doctrine you've expressed to me since I've known you. Your comments are not in line with Biblical doctrine at certain important points. I've eloborated on them here and elsewhere.We are commanded to "speak the truth in love". The Biblical standard I try to live up to.

[Tanyan]

I know you can say anything, believe anything you want. I know what I look like in a mirror. Your eyes are deceived by a lying false prophet. I'm telling you this in light of the false doctrine you've expressed to me since I've known you. Your comments are not in line with Biblical doctrine at certain important points. I've eloborated on them here and elsewhere.We are commanded to "speak the truth in love". The Biblical standard I try to live up to.

I know that you like to respond to everything LDS with any way you want. I also know what I look at when I look inthe mirror as well. My eyes are not decieved but truth proclaimed by a True Prophet of GOD. Your last comment about Joseph Smith may get you banned for awhile. I have proclaimed true doctrine to you since I have known you. My comments are in line with Biblical doctrine on Biblical points. And we have responded in speaking the truth in love to you, So be as it may I hope you are having a blesses night.

In His DEbt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[johnny]

Trencher7

Johnny, why do you have a problem with obedience?

I have no problem with obedience ... what is your point?

[Grothar]

Johnny, I would address your use of 2 Nephi 25:23 and one of our Articles of Faith together.

Just because we believe two things, does not mean that we believe what can be construed from sticking parts of our scriptures together.

Grothar, puts his two cents in

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

The doing shows a person's faith, is not faith only. Abraham was not justified on the basis of his works, if he was then he has reason to boast. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. It depends on faith, so that it may be a gift. Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God (Rom 4:2-20).

Abraham put his faith into action by DOING as he was told by the Lord. Notice what the Lord says after He tells Abraham to not lay a hand on him:

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

It was not Abraham's belief, but his obedience that that demonstrated his faith. Abraham's belief was not enough for the Lord, his faith had to be tested. Faith without works is dead. Faith is not complete without works. How can faith be sufficient without works to demonstrate it, if without the works, it is dead.

Paul, in Romans, is referring to the works of the Law of Moses. Notice Paul is speaking of the House of Israel, and how the gentiles are grafted in. He is describing how the Law of Moses, with its works and rites, are not what save, it is the law of grace that was preached by Christ. The Jews have no reason to boast because of their works, and gentiles have no reason to boast now that they are grafted in and partaking of the blessing promised to the House of Israel, and they should not think they are any better than the branches of the House of Israel that were broken off(see verse 18 - 21).

As I understand you, you seem to be saying: "Give me my salvation, and I will show you my works"(works being a fruit of salvation)

Whereas I say: "I will demonstrate my faith through my works so that grace may be extended"(faith without works is dead)

If faith is dead without works, how then works be a fruit of salvation? That means that salvation comes through dead faith.

[Jeff K.]

Two sacraments instituted by Jesus Himself is both Baptism and the Sacramant as the means of grace (how God imparts to us His grace in a way we can relate to, have a physicalness tmajor o a spiritual blessing). Mormonism confuses a lot of things.

In your confusion you may have answered your own question and hopefully understood. Marriage is indeed a means of grace in how imparts HIs grace to us in a way we can relate to. A blessing or boon if you will given to man.

Remember you asked:

Eternal life" is the gift not earned/merited/worked for as in Mormonism's exaltation teaching which is not Biblical. In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:The Bible teaches otherwise:Can I hear you say Mormonism has it wrong like they tell those not Mormon? Probably not

I imagine a great number of people rejected the earlier prophets and Christ because they thought what he said was not "biblical"

[Trencher7]

Trencher7

I have no problem with obedience ... what is your point?

What part does our obedience play in salvation then?

[Teancum]

I glad to hear you don't think a person has to obey the Mormon commandment of marriage to live with our heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom.

I don't and I think that is a defensible position based on LDS scripture. However, to reach the highest reward in that kingdom, based on LDS scripture, one must be married.

It is good hear that you do not think the following Mormon commandments are not really commandments:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  

I do think those are commandments. Just like thou shalt not steal, love God with all your heart, love your neighbor. I just don't think that if a justified Latter-day Saint, based on the Mormon doctrine I provided, fails to do these things, that they will be shut out of heaven. But that is true of any commandment one stumbles with and then repents. And some repentance my take a long time. Directional discipleship is what counts.

Why then does the 3rd A/F state,

• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  

The laws and ordinances are stated in the next article, number 4. I think this has been explained to you already. You seem to disagree with this explanation. But that is your problem. Not mine or any other LDS.

Historical Christianity is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works".

There is a lot of errors in historical Christianity. And LDS really don't judge the correctness of their doctrine based on historic Christianity. In other words, we do not give a rip.

However, the LDS doctrine I explained works quite well with this passage as well as other passages about grace, works, the falsehood of eternal security (see Hebrews 10) and so on.

It seems you differ with the teachings of the Mormon Church when it comes to commandments ...

Not really. I do differ from your forced interpretation of LDS sotierology.

However, I am sure you will continue to force false interpretation on LDS doctrine.