Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Calm]

Speaking of Jello (Mormons are famous for jello) you can throw it but it doesn't stick!

Oh yes it does if you wait long enough. One of jello's main components which equates to major stickiness in semiliquid form.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

This is an LDS beleif

Is it a LDS belief that salvation can also be damnation?

If so, I would disagree because all who are saved receive the salvation of their soul and will live with their heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom.

I also said that that was just one usage of the term "saved". All other uses do in fact require something of us.

If you can could you please provide some Biblical scripture your different usages of "saved".

For me a person is either saved or damned.

So I can believe in the commandments but not obey them and still be "saved" with the full reward of the Father's presence?

Those who believe and do not bear fruit are like the seed sown on rocky ground, they hear and receive the word but they have no roots. At the end of the age they are not in the Father's presence, they are cast in to the lake of fire with Satan.

Here is something else you misunderstand...before getting to the Telestial Kingdom, liars etc., they will have already gone through hell. They will spend time there paying the price of their unrepentent sins. They will not get to their kingdom, before their stint in hell is done.

Your understanding appears to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches, it teaches liars are in Telestial Kingdom, see below:

Gospel Principles Chapter 46

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-58,00.html

• "At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: .. Celestial ... become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple ... will live with Heavenly Father... Terrestrial ... received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant ... Telestial ... did not receive the gospel ... they who are liars ... Outer Darkness ... they denied the Holy Spirit ... They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. "
  

Only sons of perdition will remain in outer darkness, or hell, after their resurrection and judgement.

After the final judgment, the unbelieving and all liars are ALSO cast in the lake of fire with the devil, see below:

• Rev.21 ([8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.)
  
• -
  
• Rev.20 ([10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)
  

[johnny]

urroner

BTW, get it up Johnny, you almost had me convince of something earlier today.

Why should I give up the Biblical doctrine that we are saved by grace through faith in all that Jesus has done for the contrary Mormon doctrine that we are saved by grace after all WE can do?

[urroner]

Well, I get up this morning and before I go out and help a friend fix the CV joints on his car, I decided to take a quick look to see if anybody has offered a better definition of "works," and much to my utter amazement, nobody has. Johnny is off on a rabbit trail, attempting to derail the thread because he doesn't have anything to offer and Billy has kind of, again, told me that I'm wrong and what the definition isn't. Well, to tell you all the truth, I wasn't surprised in the slightest. How can they define something when they know that by laying down a definition, then they have some sort of a commitment, a standard to compare what they believe to be the truth, and they know that what they believe to be the truth will fail by that definition. It's kind of like attempting to define what a Christian is by only using biblical reference in a way to exclude us LDSers and still include all other mainstreamers in. Can't be done. Now if they could use extra-biblical info they could, but not with strict biblical reference.

So, I wonder if when I return this afternoon if an EVer or an RCCer will have made a valiant attempt to refine my definition of "works" without telling me what it isn't or why I, as a Mormon, am on the highway to Hell. You all know the old saying, hope springs eternal.

[urroner]

urroner

Why should I give up the Biblical doctrine that we are saved by grace through faith in all that Jesus has done for the contrary Mormon doctrine that we are saved by grace after all WE can do?

Johnny, ponder and pray about the following:

[charity's child]

Those who believe and do not bear fruit are like the seed sown on rocky ground, they hear and receive the word but they have no roots. At the end of the age they are not in the Father's presence, they are cast in to the lake of fire with Satan.

He just said it folks! Works are required for salvation!

[johnny]

urroner

...offered a better definition of "works,"...

I offer the definition found in the lexicon (see below), let the discussion begin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

[johnny]

charity's child

He just said it folks! Works are required for salvation!

Are you familiar with the parable of the sower?

The parable of the sower reveals that those who hear and understand the word bear fruit.

Those who do not understand the word bring forth the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the Spirit.

God works in us to do his will. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Is it a LDS belief that salvation can also be damnation?

Salvation without exhaltation is damnation. I thought you just cited that, and now you don't remember?

If so, I would disagree because all who are saved receive the salvation of their soul and will live with their heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom.

If you can could you please provide some Biblical scripture your different usages of "saved".

You are still trying to place your understanding of heaven/hell over the top of LDS understanding. It doesn't fit.

For Biblical reference, how about: John 14:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:39 - 42

For me a person is either saved or damned.

Only two types of people in the world...Jesus' and Judas'? No in-between?

Those who believe and do not bear fruit are like the seed sown on rocky ground, they hear and receive the word but they have no roots. At the end of the age they are not in the Father's presence, they are cast in to the lake of fire with Satan.

Careful there, Johnny, you are awfully close to stating salvation requires something on our part besides belief or faith...

Your understanding appears to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches, it teaches liars are in Telestial Kingdom, see below:

Gospel Principles Chapter 46

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-58,00.html

• "At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: .. Celestial ... become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple ... will live with Heavenly Father... Terrestrial ... received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant ... Telestial ... did not receive the gospel ... they who are liars ... Outer Darkness ... they denied the Holy Spirit ... They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. "
  

My understanding conflicts only with you perceived understanding of mormon teachings.

After the final judgment, the unbelieving and all liars are ALSO cast in the lake of fire with the devil, see below:

• Rev.21 ([8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.)
  

• 
  

• Rev.20 ([10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)
  

Yes, all those bound for the Telestial kingdom, will have their part in the "lake of fire and brimstone", but that will be between the time of death and resurrection and judgement. Neither of the scriptures you cite conflict with that. I know they ocnflict with your understanding, but not mine.

[charity's child]

charity's child

Are you familiar with the parable of the sower?

The parable of the sower reveals that those who hear and understand the word bear fruit.

Those who do not understand the word bring forth the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the Spirit.

God works in us to do his will. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

But what you said is exactly what we teach. Grace saves us. By our works we show ourselves to be true recipients of the gift. Without those works we have never truly accepted this incredible act on our behalf. We have to work, forever labor in the vineyard because it shows our love for God and the work itself recreates us in His image. Without that work, we pay lip service only to him.

Works are necessary for salvation because they show who we are, sons and daughters of God recreating ourselves in His image in eternal gratitude for the deed we could never have done for ourselves.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Salvation without exhaltation is damnation. I thought you just cited that, and now you don't remember?

I remember but I still am not clear on your usage when I compare your words with the Bible.

What is need to be exalted ... I am still trying to understand what you mean?

For Biblical reference, how about: John 14:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:39 - 42

John 14:2 - Many mansions are not different kingdoms.

1 Corinthians 15:39 - 42 - Different glories are not different kingdoms, the different glories occur before the Last Judgment.

Only two types of people in the world...Jesus' and Judas'? No in-between?

At the last judgment there are only two kinds of people.

My understanding conflicts only with you perceived understanding of mormon teachings.

Explain to me how my understanding conflicts with what the Mormon Church teaches.

Yes, all those bound for the Telestial kingdom, will have their part in the "lake of fire and brimstone", but that will be between the time of death and resurrection and judgement. Neither of the scriptures you cite conflict with that. I know they ocnflict with your understanding, but not mine.

The scriptures I cited occur after the millenium, after the second coming, after the Final Judgment. According to the Gospel Principles the Telestial kingdom is AFTER the Final Judgment. Again your understanding conflicts with what the Mormon Church teaches.

[Billy]

But what you said is exactly what we teach. Grace saves us.

So can you go to the Celestial Kingdom if you do not pay your tithing, or keep the Word of Wisdom?

[consiglieri]

charity's child

Are you familiar with the parable of the sower?

The parable of the sower reveals that those who hear and understand the word bear fruit.

Those who do not understand the word bring forth the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the Spirit.

God works in us to do his will. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

Hi, Johnny!

Though I do not often find myself in agreement with you, everything you have said in this post is good Book of Mormon doctrine.

When should I schedule your baptism?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

charity's child

But what you said is exactly what we teach. Grace saves us. By our works we show ourselves to be true recipients of the gift. Without those works we have never truly accepted this incredible act on our behalf. We have to work, forever labor in the vineyard because it shows our love for God and the work itself recreates us in His image. Without that work, we pay lip service only to him.

You say "Grace saves us", yet ....

Mormon scripture says grace saves AFTER "after all we can do".

The Mormon A/F says "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel".

The Mormon Gospel Principles says "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father"

I say to make the atonement fully effective we receive the free gift of righteousness through faith.

[johnny]

consiglieri

Though I do not often find myself in agreement with you, everything you have said in this post is good Book of Mormon doctrine.

Where did I say grace saves AFTER "after all we can do" like the Book of Mormon?

When should I schedule your baptism?

When the Mormon church teaches the Biblical doctrine of "by grace are ye saved through faith ... not works" and when it start to teach a Jesus that is not contrary to the Jesus the Bible reveals.

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

Where did I say grace saves AFTER "after all we can do" like the Book of Mormon?

When the Mormon church teaches the Biblical doctrine of "by grace are ye saved through faith ... not works" and when it start to teach a Jesus that is not contrary to the Jesus the Bible reveals.

Cool!

We have an opening Saturday at noon.

Who would you like to give the opening prayer?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. You know, it is a bit disconcerting to hear an avowed Catholic talk like a Protestant, but there you have it.

[johnny]

consiglieri

P.S. You know, it is a bit disconcerting to hear an avowed Catholic talk like a Protestant, but there you have it.

What is is more disconcerting is to hear Mormons believe that the Mormon doctrine that we are saved by grace after all WE can do is the same as the Biblical doctrine we are saved by grace through faith in all that Jesus has done.

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

What is is more disconcerting is to hear Mormons believe that the Mormon doctrine that we are saved by grace after all WE can do is the same as the Biblical doctrine we are saved by grace through faith in all that Jesus has done.

I don't know about that.

I think it's a toss-up.

Does the Pope know you are spouting Luther's line?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

consiglieri

I don't know about that.

I think it's a toss-up.

Thanks for making my point ...

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

Thanks for making my point ...

Care to respond to my point about your Lutheran brand of Catholicism?

[johnny]

consiglieri

Care to respond to my point about your Lutheran brand of Catholicism?

It appears you are not familiar with the teachings of the Catholicism, the teachings of the Catholicism are based on the Bible.

[consiglieri]

consiglieri

It appears you are not familiar with the teachings of the Catholicism, the teachings of the Catholicism are based on the Bible.

I have just started a new thread so that you more fully explain how it is that a Catholic such as yourself subscribes to Luther more than the Pope.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

consiglieri

I have just started a new thread so that you more fully explain how it is that a Catholic such as yourself subscribes to Luther more than the Pope.

I responded at the following thread:

Lutheran Brand of Catholicism

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...entry1208566453

[Tanyan]

Darn late to another Grace/Works discussion ! , . Johnny read the entire context of of 2 Nephi 25:23 [ Starting with 2 Nephi 25:1-30 to understand the interpetation of what is happening at that time period [ A Text without context is a pretext]. What is the "All that we can do" according to the context ?.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Repost just in case Johnny and any other critic did not read/see this above .

[Tanyan]

So what is the "all we can do" according to context in the BofM ?.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.