Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[coolrok7]

So what is the "all we can do" according to context in the BofM ?.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

The problem with being an "LDS JEDI KNIGHT" is that you are siding with the eastern mindset that is the basis for their being a good/dark side to the force (the belief of the maker of the Star Wars movies who tends toward Buddhism/eastern philosophy which is incompatible with Christianity).

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)

Why you insist on tryng to justify it as well as Mormonism which is not becoming of a "Christian" as you claim to be.

Somehow these words don't ring true with the Bible:

God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you donâ??t like it, you must lump it. (History of the Church, Joseph Smith, Vol. 6:319-20)

Every intelligent person under the heavens that does not, when informed, acknowledge that Joseph Smith Jr. is a Prophet of God, is in darkness, and is opposed to us and to Jesus and his kingdom on the earth. (Journal of Discourses, 8:223, Brigham Young)

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its placeâ??a religion that professed to be Jesus Christâ??s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, â??having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.â?. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiahâ??s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

"After all we can do" is not a Biblical teaching Tanyan! No matter how many times you declare it is. It is referred in Mormonism as "exaltation to godhood". Not "salvation by grace through faith" as is taught by Paul in Ephesians:

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)

LDS General Authority Milton R. Hunter in his book, â??The Gospel Through The Ages,â? had this to say concerning the Bible (additional comments by others):

In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (p.91)

We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1)

The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188)

Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46)

Works are a product of having true faith in Jesus as the Savior. They are not what gets ones sins paid for, which is the blood of Jesus. The atonemnt.

[Zakuska]

The problem with being an "LDS JEDI KNIGHT" is that you are siding with the eastern mindset that is the basis for their being a good/dark side to the force (the belief of the maker of the Star Wars movies who tends toward Buddhism/eastern philosophy which is incompatible with Christianity).

And yet Wise Madgi came from the East to worship the new born King. Some accounts Have Jesus and Paul in India.

Whats up with that?

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)

And yet Paul taught works.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we don't do the good works that we where forordained to do then we arnt doing "all we can do" and grace means nothing.

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

I remember but I still am not clear on your usage when I compare your words with the Bible.

Damnation, using the definition of cessation of progression, can be applied to all rewards outside of the Celestial Kingdom. Though the kingdoms of glory are not the "lake of fire and brimstone", neither are they the fullness of what God has to offer.

What is need to be exalted ... I am still trying to understand what you mean?

To be exalted, one must obey the teachings of Christ. Obedience, which includes our efforts to actually live the teachings, not just believe in them, to be doers of the word.

John 14:2 - Many mansions are not different kingdoms.

Then what are they? There will be many places to dwell, this tells me that not everyone will be in the same house.

1 Corinthians 15:39 - 42 - Different glories are not different kingdoms, the different glories occur before the Last Judgment.

Different glories indeed do refer to the different kingdoms. The different glories occur after the last judgement.

This verse is referiing to the many different types of people there will be in the resurrection - as they lived here on earth, so shall they be resurrected.

At the last judgment there are only two kinds of people.

And what exactly are those two types of people? 1 Corinthians just said that there will be many types of people even as one star differs from another.

The glories we receive after our resurrection will be predicated upon our works here on earth.

Explain to me how my understanding conflicts with what the Mormon Church teaches.

All sins that are unrepented of, will be answered for by those that commited them, in hell. When those sins are answered for, then the individuals will come into their kingdom. In the end, every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and this will happen before the final judgment. Sons of Perdition will reside in this hell or outer darkness with the devil and his minions as their final judgment.

The scriptures I cited occur after the millenium, after the second coming, after the Final Judgment.

Rev 21:8, does not say it occurs after the final judgment, it only says that it will occur. LDS believe that all those type of people will have their part in hell, just like it says, and yes, hell or outer darkness, is the second death when applied on a permanent basis.

Rev 20:10 states that the devil was cast into the lake. All those found in the book of life will be in one of the kingdoms of glory, and those not found in the book of life will be subject to the second death, which is Outer Darkness, on a permanent basis.

According to the Gospel Principles the Telestial kingdom is AFTER the Final Judgment. Again your understanding conflicts with what the Mormon Church teaches.

My understanding falls in line with the LDS church, it is your understanding of LDS teachings that is not correct or complete.

I've given you a link about LDS usages and definitions of Salvation, did you have a chance to read through it? Make sure you look under the "Additional Information" section.

It covers: Salvation from physical death, Salvation from Sin, being Born Again, Salvation from ignorance, Salvation from Second Death, and Eternal Life or Exaltation. Each one is a little different than the next, so it is a very messy situation when you try to equate traditional christianity's "saved", which is a dichotomy, with the LDS concepts of being "saved".

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Damnation, using the definition of cessation of progression, can be applied to all rewards outside of the Celestial Kingdom. Though the kingdoms of glory are not the "lake of fire and brimstone", neither are they the fullness of what God has to offer.

Do know of bible scriptures that support "the definition of cessation of progression"?

To be exalted, one must obey the teachings of Christ. Obedience, which includes our efforts to actually live the teachings, not just believe in them, to be doers of the word.

Must you obey the Mormon commandment of marriage to be exalted?

For me the Mormon command of marriage is not a teaching of Christ.

Then what are they? There will be many places to dwell, this tells me that not everyone will be in the same house.

They are places to dwell ... a different house is not a different kingdom.

Different glories indeed do refer to the different kingdoms. The different glories occur after the last judgement. This verse is referiing to the many different types of people there will be in the resurrection - as they lived here on earth, so shall they be resurrected.

Different glories simply refer to different glories, for example on earth their are individuals with different glories but they are not in different kingdoms.

And what exactly are those two types of people? 1 Corinthians just said that there will be many types of people even as one star differs from another.

The glories we receive after our resurrection will be predicated upon our works here on earth.

After the Last Judgment their are two, the cursed who go into everlasting punishment and the blessed who go into life eternal. That section of 1 Corinthians is describing the people before the Last Judgment.

Rev 21:8, does not say it occurs after the final judgment, it only says that it will occur. LDS believe that all those type of people will have their part in hell, just like it says, and yes, hell or outer darkness, is the second death when applied on a permanent basis.

Rev 20:10 states that the devil was cast into the lake. All those found in the book of life will be in one of the kingdoms of glory, and those not found in the book of life will be subject to the second death, which is Outer Darkness, on a permanent basis.

Rev 21:8 occurs after Rev 20:11 which indicates the final judgment.

My understanding falls in line with the LDS church, it is your understanding of LDS teachings that is not correct or complete.

Now I understand what you are saying ... thanks.

<edited my last comment>

[Grothar]

let me use small words, then maybe you'll understand.

The liars will first go to spirit prison a.k.a. the fiery place with no band-aids.

Then after that God will do a final judgement and then they will be sent to the Telestial kingdom. Unless of course they repented while in spirit prison.

That's how it freakin falls in line.

Grothar, really doesn't like you

[coolrok7]

And yet Wise Madgi came from the East to worship the new born King. Some accounts Have Jesus and Paul in India.

Whats up with that?

And yet Paul taught works.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we don't do the good works that we where forordained to do then we arnt doing "all we can do" and grace means nothing.

We don't deny good works but they are not what saves us. The blood of Jesus does. "After all we can do" is not in the Bible.

Comparing the maji with George Lucas is not the same. The maji were led to the manger by following God's directing them. George Lucas will not lead you to Jesus but away from Him to Eastern philosophy wnich Paul says in light of what I said to Tanyan:

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. (2 Corinthians 10:4-6)

[Zakuska]

For me the Mormon command of marriage is not a teaching of Christ.

Huh?

Matt 19

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What was the purpose God made them male and female?

That would be to fuffill the command to... "Multiply and Replensih the earth"... and that was the purpose for a man to leave his father and mother.

You're pre-concieved notions are clouding your reading Johny.

How much more explicit can Jesus get on his teaching of marriage and the command to Multiply and Replenish?

Well did the Apostles Prophecy of you Johnny...

Matt 19

10

[Grothar]

mmmf...mmmmf.... Bwahahahahahahaha!

Coolrok you make it sound like Tanyan is following George Lucas as a prophet. Forgive if I'm wrong but I think it's just an interesting title he's using.

Ans as for your "not in the bible" refrain. I'm pretty sure we Mormons don't believe all truth is in the bible. There is definnetly a lot of it there but if everything was in there we wouldn't really need the BoM. (please correct me if I'm wrong) So your point is pretty much invalidated on our side of the court. You are perfectly free to remain unpersuaded by it but that won't change our position.

Grothar, is teary-eyed from laughing.

[Zakuska]

We don't deny good works but they are not what saves us.

Who ever said they were?

The blood of Jesus does.

Faith Alone saved no one.

"After all we can do" is not in the Bible.

Faith alone saved no one.

[Flyonthewall]

"After all we can do" is not a Biblical teaching Tanyan! No matter how many times you declare it is. It is referred in Mormonism as "exaltation to godhood".

Oh but it is a Biblical concept that has be glossed over and ignored:

James 1

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this manâ??s religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Not "salvation by grace through faith" as is taught by Paul in Ephesians:

We declare salvation comes by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is inseparably conncected with works as James has described. Take works away from faith and all you have is a dead husk.

Works are a product of having true faith in Jesus as the Savior.

As we teach.

They are not what gets ones sins paid for, which is the blood of Jesus. The atonemnt.

Are your sins forgiven if you do not repent of them? If you have no sorrow and do not seek forgiveness, are your sins forgiven? If so, then why did John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the apostles, and all biblical prophets preach repentence? If we need not repent(a work) to obtain forgiveness, by what are we judged? Why worry about sins then, if they are forgiven without any effort on our part?

We agree, that it is not our repentance that forgives sins, it is the atonement of Christ that enables us to be forgiven, but God and all His messengers have taught us that we must repent of our sins and be DOERS of the word.

[shalamabobbi]

Those who believe and do not bear fruit are like the seed sown on rocky ground, they hear and receive the word but they have no roots. At the end of the age they are not in the Father's presence, they are cast in to the lake of fire with Satan.

Sounds like an admission that works are required to be saved to me..

Are you familiar with the parable of the sower?

The parable of the sower reveals that those who hear and understand the word bear fruit.

Those who do not understand the word bring forth the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the Spirit.

God works in us to do his will. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

So I can believe in the commandments but not obey them and still be "saved" with the full reward of the Father's presence?

Those who believe and do not bear fruit are like the seed sown on rocky ground, they hear and receive the word but they have no roots. At the end of the age they are not in the Father's presence, they are cast in to the lake of fire with Satan.

Works do not save yet failure to bring forth works damn..

I think you must have studied quantum physics..

The distinction falls below Heisenberg's uncertainty principle..

[johnny]

bumped for urroner,

earlier I posted:

I offer the definition for "works" found in the lexicon (see below), let the discussion begin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

[LifeOnaPlate]

Odd to see a Catholic talking about salvation by grace alone apart from, say, sacraments.

[urroner]

Odd to see a Catholic talking about salvation by grace alone apart from, say, sacraments.

Is this the new Catholic motto, "Sacraments, we don't need no stinking sacraments." How long ago was it when it was believed in both the Catholic and Protestant worlds that baptism was necessary for salvation?

[Billy]

Is this the new Catholic motto, "Sacraments, we don't need no stinking sacraments." How long ago was it when it was believed in both the Catholic and Protestant worlds that baptism was necessary for salvation?

I am trying to see the point that you are making on this thread, maybe you could help us out here.

It seems to me that you are trying to get the mainstream Christians to say that belief is a work, therefore since belief is a work, then this makes someone who believes in a lengthy list of works justified in doing all of those works for salvation/exaltation. Is this one of the main points of this thread?

[Zakuska]

I am trying to see the point that you are making on this thread, maybe you could help us out here.

It seems to me that you are trying to get the mainstream Christians to say that belief is a work, therefore since belief is a work, then this makes someone who believes in a lengthy list of works is justified in doing all of those works for salvation/exaltation. Is this one of the main points of this thread?

Why wouldn't a mainstream Christian beleive what their Bible clearly says?

John 6

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Faith is the first and most fundamental principles of the Gospel. It's one of the "first works" we must do.

Rev. 2: 5

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[shalamabobbi]

who was it that said this again?..

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

So it isn't a list, it's simply all we got. You may have more than me, but that doesn't matter, as long as it is all you have - offered in return..

[Billy]

Why wouldn't a mainstream Christian beleive what their Bible clearly says?

John 6

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I agree with John 6, that is why I quoted it in multiple posts on this thread yesterday.

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What are the works that God wants you to do? believe on him

[Zakuska]

I agree with John 6, that is why I quoted it in multiple posts on this thread yesterday.

What are the works that God wants you to do? believe on him

Do you beleive him Billy?

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Apparently not.... you're content to let him do it all. To suffer under that yoke... he pleaded with his father to remove from him.

[Billy]

Do you beleive him Billy?

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Apparently not.... you're content to let him do it all. To suffer under that yoke... he pleaded with his father to remove from him.

You pulled the quote out of context. This section of scripture does not say anything about salvation.

11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

[urroner]

I am trying to see the point that you are making on this thread, maybe you could help us out here. It seems to me that you are trying to get the mainstream Christians to say that belief is a work, therefore since belief is a work, then this makes someone who believes in a lengthy list of works is justified in doing all of those works for salvation/exaltation. Is this one of the main points of this thread?

johnny quoted a bible dictionary for works, but the thread has wandered all over the place since then and before I was able to join in the fracas, that I was looking for a good place to jump in.

Works, by my definition, means "something that we or another have to do by our or their own volition and is not done by God." If God does part of X and we do part of X on our volition, then the part of X that we do, I consider to be works, by my definition.

For example, God gives us a free gift, this is not works, it's grace. We accept the free gift, that is works, by my own definition. Of course, if God forces us to accept the free gift, then it's not works because we didn't do it with our own volition, we were forced to do so. If we reject that free gift on our own volition, then that rejection becomes part of our works.

Christ said "if you love me, keep my commandments." Person A says he loves Christ and doesn't keep his commandments because it's not necessary. He voluntarily doesn't keep the commandments so that is his works. Person B say he loves Christ and keeps his commandments voluntarily, so this is his works. Did God force either to keep or not keep the commandments?

I even asked several friends who are Evangelical, I have a few, I live in the South, to give me a good definition for "works" and interestingly, they couldn't come up with one. They told me that they had never really thought about it. Billy, don't you find that interesting?

I then gave them my definition and they said that it sounded good, but some of them commented that that definition had a few problems with it, but they didn't know how to fix it and these are Evangelicals who are very educated and know the Bible very well. Billy, maybe you can help.

What are the works that God wants you to do? believe on him

So believing on him is works. Good catch there Billy. I wouldn't have noticed that.

You pulled the quote out of context. This section of scripture does not say anything about salvation.14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Sounds like works to me. It's something that I have to do with my own volition or do you believe that God will force us to ask Him?

[johnny]

bumped for urroner,

earlier I posted:

I offer the definition of works found in the lexicon (see below), let the discussion begin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

[Zakuska]

You pulled the quote out of context. This section of scripture does not say anything about salvation.

11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Pulled it out of Context? How?

Remember its you Billy who equivocates "Salvation" with "Beleif". So the verse is Directly speaking of salvation in your world. It could just as easily read...

"He who is 'being saved' will do the works that I do because I go unto the father"

It point blanks says that he who "beleives" (aka is being saved) will do the works Christ has shown him how to do.

As CS Lewis would says... No matter how hard the protestant tries to cut with one blade of the pair of scissors... Faith Grace and Works can never be seperarted. Because they are all necessary parts of the equation.

[urroner]

bumped for urroner,

earlier I posted:

I offer the definition of works found in the lexicon (see below), let the discussion begin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So which of these definitions fits your concept of works the best?

[johnny]

urroner

So which of these definitions fits your concept of works the best?

Take your pick since you are the engineer in need of a definition ...