Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Tanyan]

Paul condemned works under a faithless system of obligation. He stressed that we can never obligate God to save us though our own efforts.

Rom. 4:4: "To the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace but according to obligation"

"Works of law" refers to "works done solely under legal contract" which demand payment for performance, regardless of whether or not the person doing the work believes in and loves his benefactor.

God does not want that kind of employee/employer relationship with man. In Rom 5:1 he tells us we "access" grace through faith, but Paul does not teach that faith should be alone. As we know he said it is even better to have charity than to have faith.

[Billy]

Paul condemned works under a faithless system of obligation. He stressed that we can never obligate God to save us though our own efforts.

Rom. 4:4: "To the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace but according to obligation"

"Works of law" refers to "works done solely under legal contract" which demand payment for performance, regardless of whether or not the person doing the work believes in and loves his benefactor.

God does not want that kind of employee/employer relationship with man. In Rom 5:1 he tells us we "access" grace through faith, but Paul does not teach that faith should be alone. As we know he said it is even better to have charity than to have faith.

So works ARE required for Celestial living? Correct? Like you said in a previous post below.

That works without faith will do nothing for us. Works + faith justify the individual through God's grace. God grants grace to those with faith and works.

[Zakuska]

Justification of individuals through works plus faith is not biblical doctrine.

Justification- A one time instantaneous act of God where God declares an individual to be just or in right standing before Him.

If this where true then James and Paul where lying, and there is no need for a "Christian" walk. No way for the seed to take root and then be choacked out by the cares of the world or plucked away by the birds and briars. No means of Growing.

Paul speaks of being Justified by Christ IN YOUR SINS before knowing God, James speaks of being Justified as some one who Knows God. Some one who knows God is justified by their faith filled works.

[Billy]

Some one who knows God is justified by their faith filled works.

So you are JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?

How many works do you need to do to be justified?

[Zakuska]

So you are JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?

How many works do you need to do to be justified?

I and you as beleivers?.... A life time... To he who much is given... much is expected. Some thirty, Some Sixty, Some an hundred. God will be the judge at how much loot each of our works merit.

"Well done my good and faithfull servant". or...

The moment I as a beleiver quit obeying Gods commandments... is the moment the briars choak the seed out of me that God planted.

You must be pretty uncomfortable with what James has to say about Justification of a beleiver...

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Only a perfect Faith Merits a perfect Reward.

And lest you wrest James 2 from its context... James is speaking of being Justified before God for we read the setup for Chapter 2 in the last verse of Chapter 1...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Works are what Justify us before God and the Father... plain and simple.

[Tanyan]

I and you as beleivers?.... A life time... To he who much is given... much is expected. Some thirty, Some Sixty, Some an hundred. God will be the judge at how much loot each of our works merit.

The moment I as a beleiver quit obeying Gods commandments... is the moment the briars choak the seed out of me that God planted.

You must be pretty uncomfortable with what James has say about Justification of a beleiver...

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Only a perfect Faith Merits a perfect Reward.

Awesome !, Only a Perfect [Complete] Faith Merits a [Complete] Reward.

[Billy]

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 4

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

. . .so faith without works is dead also.

In this statement, WHAT is dead?

The answer is FAITH IS DEAD. This simply illustrates that without fruit in your life your faith is dead.

Works are what Justify us before God and the Father... plain and simple.

You have given us the LDS take on faith verses works in a simple easy to read sentence.

[Zakuska]

Romans 4

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"Ungodly" is the key word there Billy. Is an "Ungoldy person" a beleiver? NO they are not.

Verse 2 that you highlighted drives the point even closer to home. "but not before God"

You and I as beleivers are Justified in a different way than Chi the rice farmer who has never heard the name Jesus Christ.

We have become the seed of Abraham (aka the Godly, or if you'd prefer, Children of God through Adoption) and as beleivers we are Justified as James describes. Faith, Grace AND works.

Thats why Paul says this...

Eph 2

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice how he makes the distinction of us being "uncrimcumcised" (aka UNGODLY)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

But now we have become one with him.

Like I said you have a very unconfortable relationship trying to reconcile what Paul said with what James said. In LDS theology they don't contradict because we understand which group of People each is talking to and about. We don't have to rob James to feed Paul... "the least of the Apostles.

Works are required for beleivers to remain in good standing before God.

[Tanyan]

We are Justified [Declared Not Guilty] by works [ That Keep us Saved in that Covenant of Grace that we entered into when we accepted Jesus Christ as our LORD OF LIFE/LORD/SAVIOUR/GOD/KING/MASTER and that are Born out of a True and Living Faith [Pistis] in and through The Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ and a Everlasting Love and appriciation for what Jesus Christ has done for us.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[coolrok7]

Does God want unbelievers to have to work to understand the gospel or does He not want them to understand the gospel? I thought that that was against biblical doctrine?

Anything we do as human beings is not sufficient to pay for the debt of our sin. Having been put under bondage/curse of the law we have only two options, to follow Jesus and the way He says or the human, unregenerate way, trying to obey a set of laws that we can never live in perfection:

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:11-15)

At the beginning of human life, after the fall, we all have inherited a sinful nature passed on to us through genetics from human parents (descended from Adam and Eve). It is in this sense of having to work by the sweat of our brows (which has nothing to do with how God saves us):

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:17-19)

Paul refers to this in the book of Romans and Galatians:

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Romans 8:18-25)

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:5-14)

We donâ??t work for salvation (we work it out, not for, or put into practice our salvation which is already a given, it is a gift which is eternal life (a gift). Our good works are wrought in Christ and are the result of being responsive to God and His Word by grace through faith, not by works:

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

His Word convicts us of our sin (if we are rebellious in not responding it is a choice we make due to unbelief on our part), His righteousness, and the coming judgment (through the Holy Spirit which convicts our heart for the need to repent) we donâ??t do any work in this regard, our works follow from our faith, a gift of God as well which is part of our sanctification not our justification (we respond to the stimuli, the preaching or reading of His Word:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

You guys are always importing the Mormon understanding derived from Joseph Smith and reading the Bible in that light which is actually darkness in the form of an â??angel of lightâ? in which it is stated that Satan did/still does in regards to blinding the minds of them that still believe the lie, even after having been confronted by the truth of Godâ??s Word:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

God doesnâ??t want anyone to not make it but He will not force salvation on anyone that doesnâ??t want to respond to His message. This is where Mormonism like so many other isms fail to comprehend the distinction between grace/works/salvation and how it comes about:

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.(Revelation 3:20)

[Tanyan]

An exact quote also from Bruce R. McConkie at a BYU devotional spaeking as an "apostle" to Church members while misrepresenting the Protestant view of God and Salavtion:

Until the Mormon Church (Christian heretical movement) retracts the statement then it hangs on all the Church as representing Mormonism telling lies about what others officially teach in our own literature. Especially when they say the following:

Salvation is only resurrection in Mormonism which you have ignored. In Biblical Salvation The blood of Jesus is only applied to those who are His and those who met the condition of faith without actually hearing about Jesus (Romans 2) in the resurrection where Jesus says:

Mormonism teaches:

The Biblical teaching is that eternal life is the gift that is given in response to faith, which is not merited/earned/worked for as in Mormon exltation.

If you deny this, I believe your Bishop should have a talk with you:

You can never pay the debt by your works which equals Mormon exaltation. Especially when the atonement, the blood Jesus shed on the cross, is expressed in this way in a MORMON PROSELYTIZING PAMPHLET:

Paul teaches in the book of Romans (check the context):

I wonder why Christians believe this way? Could it be that is what the Bible teaches, that salvation is the gift, even eternal life? A Mormon would say, "of course not". I provided the quotes already that illustrate this.

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not "mere belief"):

Tanyan, lest you misunderstand me in which you always seem to do by my reading what you say and even listening to you in person), you are entitled to your view that orthodox Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are in agreement with how you state your views. It is not a valid "Christian" position to recast Mormon orthodoxy as the equivalent to Christianity. The two don't go togeter without distorting either view.

As I stated earlier, Mormonism redefines the terminology, uses the form of the word with a different meaning assigned to the term than is normally used/understood.

I understand how Christians, not Mormons, present their views as Christian while using the story as told by Gearge Lucas who has a definite eastern world view which is NOT CHRISTIAN. If a Christian explains it in a Christian world view context while using some of the motifs such as good and evil, thats fine with me. But to use the dark/good side of the force as an LDS JEDI KNIGHT is not compatible with the God of Scripture, the Bible. On that point I do believe you have misconstreud the Biblical understanding of God and attempt to couch it in Mormon terminology which is not ok but is heretical.

For instance Bruce R. Mcconkie statement concerning heresy from his persepective as a Mormon General Authority:

As compared to both Peter and Paul's statement on heresy:

I'll stick with Biblical apostles not those who follow the foosteps a a false prophet who meets the Biblical standard of what a false prophet does as spelled out in the Old as well as the New Testament:

I do care what you think because I perceive that you have twisted the Bible to your own destruction as well as all other Mormons have done as well if you don't have a change of doctrine. I say that with no animosity except for what I perceive to be false doctrine. It is not directed at you as a person but as one like everyone else, mercy from a just and loving God. He cannot lower one below the other. He gives us what we don't deserve in light of not getting we we actually deserve as sinful beings:

So at the judgment he will say to some, "come inherit the kingdom prepared" and to some depart from me, you that work iniquity into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. There is no in between state of existence after judgment day. One is either a sheep or a goat. You use Christian terminology for specific Mormon doctrine which is not found in the Bible which means it is not Biblical.

The actual teaching needs to be in the Bible, not necessarily the term used to annunciate the doctrine (such as the Trinitarian understanding of the nature of God not gods. Also Theocracy as in the Old Testament God ruling over the nation of Israel with prophets he would send to the people when they were in disobedience to His stated will for them as a nation called out of the world to bring to pass His salvation for the entire world. This for all those who will listen and respond to His Good News as it is in Jesus!

I Just saw this reply coolrok7, I have busy the last couple of days, I will get back to this in the near future as time allows. In the meantime if any of my LDS JEDI KNIGHT comrads wish to respond to coolrok my Lutheran Synod critic friend please feel free to respond and share.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[urroner]

Coolrok, one of the problems between LDSers, RCCers, and EVers, is that we use the same words, but with different meanings, so you can quote apostles and prophets and think they are saying one thing, but they are really saying something else and we understand what they are saying, but we don't understand the point you are trying to make since you understand it differently.

I have had people, former EVers, who have joined the Church and some who left the Church to become EVers, and they can see the wide rift between us, not a wide rift as in doctrine as often as it is a wide rift in terminology. I agree there is plenty of doctrinal differences, but the biggest problem is we have a habit of talking past each other.

For instance, I believe that works are simply anything that we have to do for our salvation that Christ or God doesn't do for us. So, for me, accepting Christ is something I have to do and so I consider it a work. Now, you probably don't consider it to fall under your definition of work and that's no problem. As long as each of us knows what the other means by "works."

If I have to have faith, I consider that works, since it's something I do. If I keep the commandments, it's works for me, even if I do it out of love for Christ and Heavenly Father since it's something I have to do.

Of course, if God and Christ are forcing me to do any of the above, then it's not works.

So, with my definition, if I have to love Christ to be saved, there are works involved. Of course, there is grace involved in it also since without the Atonement, salvation would be impossible, no matte how many good works I have.

The key part of my salvation is grace, but by my definition of "works," so are works.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So you are JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?

How many works do you need to do to be justified?

How many works do I need to have to show that I have been saved? Cant you come up with something better than this Billy? If works are a product of salvation as you claim, then how many works do I need to do to show God that I have been saved?

[Billy]

How many works do I need to have to show that I have been saved? Cant you come up with something better than this Billy? If works are a product of salvation as you claim, then how many works do I need to do to show God that I have been saved?

It depends on how you answer this question

I am asking you if it is possible for a man who is about to die to accept Christ as his Savior and without further works and ordinances go to the Celestial Kingdom.

If you believe--like I do--that someone can accept Christ just prior to death and go to heaven, then the answer to your question is ZERO. But YOU probably believe--like most LDS--that you need additional works in addition to your saving faith to be able to live with God the Father again.

The question that you are asking, which I have answered many time before, is the difference between justification by faith verses ongoing sanctification. A true believer WILL show fruit (or works) in his or her life and as a result will become more and more perfected through his life by the process of sanctification. This is what James is speaking about that true faith has works and dead faith has no works. The works or fruit in no way contribute to whether or not that person lives with God again, but are a result of that person ALREADY being saved and having the Holy Spirit working in his life.

[johnny]

urroner

For instance, I believe that works are simply anything that we have to do for our salvation that Christ or God doesn't do for us.

I would consider those "works of righteousness which we have done". We are not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done", we are saved according to God's mercy and God's grace.

So, for me, accepting Christ is something I have to do and so I consider it a work.

Accepting Christ is a choice, we can believe or not believe. Belief is of the heart, believing is not a work.

If I have to have faith, I consider that works, since it's something I do.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, faith is believing in God and believing what he has said. Our doing shows our faith, by doing our faith is perfected.

If I keep the commandments, it's works for me, even if I do it out of love for Christ and Heavenly Father since it's something I have to do.

By doing God's commandment to love one another, it is God working in us to do his will. Without the spirit we can do nothing, through faith we bring forth the fruit of the spirit. Faith without the spirit is dead.

[Tanyan]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

[urroner]

urroner

Accepting Christ is a choice, we can believe or not believe. Belief is of the heart, believing is not a work.

Keeping the commandments, doing the Sacraments, loving God and my neighbors are all choices. I can do any of them or not do any of them. Loving God and my neighbors are of the heart, therefore, are you saying that none of them are works?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, faith is believing in God and believing what he has said. Our doing shows our faith, by doing our faith is perfected.

By doing God's commandment to love one another, it is God working in us to do his will. Without the spirit we can do nothing, through faith we bring forth the fruit of the spirit. Faith without the spirit is dead.

Faith without works is dead. Many EVers consider keeping the commandments works and therefore not necessary. Do you agree with this paradigm?

Is keeping commandments necessary for our salvation?

[Tanyan]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html .

[urroner]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html .

I like this part here:

Here there is truth mixed in with error. Yes, Jesus lived a truly perfect and righteous life that pleased the Father. No problem. Those who are children of God are adopted into the family of God. No problem. Jesus is just and the justifier. No problem. However, mixed in there are some unbiblical notions.

1) That Jesus was punished by God himself. No. God did not punish Jesus. That was Satan's job. As we saw in Proverbs 17:15, not only does God not justify the ungodly but the other part of that verse must be looked at:

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

It is an abomination to God to condemn the righteous. Jesus was perfectly righteous. But he was not condemned by God, and not punished for sins that were transferred from us to him. Jesus was sinless. It was not a trade of our sins to Jesus and Jesus' perfect righteousness goes to us. Jesus was a sin offering for us. He was an expiatory, cleansing sin offering. Through his death his purpose is to 'redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds' as we have seen in Titus 2:14. The purpose was not to cover over our sins, even though our own righteousness amounts to only 'filthy rags', but to make us righteous, so we can meet the righteous requirement of the law of the Spirit (Rom. 5:19, 8:4).

2. That Christ's righteousness was imputed to us. He gave absolutely no passages in Scripture which say that Christ's righteousness was imputed to our account. Both in the above, and in his whole 52 page writing, he gave us no passages which show that Christ's righteousness was imputed to our account. He starts off with the premise, which is false, that our righteousness can only be filthy rags, and just somehow thinks that Scripture teaches that Christ's righteousness must be imputed to our account. In fact, that is an undervaluing of Christ's work on the cross. His work was sufficient not merely to cover, but truly cleanse us from unrighteousness. We have seen this in many Scriptures. In fact the reason why he doesn't give us any passages that say that Christ's righteousness gets imputed to our account, is because there is nowhere any passage that teach us that. I have shown that throughout the above.

3. That faith alone is the only instrument of salvation. He says good works inspired by faith can never be any of the grounds of justification. He has not shown that at all. In fact the only time faith alone is expressed in Scripture is when it is explicitly repudiated as the sole means of justification. I have in fact shown throughout many passages which show other things as being instruments of salvation, including works done in grace. Here are some more such passages to close this section out:

James 2:20-26 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Romans 2:6-13 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Matthew 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

These passages explicitly contradict the assertion that works are never any of the grounds of justification. In James, Dwayne's proposition is explicitly repudiated, and works are shown to have justified Abraham. James explicitly writes this several times, and also shows that Rahab was justified by works. Paul says that only the doers of the law will be justified. Jesus shows that those who went to heaven went there because of the good works that they performed. And he said that they would inherit the kingdom, based on those good works.

[johnny]

urroner

Keeping the commandments, doing the Sacraments, loving God and my neighbors are all choices. I can do any of them or not do any of them. Loving God and my neighbors are of the heart, therefore, are you saying that none of them are works?

Doing good is God working in you.

Faith without works is dead. Many EVers consider keeping the commandments works and therefore not necessary. Do you agree with this paradigm?

Keeping the commandments is God working in you, it is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith without the spirit is dead.

Is keeping commandments necessary for our salvation?

Believing is necessary for salvation. We keep God's commandments because we love God not to be saved.

[Tanyan]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html .

Repost.

[urroner]

We can agree that justification is vital to salvation, but is sanctification necessary for salvation?Do we play any role in our sanctification? Does keeping the commandments play any part of it?

urronerDoing good is God working in you.Keeping the commandments is God working in you, it is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith without the spirit is dead.Believing is necessary for salvation. We keep God's commandments because we love God not to be saved.

When you say "God is working in you," are you saying that God forces us to do good or that He just encourages us to do good and we do it on our own volition?

[johnny]

urroner

We can agree that justification is vital to salvation, but is sanctification necessary for salvation?Do we play any role in our sanctification? Does keeping the commandments play any part of it?

Sanctification is of the spirit. Keeping the command to love one another is a part of it.

When you say "God is working in you," are you saying that God forces us to do good or that He just encourages us to do good and we do it on our own volition?

God does not force you to do good. Through faith, he empowers you, he does the work.

[Tanyan]

If it is the work of GOD to empower us I do not have a problem with that thou we need to use that power.

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Billy]

If it is the work of GOD to empower us I do not have a problem with that thou we need to use that power.

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Note the Amplified Bible's take on this verse.

Philippians 2:13[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.