Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 revelation, What is your thoughts on the above article referenced ?. Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Faith and grace are both gifts from God:Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of GodAbraham had the freedom to NOT believe what God had told him.Which is the gift, Grace or Faith ?, notice it says "it" not "they" = Gift of GOD.Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Is there any single verse in the Bible that says "saved by faith only" or something that unmistakably says that?Every passage that speaks of faith without mention of works is unmistakably faith alone. We just use the word "alone" to emphasize the meaning of the passages.But here is one passage where we have only TWO options. We are saved 100% by grace alone or 100% by works alone: There is no middle LDS ground mentioned.Romans 11:5-7 "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. "The teaching that you are justified by faith and works Falls under the "works" category. So I would say that if you believe you are justified by faith and works, then you are no longer justified by grace. It's one or the other. Not a mixture of the two.
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 A non LDS Christian view of this topic - http://www.bible.ca/g-faith-only.htm In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT. Repost.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 So you are saying that he chose to have faith, it was something he did.Faith was given to him, it enabled him to believe. But he still had the option to choose not to believe.revelation, What is your thoughts on the above article referenced ?. Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.I just printed it up and am going to go and read it as soon as I catch up with the posts here. Will be back later to let you know my thoughts.
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Charis [Grace] Alone "Through" Pistis [Faith] Alone. Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
coolrok7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Charis [Grace] Alone "Through" Pistis [Faith] Alone. Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Mormonism doesn't teach that Tanyan. O ye of little true faith, "LDS JEDI KNIGHT"
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Mormonism doesn't teach that Tanyan. O ye of little true faith, "LDS JEDI KNIGHT" Oh yes it does my Lutheran Missouri Synod Sith Lord apprentace .You see but you see not. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
CherishedVirtue Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Maybe I am being too simple, but I don't even see how this is a fight. Salvation is a great thing... but if you love your Lord/Savior/God wouldn't you do everything you could for Him because you love him? All in all works is something that should come naturally, I would think, in ALL religions. The fact that we're arguing it like this is a little insane.Therefore, whether its required or not is sorta unnecessary. Because we're all always working anyway. Required or not for salvation becomes a mute point when all parties are working for their savior.
coolrok7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Oh yes it does my Lutheran Missouri Synod Sith Lord apprentace .You see but you see not. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Speak for yourself Tanyan. I object to the "Sith Lord apprentice" comment. Ye from the dark and light side of the force which is not Biblical Christianity.
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Urroner, no I don't believe that you believe you can be saved only by good works. And with that I agree! Nobody can be saved only by works. But what you don't understand about our beliefs is that even if you say you are justified by faith and works, then this also is being saved by good works from our perspective(not your perspective). In our beliefs, if grace only comes to those who are justified by "faith and works" then the "faith and works" are the cause of grace and therefore this is salvation by works also because grace doesn't come to those who believe they are justified by faith and works. But we believe that we are either saved entirely by grace(the only way) or entirely by works(impossible for us), there is no middle ground wherein you might think you are standing.When we say: "entirely by grace" that means we are justified by grace through faith alone. "faith and works" falls into the salvation by works category.God gives his grace to those with faith and good works. Ultimately it is grace that saves us, but God chooses to give grace to those with faith and works. Notice, as you said, James was already talking to believers about needing works with their faith. Why? Because if they only had "faith alone" it would not save them. Good works do not come automatically to those with faith (even though we should be more inclined to have them). James had to keep stressing they needed to combine their faith with good works to be justified in the same way Abraham was.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 revelation, What is your thoughts on the above article referenced ?. Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Here are some thoughts:The article gives a wonderful definition of faith. It defines it as trust! I agree 100%The article gives the greek rendering for the "second believeth" by referencing Strongs #545 as meaning "disobedient" My Strong defintion is as follows:545-Adjective from the priv. a (1)withoutand peitho (3982); to persuade in negative. Unwilling to be persuaded, ubelieving, disobedientSynonym: Desobedient, hard, not pliable.So the meaning of the verse in John 3:36 is as follows:John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever is unwilling to be persuaded are disobedient and they reject the Son and will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him"Persuaded of what? The answer is they are unwilling to be persuaded that they are saved by faith alone and not by works. They are unwilling to be persuaded to trust in Jesus and to believe that in him we have been justified before God by faith in his work on our behalf alone. They are disobedient because they don't trust in Jesus, they trust in themselves. They trust they are justified by faith and works which is a denial of Jesus as Lord and Savior. If we are justified by faith and works, we are our own savior! The verse the article references teaches that he who believeth not (that is: those who do not believe they are justified by faith in Jesus alone) shall not see life. The verse the article references says: " He that believeth on the son HATH everlasting life " You are justified by faith and works, you cannot believe you have everlasting life because you must first live your life doing works in order to be justified. So you cannot say right now: "I Have everlasting life" You can only say: "I will get everlasting life if I believe and do good works"I on the other hand can say: "I have everlasting life" That is because I don't believe I am justified before God by faith and works.We are saved by faith alone. We who have been justified before GOD by faith alone, will go on to do good works wherein we will be justified before MEN as James explains. Faith without works is dead. But those works don't justify us before God. Jesus justifies us before God.
coolrok7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 God gives his grace to those with faith and good works. Ultimately it is grace that saves us, but God chooses to give grace to those with faith and works. Notice, as you said, James was already talking to believers about needing works with their faith. Why? Because if they only had "faith alone" it would not save them. Good works do not come automatically to those with faith (even though we should be more inclined to have them). James had to keep stressing they needed to combine their faith with good works to be justified in the same way Abraham was.Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works" as a Biblical apostle testifies to. Not so-called apostles referred to in the book of Revelation:â??These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: â??I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, (Revelation 2:1, 2)Good works are the fruit of one who has true faith of Biblical import. Not a made up version of other so-called "Scripture" which teaches that the "gift of eternal life" is to be earned/merited/worked for and teach that slavation is only resurrection.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 God gives his grace to those with faith and good works. Ultimately it is grace that saves us, but God chooses to give grace to those with faith and works. Notice, as you said, James was already talking to believers about needing works with their faith. Why? Because if they only had "faith alone" it would not save them. Good works do not come automatically to those with faith (even though we should be more inclined to have them). James had to keep stressing they needed to combine their faith with good works to be justified in the same way Abraham was.What does grace mean to you?If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace.
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works" as a Biblical apostle testifies to. Not so-called apostles referred to in the book of Revelation:Good works are the fruit of one who has true faith of Biblical import. Not a made up version of other so-called "Scripture" which teaches that the "gift of eternal life" is to be earned/merited/worked for and teach that slavation is only resurrection. Once again Charis through True Pistis. Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works" as a Biblical apostle testifies to. Not so-called apostles referred to in the book of Revelation:Good works are the fruit of one who has true faith of Biblical import. Not a made up version of other so-called "Scripture" which teaches that the "gift of eternal life" is to be earned/merited/worked for and teach that slavation is only resurrection.Faith is faith. What's the difference between faith and "true faith"? Good works exist outside of faith. Paul said it is better to have charity than to have faith. Faith does not already include charity. Those believers with faith alone will not be saved as James was inspired to reveal to us. That still does not equate to man working his way to heaven under a law of works that Paul was preaching against.
Tanyan Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 What does grace mean to you?If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace. Grace is unmerited favor, a free gift. It must be accepted, opened up and used according to the instructions. But to keep the free gift is conditional on how you act with the free gift. Work of Faith. In His DEbt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
CherishedVirtue Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 for clarification because Im a noobie to this stuff, wouldn't being saved by grace alone imply that I could be a real careless jerk, and still be saved? I would never have to lift a finger for my faith, never have to help another, or even bother with being kind? Just accept that my scriptures are true, that jesus died for me and I'm saved?
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Repost.From your article:A person is saved by the blood of Christ, through the grace of God. He is not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments of Christ.The LDS people always claim they are not saved by works and here in this statement is clearly says you are saved by works(Obedience to the commandments of Christ). It's a contradiction. How do you not see that as a contradiction?The Bible teaches faith alone here:Ephesians 2:7-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? not by works, so that no one can boast."Notice in this verse two things. First, "you have been saved" is past tense, not future tense as in "you will be saved by grace"Second, we are saved by grace and not by works which contradicts what your article says: "He is not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments (works).An LDS person simply cannot say: "for it is by grace you have been saved" they must say: "For it will be by grace you are saved after your works so that everyone must boast"
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 What does grace mean to you?If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace.Why would you try and quantify works yet not faith?
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Why would you try and quantify works yet not faith?What do you mean, can you clarify?
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 From your article:The LDS people always claim they are not saved by works and here in this statement is clearly says you are saved by works(Obedience to the commandments of Christ). It's a contradiction. How do you not see that as a contradiction?The Bible teaches faith alone here:Ephesians 2:7-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? not by works, so that no one can boast."Notice in this verse two things. First, "you have been saved" is past tense, not future tense as in "you will be saved by grace"Second, we are saved by grace and not by works which contradicts what your article says: "He is not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments (works).An LDS person simply cannot say: "for it is by grace you have been saved" they must say: "For it will be by grace you are saved after your works so that everyone must boast"I have not yet read the article, but there is no contradiction because it is still by God's grace that we are ultimately saved. He does not have to save anyone. He chooses to save those who have faith in him and live a life that is pleasing unto him. We could never obligate God to do this or think that our works would earn us exaltation. As long as you keep equating Paul's criticism of the Jewish "works of the law" with good works done as a faithful believer, this conversation will be an endless loop.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 for clarification because Im a noobie to this stuff, wouldn't being saved by grace alone imply that I could be a real careless jerk, and still be saved? I would never have to lift a finger for my faith, never have to help another, or even bother with being kind? Just accept that my scriptures are true, that jesus died for me and I'm saved?Great question. Being saved by grace alone is so profound a message of God's love for us that it leads us to love God in return. We cannot help it. Love does that to you. Love for God will then express itself in obedience to Jesus commands. While at times we may be a "careless jerk" while we are saved, God's unconditional love for us leads us to be sorry for our carelessness and confess our sins because we know that in Jesus, all our sins have been forgiven.
revelation Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I have not yet read the article, but there is no contradiction because it is still by God's grace that we are ultimately saved. He does not have to save anyone. He chooses to save those who have faith in him and live a life that is pleasing unto him. We could never obligate God to do this or think that our works would earn us exaltation. As long as you keep equating Paul's criticism of the Jewish "works of the law" with good works done as a faithful believer, this conversation will be an endless loop.But the article says you are saved by obedience to the commandments of Jesus. It shouldn't say that then. I still don't see how its not a contradiction. Your either saved by grace or by odedience to the commandments. The article clearly states that obedience is what saves you.
Trencher7 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Great question. Being saved by grace alone is so profound a message of God's love for us that it leads us to love God in return. We cannot help it. Love does that to you. Love for God will then express itself in obedience to Jesus commands. While at times we may be a "careless jerk" while we are saved, God's unconditional love for us leads us to be sorry for our carelessness and confess our sins because we know that in Jesus, all our sins have been forgiven.Why do we have to confess? Sounds like you are adding works. Can't you boast about your confessing once it gets you into heaven?
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