Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Billy]

Maybe you haven't forgotten everything you learned in Primary.

This is certainly not creedal Christian doctrine. I have heard too many times to count that those who do not accept Jesus while in this life are condemned to hell, irrespective of their opportunity to actually hear of Him.

What you have proclaimed is LDS doctrine.

Lehi

You may be right on this point, I will have to ask around and see if I am alone on this belief. I am sure that I carry around with me things that I learned as an LDS member, whether they are correct or incorrect.

[Hoops22]

Maybe you haven't forgotten everything you learned in Primary.

This is certainly not creedal Christian doctrine. I have heard too many times to count that those who do not accept Jesus while in this life are condemned to hell, irrespective of their opportunity to actually hear of Him.

What you have proclaimed is LDS doctrine.

Lehi

Which is why it is incorrect.

[Hoops22]

you are stating as fact that we believe something, something we have told you we don't believe, but you continue to do so, nothing like lying for Jesus

Not very nice is it? So, Billy aside, why do you persist in doing the exact same thing?

[Tanyan]

For Billy [i Love that name !] and Hoops http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/salvationps.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[shalamabobbi]

Bottom line it is either by faith alone OR by works to some extent. Because these are mutually exclusive ideas, they both can't be true, either one is true or the other is true (or a third possibility that they are both not true).

Faith and works are not mutually exclusive ideas. All action is based on faith. Every scientific theory put forth was put forth prior to the existence of proof. It was faith in the theory that motivated to action to obtain the evidence/proof that the theory was true.

Likewise in any successful business enterprise, before it is a success it is pursued in faith that success is possible.

If an athlete believes they can compete in the olympics and win a metal it is faith that is the basis of that endeavor and the cause behind eventual success.

Faith has no meaning without the work that carries it to fruition, otherwise it is mere daydreaming.

[Tanyan]

Do you keep ALL the commandments?

Salvation is not based on YOUR righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness. If salvation was based on OUR righteousness, then we would never make it.

AMEN !, , however we need to access Jesus Christs Rightiousness and make it part of our Temporal/Spiritual Lives in our Salvation Soteriology Journey/Quest. Charis through True Pistis .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

I am asking you if it is possible for a man who is about to die to accept Christ as his Savior and without further works and ordinances go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Yes and no. Because some one will do the ordinance work for him before the day of Judgement.

[Tanyan]

Yes and no. Because some one will do the ordinance work for him before the day of Judgement.

.

[kantgomo]

I know this doesn't answer your question, Urroner or at least in the context in which you ask. I'm still looking into that.

I did want to throw this in though in the meantime. What work are we even capable of doing in order to prove to God that we have never sinned or what work are we capable of doing that we can pay the penalty for our sin?

[ERayR]

I know this doesn't answer your question, Urroner or at least in the context in which you ask. I'm still looking into that.

I did want to throw this in though in the meantime. What work are we even capable of doing in order to prove to God that we have never sinned or what work are we capable of doing that we can pay the penalty for our sin?

None!! What we do offer is obedience to Christs commandments to show that we have accepted is atonement and through him we are cleansed.

[Tanyan]

None!! What we do offer is obedience to Christs commandments to show that we have accepted is atonement and through him we are cleansed.

AMEN !, Hebrews 5:9 . In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[kantgomo]

None!! What we do offer is obedience to Christs commandments to show that we have accepted is atonement and through him we are cleansed.

Respectfully, I ask, does he not know otherwise that you've accepted his atonement? Who are you showing that you have accepted his atonement?

[Tanyan]

To me each member of the GODHEAD know and you are showing them your acceptance of Charis [Grace] by way of Pistis [Faith].

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[kantgomo]

To me each member of the GODHEAD know and you are showing them your acceptance of Charis [Grace] by way of Pistis [Faith].

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Do they know of your acceptance before you show them your acceptance? When do they know of your acceptance?

[Tanyan]

Athens and Jerusalem, or perhaps Calvinism eh ?. . Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[stux]

IMO, I do not see the point of a "grace vs works" argument unless the other party believes in very specific doctrine where salvation is in effect Forced on you.

1. All of mankind is saved through Christ regardless of anything ( universal salvation to all )

2. Christ's atonement covers someone only by predestination

The minute someone teaches that you need to accept jesus in any form regardless it becomes a personal decision. Salvation is suddenly optional where one can choose "Heaven or Hell." To argue that making a choice between one and the other is not an progression/digression from one state to another is just absurd. The point where someone wants to argue that making a choice is not a work is the immediate deadlock to an advancement in discussion. Its a deadlock because its false however you interpret a "work of salvation." The moment you have a choice in your salvation is the moment you can choose whether your saved or not.

At what point are keeping the commandments not required? Why did Christ teach Faith, repentance, Baptism, etc. under conditions of entering the Kingdom of God? If faith in Christ All that is required and if so why set Gospel Laws? If you reject Gospel Laws does that affect your salvation? Once saved always saved regardless?

Is there a difference between someone that is "saved" and keeps the commandments to the best of his ability and someone that is saved but sees no reason to improve his life and live more like the savior?

I cant help but think that those who try to say "Mormon salvation by works!" either don't want to advance their argument any further to explain anything else taught in the Bible or are just too ignorant to accept that they could be wrong and do not want to adjust their views. Why cant some people just accept our belief for what it is rather then state how we are wrong and how they can show us we don't really believe what we claim. Such a childish argument that leads no where. GIVE US SOMETHING MORE

[johnny]

stux

1. All of mankind is saved through Christ regardless of anything ( universal salvation to all )

If "All of mankind is saved" why do those who "believeth not" are damned instead of saved?

2. Christ's atonement covers someone only by predestination

Christ's atonement covers those who receive it by faith.

The point where someone wants to argue that making a choice is not a work is the immediate deadlock to an advancement in discussion. Its a deadlock because its false however you interpret a "work of salvation."

From scripture it is clear that "making a choice" to be saved is not a work.

At what point are keeping the commandments not required? Why did Christ teach Faith, repentance, Baptism, etc. under conditions of entering the Kingdom of God? If faith in Christ All that is required and if so why set Gospel Laws? If you reject Gospel Laws does that affect your salvation?

From faith comes repentance and sanctification. To faith we add virtues like charity to perfect our faith. We keep the commandments to believe and love because we love God.

Is there a difference between someone that is "saved" and keeps the commandments to the best of his ability and someone that is saved but sees no reason to improve his life and live more like the savior?

There is a difference between some one who believes and understand the word of God and one who doesn't. The person who believes and understand brings forth the fruit of the Spirit.

I cant help but think that those who try to say "Mormon salvation by works!" either don't want to advance their argument any further to explain anything else taught in the Bible or are just too ignorant to accept that they could be wrong and do not want to adjust their views.

Those who say "Mormon salvation by works!" want Mormons to advance their understanding that Jesus and his apostles did not teach "salvation by works", the apostles taught salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth.

Why cant some people just accept our belief for what it is rather then state how we are wrong and how they can show us we don't really believe what we claim.

Do you believe "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Such a childish argument that leads no where. GIVE US SOMETHING MORE.

I give you the word of God .... the inspired word of God says "by grace are ye saved through faith ... not of works".

[Tanyan]

Saved by Grace [Charis] alone "Through" Faith [Pistis] alone ! , however the Anchient understanding of Faith [Pistis] is misunderstood by LDS critics when they present that Eph 2:8 scripture to us .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

From one Catholic Apologist to another Catholic [Johnny]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/salv.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[ERayR]

Respectfully, I ask, does he not know otherwise that you've accepted his atonement? Who are you showing that you have accepted his atonement?

1 Jn. 5: 2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14: 15

15

[coolrok7]

Ah coolrok my Lutheran Synod friend/critic, Agape greetings to you.The LDS JEDI KNIGHT Title has me proclaiming truth. Just as the Post Biblical Christians took previous pagan symbols that pre-date Christianity [Cross/Fish as examples] and re-interpeted them into a Christian context I have done nothing less than the same. . . .

All we can do is a Biblical Teaching coolrok if you would just read the entire context of 2 Nephi 25:23 [The Whole Chapter, along with the Whole of chapter 26 as well]. You will understand what "All you can do" means [Also read Alma 24:11 in context to see more about "All you can do" in context.

Yes coolrok it is SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ! AMEN The problem is coolrok is your understanding of that understanding of being Saved by Grace [Charis] ALONE = The Way in which one is Saved/Exhalted into the Heavenly abode, and how that "Free Gift" is activated and made alive in ones Temporal/Spiritual Journey/Quest to allow them to go to Heaven ?, it's through FAITH [Pistis]ALONE which is ACTION, deeds Born out of Love For The LORD OF LIFE JESUS CHRIST to serve him and our neighbors.The Sixth Law of the Harvest coolrok is a True companion of 2 Nephi 25:23. . . .

Part I

Your explanation doesnâ??t change my view of the idea behind your Star Wars handle Tanyan, which is not â??Christianâ? just like the â??Mormonismâ? you espouse.

There is no good/dark side to God who is not a â??forceâ? as Jehovahâ??s Witnesses would argue for â??holy spiritâ? as Jehovah Godâ??s active force (an immaterial power or force that emanates from God, not a personal being as Christianâ??s would understand).

One can use symbolism of any kind but a distinction has to be made between Christian doctrine of God and eastern metaphysical teaching/belief, which you donâ??t in your handle. The Mormon doctrine you espouse is not becoming of a Christian.

To be correct though (as Mormons like officially to be addressed), itâ??s Christian, of the Lutheran, Missouri Synod (tribe):

I would like to speak of the institution. . .The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, sometimes known as the Mormon Church. That is not the Churchâ??s correct name; it is only a nickname derived from our belief in the Book of Mormon, . . .â??Elder Russell M. Nelson (AN APOSTLEâ??S TESTIMONY pamphlet, p.2)

Theyâ??ve actually had three names (including the nickname Mormon â??derived from our belief in the Book of Mormonâ?):

the name of the Church on the title pages of the first three printings of the revelations: â??The Church of Christ- (Book of Commandments) 1833, â??The Church of the Latter-day Saintsâ? (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835), and â??The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintsâ? (Doctrine and Covenants, 1844).â? (The Ensign, January 1979, p.13)

The BofM I believe is not from God but from/through the mouth of Joseph Smith by aid of a rock in a hat in which his face was placed in it to read the writing in words of light that he was reading from, not translating as in the appearance from the paintings used to promote faith in him as a so-called â??Prophetâ? of God.

George Reynolds quotes the following from a letter written to the Deseret News by Edward Stevenson:

Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, â??Written,â? and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used. (Myth of the Manuscript Found, 1883 Edition, p.91)

Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal that in 1881 Joseph F. Smith, who became the sixth President of the Mormon Church, taught that the Lord gave Joseph Smith the exact English wording and spelling that he should use in the Book of Mormon:

Saturday Feb. 25, 1881, I went to Provo to a quarterly Stake Conference. Heard Joseph F. Smith describe the manner of translating the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith the Prophet and Seer, which was as follows as near as I can recollect the substance of his description. Joseph did not render the writing on the gold plates into the English language in his own style of language as many people believe, but every word and every letter was given to him by the gift and power of God. So it is the work of God and not of Joseph Smith, and it was done in this way. . . .The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the Book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stones would remain there. Then Joseph would require the scribe to spell the reading of the last spoken and thus find the mistake and when recorded the sentence would disappear as usual. (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, p.168 of typed copy at Utah State Historical Society

Here is a description referred to by, â??Elder Russell M. Nelson Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostlesâ? in the following Ensign article:

As Oliver Cowdery testified a few years later: â??These were days never to be forgottenâ??to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated â?¦ the history or record called â??The Book of Mormon.â?? â? (JSâ??H 1:71n.)

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

â??Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.â? (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.) (Russell M. Nelson, â??A Treasured Testament,â? Ensign, Jul 1993, 61)

I would ask from the description above, â??Where are the pieces of parchment?â?, or were they taken back as well as the supposed golden plates? Just a thought I had after pasting the above (from LDS.org).

â??Salvationâ? from "eternal punishment" to "eternal life" is not resurrection ( which is only the process of bringing a mortal body to being an immortal body) which takes place at judgment day at the Second coming od Jesus) as Mormonism has twisted the Biblical terms. You parrot Mormonism to the â??Mâ? but you often use Christian terminology that I never hear from other Mormons (in our meetings at Mariner Church for example):

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Resurrection is not the gift (eternal life is the gift given in response to God in faith while at the same time being rescued from â??eternal punishmentâ?) and is described this way by Jesus Himself (coming to faith in Christ is good):

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

I know well my own understanding of â??faith aloneâ? which you donâ??t (which is in the context of not by â??worksâ? but salvation by grace through faith). In the Reformation there are other Solas (alone) so it isnâ??t by itself (as in no works) but this- Sola Fide (faith), Sola Gracia (grace), Sola Scriptura (scripture), the battle cry of the Reformation so to speak:

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. (2 Timothy 1:8-11)

This to me you donâ??t really understand as a Mormon. Most Mormons Iâ??ve encountered by first hand experience for over thirty years at Mormon chapels during their instruction time, priesthood and Sunday school, donâ??t know much about the Reformation and what brought it about. Here are Luthers own words:

I would gladly have seen all my books forgotten and destroyed; if only for the reason that I am afraid of the example. For I see what benefit it has brought to the churches, that men have begun to collect many books and great libraries, outside and alongside of the Holy Scriptures; . . .Not only has good time been wasted, and the study of Scripture neglected; but the pure understanding of the divine Word is lost, . . .Then, too, it was our intention and our hope, when we began to put the Bible into German, that there would be less writing, and more studying and reading of the Scriptures. For all other writing should point to the Scriptures, as John pointed to Christ, when he said, â??He must increase, but I must decrease.â? . . .I only ask in all kindness, that the man who wishes at this time to have my books will by no means let them be a hindrance to his own study of the Scriptures, . . . (Lutherâ??s preface to the first part of his German Works, 1539 edition, pp.7-9)

Based on the fact of appealing to a non-Biblical Standard (the BofM) which goes against clear Biblical teaching:

Jesus said to him, â??Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â? And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following (the first two I have no problem in which I already meet the requirements, the last two are not Biblical:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

The Bible does not teach the above (except for points 1, 2 of which the Mormon church does not represent or claim):

only true and living church on the face of the whole earth. (D&C 1:30)

[coolrok7]

Part II

There are two terms associated with the process of coming to faith in Jesus (the Biblical Jesus not the Mormon Jesus of Joseph Smith) which are Justification and Sanctification.

They go together but one precedes the other. Justification took place at the cross (which only applies to the individual that comes to faith but is offered to everyone of which some will choose not to believe):

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

Sanctification (set aside for works of service) starts for the individual at the point of faith, when the individual responds to the message of eternal life as opposed to eternal punishment. It is at this point one comes to the realization that one is subject to hell as the result of having a sinful nature (being born that way):

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â??Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.â?? â??Then they also will answer Him, saying, â??Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?â?? Then He will answer them, saying, â??Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.â?? And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.(Matthew 25:41-46)

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. (Psalm 51)

The verses that would represent the distinction between Justification and Sanctification would be from both Peter and Paul:

What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, â??Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,â? and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, â??You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.â? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, â??AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,â? and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2:14 â??24)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Paulâ??s usage of â??savedâ? is in conjunction with â??not of worksâ?. Peterâ??s â??faith without works is deadâ? is in the context of him saying â??You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Peters statement is preceeded by this earlier in James chapter 2 (note the people mentioned already have faith):

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, â??You sit here in a good place,â? and you say to the poor man, â??You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,â?

have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, â??YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,â? you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, â??DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,â? also said, â??DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.â? Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:1-13)

I believe it therefore can be argued that there are two justifications, one before God and one before man. Paulâ??s statement here I think can be brought to bear for this understanding in light of Peterâ??s above:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. . . .What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by worksâ?? he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? â??AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.â? Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, . . . (Romans 3:23-28; 4:1-5)

Note that this righteousness is by faith not by works as something that is earned/merited/worked for as in Mormon Exaltation. In other words youâ??re wrong, not me/others that believe the Biblical way, as alluded to here by Joseph Smith (supposedly what God told Joseph):

for they were all wrong; . . .all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;

In the BOM, Joseph useâ??s a term from one of the â??abominableâ? creeds in Mormon 3:21:

And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the [*] very God.

[* the term very God was used to defend the deity of Christ in the Nicene creed (against the Arian heresy). The term very is not in the Greek manuscripts of the Bible but appears in the King James translation alongside the term Christ]

Latter-day Saints also share a common misunderstanding of the â??Trinitarianâ? teaching concerning the nature of God and His relationship to creation. They along with Jehovahâ??s Witnesses and other groups think that Trinitarians believe (we donâ??t) that Jesus and the Father are the same person (some might/do believe this way).

The following statements reflect that misunderstanding:

Elder: . . .BUT WHAT DO WE LEARN ABOUT GOD FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF JOSEPH SMITH?

Brown: That he has a real body.

Elder: Yes, he does. THE CHURCHES ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON, WERE BOTH THE SAME PERSON. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, p.12)

The Oneness of the Father and the Son: There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his Father and thanked him for his apostles, saying, â??that they may be one, as we are.â? (John 17:11). . .Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, . . .(John 17:24). . .Again it is evident that the oneness referred to has no reference to oneness of personage, for if Jesus and his Father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.22)

If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he? Since Jesus prayed to God, . . .the two could not be the same person (You can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p.39)

Also I reject this teaching of a Mormon â??apostleâ? that misrepresents what we believe and the Bible teaches. Elder Bruce R. McConkie, while speaking at a BYU devotional in 1984 states the following (directed at Protestant Christianity):

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, â??These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: â??I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My nameâ??s sake and have not become weary. (Revelation 2:1-3)

[The last bolded line as stated above is a common misperception and misrepresentation of the Protestant understanding of â??salvation by graceâ? (this is not what Lutheran Christians teach concerning the subject of justification and sanctification)]

The following is part of a past conversation I had with Kevin [Wayne] Graham from his Mormon Answers website (first my statement, then his response; this was from back in May of 1999) He used to be quite active at ZLMB:

When your Church teaches that what I believe as a Protestant Christian is â??paganâ? and â??hereticalâ? and that Iâ??m wrong, my point back is to give a defense of both what I believe from scripture (the Bible) and what I have been told officially by members of the LDS Church.In reference to the word â??someâ? Paul as you know wrote both 1&2 Timothy as well as 1&2 Thessalonians. The word apostasy in Thessalonians and some that would fall away in Timothy is speaking about the same thing. . .There will always be people falling away from the truth which will eventually culminate in the final delusion of the last anti-Christ (Paul identifies as the son of perdition)(there have been many anti-Christâ??s as John says), who will be destroyed at the appearing of Jesus in the clouds. The point being there was and always will be the truth as contained in the Bible, preserved by the Holy Spirit of God. . . .

Excellent post Roy, and I do agree with most of what you stated. You have made an interesting argument about the two epistles to Timothy, and I do appreciate this, since I have never heard this as a defense for â??someâ? apostasy. It is well noted! But I do have to say that the â??Falling awayâ? passage never literally said â??Completeâ? either, and is perhaps one of the weaker scriptures used to defend the LDS position of a â??complete apostasyâ?,

although it is probably the most cited. . . .

There was no â??totalâ? â??completeâ? apostasy as taught within Mormonism:

3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58).

Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. In him and in him alone is there redemption. But he works in his own way. Godâ??s way is not manâ??s way. The Lord provided that salvation should come through his gospel functioning through his church, wherein are prophets and apostles â??for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.â? (Ephesians 4:12). . .Is there such a church upon the earth? Until 1830 there was not. It had been lost through the falling away we have described in this pamphlet. (Which Church is Right pamphlet, p.17)

Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

Because Paul taught the following:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1 2, 6)

[Zakuska]

There was no "total" "complete" apostasy as taught within Mormonism:

Amos 8

11

[Flyonthewall]

Respectfully, I ask, does he not know otherwise that you've accepted his atonement? Who are you showing that you have accepted his atonement?

Although our works demonstrate our willingness to follow the teachings of Christ, I don't beleive they reveal more about us to God, than He already knows, but I think our works help refine ourselves, to change our characters for the better. As we serve others, the benefit is twofold - those we serve are lifted up and helped, and we become better, more perfect people ourselves.

Jesus was perfect because He DID the will of the Father. Jesus has commanded us to be perfect, and gave us teachings to follow in order to become perfect. He gave us an example and marked the path to follow, but follow we must.

[coolrok7]

Amos 8

11