Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Zakuska]

I'll repeat what I said to Tanyan, Paul said that the Holy Spirit said (unless you want to call him/Him a liar (the angel in the Book of Revelation is not the "angel Mormoni" which inspired a false gospel):

That was the 400 year time period between the last Old Testament book and the first century when the Old Testament was being fulfilled in Jesus, the one pointed out to come in, ""the fullness of the time", even Jesus Christ:

Yet Daniels vision places this event well after the 400 years between the OT and the NT.

[coolrok7]

Yet Daniels vision places this event well after the 400 years between the OT and the NT.

Which Daniels vision? Paul was the one who said the Holy Spirit said "some", not "complete" "total" as in Mormon writing. The 400 year gap still fits the time between the testamental period where the "Word of the Lord" was not given. They already had the Old Testament and God's Word to them that they often ignored which is what caused the various things that happened to them in the form of the recorded previous punishments that they had to endure.

Paul makes a reference to this in the sense of the Church as it existed in contrast to the religious Jews of his day which existed in Jerusalem/Israel and the surrounding nations (which is not a reference to a "mother in heaven" as Mormoism would have us believe):

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagarâ??for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her childrenâ??but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:

â??Rejoice, O barren,

You who do not bear!

Break forth and shout,

You who are not in labor!

For the desolate has many more children

Than she who has a husband.â?

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? â??Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.â? So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Galatians 4:21-31)

Just like when Mormons like to quote Amos and don't quote Hebrews, an updated version of what is now taught without negating the validity of the earlier:

Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Hebrews 1:1-4)

[Zakuska]

Which Daniels vision?

The ten toes (ie earthly Kingdoms) who appears AFTER Rome falls and the AntiChrist comes who is to over come ALL the Saints.

[Tanyan]

Part I

Your explanation doesn't change my view of the idea behind your Star Wars handle Tanyan, which is not "Christian" just like the "Mormonism" you espouse.

There is no good/dark side to God who is not a "force" as Jehovah's Witnesses would argue for "holy spirit" as Jehovah God's active force (an immaterial power or force that emanates from God, not a personal being as Christian's would understand).

One can use symbolism of any kind but a distinction has to be made between Christian doctrine of God and eastern metaphysical teaching/belief, which you don't in your handle. The Mormon doctrine you espouse is not becoming of a Christian.

To be correct though (as Mormons like officially to be addressed), it's Christian, of the Lutheran, Missouri Synod (tribe):

They've actually had three names (including the nickname Mormon "derived from our belief in the Book of Mormon"):

The BofM I believe is not from God but from/through the mouth of Joseph Smith by aid of a rock in a hat in which his face was placed in it to read the writing in words of light that he was reading from, not translating as in the appearance from the paintings used to promote faith in him as a so-called "Prophet" of God.

George Reynolds quotes the following from a letter written to the Deseret News by Edward Stevenson:

Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal that in 1881 Joseph F. Smith, who became the sixth President of the Mormon Church, taught that the Lord gave Joseph Smith the exact English wording and spelling that he should use in the Book of Mormon:

Here is a description referred to by, "Elder Russell M. Nelson Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" in the following Ensign article:

I would ask from the description above, "Where are the pieces of parchment?", or were they taken back as well as the supposed golden plates? Just a thought I had after pasting the above (from LDS.org).

"Salvation" from "eternal punishment" to "eternal life" is not resurrection ( which is only the process of bringing a mortal body to being an immortal body) which takes place at judgment day at the Second coming od Jesus) as Mormonism has twisted the Biblical terms. You parrot Mormonism to the "M" but you often use Christian terminology that I never hear from other Mormons (in our meetings at Mariner Church for example):

Resurrection is not the gift (eternal life is the gift given in response to God in faith while at the same time being rescued from "eternal punishment") and is described this way by Jesus Himself (coming to faith in Christ is good):

I know well my own understanding of "faith alone" which you don't (which is in the context of not by "works" but salvation by grace through faith). In the Reformation there are other Solas (alone) so it isn't by itself (as in no works) but this- Sola Fide (faith), Sola Gracia (grace), Sola Scriptura (scripture), the battle cry of the Reformation so to speak:

This to me you don't really understand as a Mormon. Most Mormons I've encountered by first hand experience for over thirty years at Mormon chapels during their instruction time, priesthood and Sunday school, don't know much about the Reformation and what brought it about. Here are Luthers own words:

Based on the fact of appealing to a non-Biblical Standard (the BofM) which goes against clear Biblical teaching:

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following (the first two I have no problem in which I already meet the requirements, the last two are not Biblical:

The Bible does not teach the above (except for points 1, 2 of which the Mormon church does not represent or claim):

Coolrok,I really do not care if you accept or not my explanation for my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Title or not. I gave you A Christian explanation along with references to 2 Books by 2 individuals that show the JEDI KNIGHT persona is Christian if put into a Christian context, if you can or cannot accept that, fine you need to work through it. And by the way My LDS/Mormon I espouse is Christian.

Your BofM criticisms have been answered/responded to in the past as well. I have also in years past had a friend who was once a Lutheran Minister but became LDS and we talked from time to time about Doctrine, another I also possess a cassette tape from another Former Lutheran Minister who became LDS [ It's buried around here somewhere]. So I know some of Lutheranism.

I "parrot" mormonism ?, wow, thats interesting. In all my conversations with Catholic/Coptic Orthodox/Greek Orthodox/Reformed/ Methodists/Baptists over the past few years I have used Christian Terminology/Venacular to express Orthodox LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk. I Have been conversing with Christians in the above mentioned Faith for 30 years.

Salvation by Charis = [Grace of Jesus Christ] alone through Pistis =[ Faith, as in what the Anchients - Israelites/Saints-Christians Believed in] alone is True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought,Practice,Walk.

Your works do not save you [Only Jesus Blood Sacrifice can] but they help and show that you want to be and stay Saved. The problem is what is Faith ? is it active or stagnant ?. Its a synergy they work together.

I respect Martin Luther however I believe he was Bi-polar. He said/did/wrote some great things however many in the world of Christiandom do not see him in any Christian light at all, he was a murderer, He wanted to have a whole race of GOD wiped off the face of the earth [Jews] and other unchristian behavioral tendancies tward others. He cursed repeatedly and could hold his own with any individual in a swear word face off.

Sorry you seem to have an OCB about things LDS, perhaps you are predestined to this plight. I will pray for healing to your soul. Remember that I am restricted in areas due to my mental/physical challenges/limitations which I shared with you on the Lighthouse message board some time ago. Thank you for your time.

Salvation, comes in and through his atoning blood and in no ther way [Exact quote from Elder Bruce R. McConkie April 1985 General Conference].

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Trencher7]

charity's child

Do you believe 2Nephi 25:23 is Mormon doctrine.... if it is "only grace" like you have said then why does 2Nephi 25:23 incclude "after all we can do"?

Because, even after all we can do, it is ultimately by grace that we are saved. The BoM also says even if we were to work as hard as we can we are still unprofitable servants.

Johnny, you sound no different from a Reformed Evangelical. One of the better books I have read on this subject was from a Catholic apologist who clearly disagrees with your interpretation. Paul is referring to works under a system of obligation. We cannot think we can earn salvation buy our own works. Works in this sense will bring us only damnation if we think they can save us alone, but under a system of grace, God allows our works to have salvific value when we have faith in him. James wanted to be clear that works were part of the salvation process when combined with faith. Paul was teaching that works without faith = dead. Faith "apart from works of the law" is far different than claiming it is by "faith alone", which James makes clear.

[Billy]

We cannot think we can earn salvation buy our own works. Works in this sense will bring us only damnation if we think they can save us, but under a system of grace God allows our works to have salvific value when we have faith in him.

What on earth does this mean?

[urroner]

What on earth does this mean?

"...saved by grace after all we can do." It's intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer Billy.

[coolrok7]

Coolrok,I really do not care if you accept or not my explanation for my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Title or not. I gave you A Christian explanation along with references to 2 Books by 2 individuals that show the JEDI KNIGHT persona is Christian if put into a Christian context, if you can or cannot accept that, fine you need to work through it. And by the way My LDS/Mormon I espouse is Christian. . . .

Salvation, comes in and through his atoning blood and in no ther way [Exact quote from Elder Bruce R. McConkie April 1985 General Conference].

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

An exact quote also from Bruce R. McConkie at a BYU devotional spaeking as an "apostle" to Church members while misrepresenting the Protestant view of God and Salavtion:

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

Until the Mormon Church (Christian heretical movement) retracts the statement then it hangs on all the Church as representing Mormonism telling lies about what others officially teach in our own literature. Especially when they say the following:

I was handed a tract the other day. It was written by a critic, an enemy of the Church whose desire is to undermine the faith of the weak and the unknowing. It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Nov. 1986, p.49)

Salvation is only resurrection in Mormonism which you have ignored. In Biblical Salvation The blood of Jesus is only applied to those who are His and those who met the condition of faith without actually hearing about Jesus (Romans 2) in the resurrection where Jesus says:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

Mormonism teaches:

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

The Biblical teaching is that eternal life is the gift that is given in response to faith, which is not merited/earned/worked for as in Mormon exltation.

If you deny this, I believe your Bishop should have a talk with you:

You can never pay the debt by your works which equals Mormon exaltation. Especially when the atonement, the blood Jesus shed on the cross, is expressed in this way in a MORMON PROSELYTIZING PAMPHLET:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâ??s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (What the Mormons think of Christ, pp.19-20)

Paul teaches in the book of Romans (check the context):

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:8-9)

I wonder why Christians believe this way? Could it be that is what the Bible teaches, that salvation is the gift, even eternal life? A Mormon would say, "of course not". I provided the quotes already that illustrate this.

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not â??mere beliefâ?):

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

Tanyan, lest you misunderstand me in which you always seem to do by my reading what you say and even listening to you in person), you are entitled to your view that orthodox Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are in agreement with how you state your views. It is not a valid "Christian" position to recast Mormon orthodoxy as the equivalent to Christianity. The two don't go togeter without distorting either view.

As I stated earlier, Mormonism redefines the terminology, uses the form of the word with a different meaning assigned to the term than is normally used/understood.

I understand how Christians, not Mormons, present their views as Christian while using the story as told by Gearge Lucas who has a definite eastern world view which is NOT CHRISTIAN. If a Christian explains it in a Christian world view context while using some of the motifs such as good and evil, thats fine with me. But to use the dark/good side of the force as an LDS JEDI KNIGHT is not compatible with the God of Scripture, the Bible. On that point I do believe you have misconstreud the Biblical understanding of God and attempt to couch it in Mormon terminology which is not ok but is heretical.

For instance Bruce R. Mcconkie statement concerning heresy from his persepective as a Mormon General Authority:

Heresy, See APOSTASY, DOCTRINE, ORTHODOXY, TRUTH. In the true gospel sense, any opinion or doctrine in opposition to the revealed word of the Lord as recorded in the standard works of the Church as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an heresy. The issue is not how many people believe a teaching; it is whether the doctrine is true or false (2 Peter 2:1). . .There is no salvation in a false doctrine. (Mormon Doctrine, p.352)

As compared to both Peter and Paul's statement on heresy:

But know this first of all that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. (2 Peter 1:20)

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:18-19)â?

I'll stick with Biblical apostles not those who follow the foosteps a a false prophet who meets the Biblical standard of what a false prophet does as spelled out in the Old as well as the New Testament:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (13:1-3)

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; . . .But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (18:9-15, 20-22)

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:18-20)

I do care what you think because I perceive that you have twisted the Bible to your own destruction as well as all other Mormons have done as well if you don't have a change of doctrine. I say that with no animosity except for what I perceive to be false doctrine. It is not directed at you as a person but as one like everyone else, mercy from a just and loving God. He cannot lower one below the other. He gives us what we don't deserve in light of not getting we we actually deserve as sinful beings:

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christâ??s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:20-21)

So at the judgment he will say to some, "come inherit the kingdom prepared" and to some depart from me, you that work iniquity into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. There is no in between state of existence after judgment day. One is either a sheep or a goat. You use Christian terminology for specific Mormon doctrine which is not found in the Bible which means it is not Biblical.

The actual teaching needs to be in the Bible, not necessarily the term used to annunciate the doctrine (such as the Trinitarian understanding of the nature of God not gods. Also Theocracy as in the Old Testament God ruling over the nation of Israel with prophets he would send to the people when they were in disobedience to His stated will for them as a nation called out of the world to bring to pass His salvation for the entire world. This for all those who will listen and respond to His Good News as it is in Jesus!

[coolrok7]

"...saved by grace after all we can do." It's intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer Billy.

The Gospel message /is not intuitive to those who are lost urroner. If it was, then the Bible and the inspiration from the True Holy Spirit (not the counterfeit) wouldn't be needed.

[Trencher7]

What on earth does this mean?

That works without faith will do nothing for us. Works + faith justify the individual through God's grace. God grants grace to those with faith and works.

[kantgomo]

That works without faith will do nothing for us. Works + faith justify the individual through God's grace. God grants grace to those with faith and works.

Justification of individuals through works plus faith is not biblical doctrine.

Justification- A one time instantaneous act of God where God declares an individual to be just or in right standing before Him.

[Bsix]

Kantgomo: Justification of individuals through works plus faith is not biblical doctrine.

Hmmmm...your Bible must be missing the second chapter of James. Here are a few quotes:

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works,

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Works being a part of justification is very much a biblical concept.

Regards,

Six

[urroner]

The Gospel message /is not intuitive to those who are lost urroner. If it was, then the Bible and the inspiration from the True Holy Spirit (not the counterfeit) wouldn't be needed.

Does God want unbelievers to have to work to understand the gospel or does He not want them to understand the gospel? I thought that that was against biblical doctrine?

[johnny]

Trencher7

Because, even after all we can do, it is ultimately by grace that we are saved. The BoM also says even if we were to work as hard as we can we are still unprofitable servants.

The bottom line is that Mormon doctrine is still "saved, after all we can do " (BoM).

The third Mormon Articles of Faith says:

• 3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  

Johnny, you sound no different from a Reformed Evangelical.

Thank you ... the apostle Paul reasoned from the scriptures, inspired scripture is useful for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction". Paul taught that we not saved by works, see below

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  

One of the better books I have read on this subject was from a Catholic apologist who clearly disagrees with your interpretation.

What I am saying is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Bible, see below:

• 1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life
  
• -
  
• 1814 - Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith man freely commits his entire self to God. For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "work through charity"
  
• -
  
• 1996 - Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life
  

Paul is referring to works under a system of obligation.

Paul is referring to works of righteousness, see below

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  

James wanted to be clear that works were part of the salvation process when combined with faith.

See discussion on James in my next post to "Bsix".

Paul was teaching that works without faith = dead. Faith "apart from works of the law" is far different than claiming it is by "faith alone", which James makes clear.

Paul was teaching that faith without the spirit is dead.

[johnny]

Bsix

Hmmmm...your Bible must be missing the second chapter of James. Here are a few quotes:

You are missing the point of James. We are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). We hear the word of God which says "love one another" and we do. We show are faith by our works of mercy (James 2:13-18). By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only (James 2:21-24). Faith without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). By adding virtues like mercy and charity to our faith we shall not be unfruitful (2Pet 1:3-8 ).

James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, by doing the word of God his faith was made perfect, he was justified (James 2:21-26). Abraham was not justified by his works, if so then he would have reason to boast, Abraham was credited with righteousness because Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief, rather he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God, the promised inheritance is through the righteousness that comes from faith (Rom 4:2-25).

• Jas.1 ([22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.)
  
• -
  
• Jas.2 ([13] For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)
  

Works being a part of justification is very much a biblical concept.

The biblical concept is that works are not part of being saved (see below), by doing works of mercy we are blessed (James 1:22-25; 2:13-18).

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  

[urroner]

I was just listening to some televangelist show and they said that if I would just repeat a prayer they would say, I would be saved. Evangelists must believe that works are important to ones salvation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Justification of individuals through works plus faith is not biblical doctrine.Justification- A one time instantaneous act of God where God declares an individual to be just or in right standing before Him.

Awsome.

I was just listening to some televangelist show and they said that if I would just repeat a prayer they would say, I would be saved. Evangelists must believe that works are important to ones salvation.

That isnt a work, anything that could be consruded a work after you have confessed Jesus is just God working thru you.

[Billy]

Awsome.That isnt a work, anything that could be consruded a work after you have confessed Jesus is just God working thru you.

Again you are twisting the doctrine of Justification by faith. You are combining the terms justification and sanctification, two very different things. On the one hand you are justified by faith and by your faith you will be saved and live with God again. For a new believer the fruit in his life are pretty sparse. And someone who just accepts Christ he will likely have no works in his life. Throughout your life as the Holy Spirit works in your life you become more and more Holy i.e. progressive sanctification. Both the new believer and the life long believer will BOTH go and live with God the Father again. There is no difference in WHERE they go despite the difference in works between the new and life long believer. There will be differences in the rewards that they receive, but both will be in the same place despite the difference in their rewards.

How you answer the question below will tell you if you believe in Justification by faith or by faith AND something else--fill in the blank on what is that something else.

I am asking you if it is possible for a man who is about to die to accept Christ as his Savior and without further works and ordinances to go to the Celestial Kingdom (live with God the Father).

[Grothar]

I'm pretty sure not Billy.

But let me ask you a question in return kay?

If I give you a puzzle, and take away several pieces can you still finish it?

Grothar, is himself

[Billy]

If I give you a puzzle, and take away several pieces can you still finish it?

If pieces from a puzzle are missing then NO you can't finish it.

But a big ASSUMPTION on YOUR part is that there are missing pieces.

Addition/Edit

So Grothar what is the answer to this question?

I am asking you if it is possible for a man who is about to die to accept Christ as his Savior and without further works and ordinances to go to the Celestial Kingdom (live with God the Father).

[Grothar]

And that's exactly where we'll have to agree to disagree.

I believe that to be exalted we need all the proper ordinances and everything.

I also believe god to be just.

Based off of those two points I think people who have never heard the gospel, or even people who sinned in this life will have a second chance in Spirit Prison.

You don't believe all those ordinances are required (I assume)

So let's just agree to disagree okay?

Grothar, has nothin good for his signature line.

[LeSellers]

I'm pretty sure not Billy.

...

Grothar, is himself

Has anyone confused you for Billy? I know I haven't.

Or did you mean to say, "I'm pretty sure not, Billy"?

Lehi

[Grothar]

yeah that

Grothar, is sorry for any dissonace his signature may have caused

[Trencher7]

Paul condemned works under a faithless system of obligation. He stressed that we can never obligate God to save us though our own efforts.

Rom. 4:4: "To the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace but according to obligation"

"Works of law" refers to "works done solely under legal contract" which demand payment for performance, regardless of whether or not the person doing the work believes in and loves his benefactor.

God does not want that kind of employee/employer relationship with man. In Rom 5:1 he tells us we "access" grace through faith, but Paul does not teach that faith should be alone. As we know he said it is even better to have charity than to have faith.

[Hoops22]

I agree.