Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[revelation]

Why do we have to confess? Sounds like you are adding works. Can't you boast about your confessing once it gets you into heaven?

No, I am already saved, remember? Works come after I am saved by grace alone, not before I am saved by grace alone. See what I am saying?

My confessing and all my good works are nothing to boast about. My only boast is in Jesus alone in whom I have been justified through faith alone by his grace alone already!

Therefore I don't boast about my confessing as you would have to because my confessing doesn't get me into heaven. Jesus got me into heaven! I boast in him alone!

[Trencher7]

No, I am already saved, remember? Works come after I am saved by grace alone, not before I am saved by grace alone. See what I am saying?

My confessing and all my good works are nothing to boast about. My only boast is in Jesus alone in whom I have been justified through faith alone by his grace alone already!

If works were automatic to the believer, why did James have to scold fellow believers to have good works? It obviously does not come without effort on our part. We do all agree that our good works are never anything to boast about since we are saved by God's grace.

[revelation]

If works were automatic to the believer, why did James have to scold fellow believers to have good works? It obviously does not come without effort on our part.

Because we have 3 enemies that keep us from doing what we want: Our own sinful nature(old self), the world and Satan.

But we also have our new self which desires to serve and obey God only.

I asked these questions below earlier, did you answer them? If not, could you answer them?

What does grace mean to you?

If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?

Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace.

[Trencher7]

Because we have 3 enemies that keep us from doing what we want: Our own sinful nature(old self), the world and Satan.

But we also have our new self which desires to serve and obey God only.

I agree. The disagreement then turns to if someone is OSAS.

[Trencher7]

Because we have 3 enemies that keep us from doing what we want: Our own sinful nature(old self), the world and Satan.

But we also have our new self which desires to serve and obey God only.

I asked these questions below earlier, did you answer them? If not, could you answer them?

What does grace mean to you?

If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?

Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace.

You edited this since I last responded.

I asked why you would try and quantify the amount of works yet not faith. How much faith do you need to have to be justified? How do you know when it happens?

[revelation]

I agree. The disagreement then turns to if someone is OSAS.

I don't believe in OSAS

[revelation]

You edited this since I last responded.

I asked why you would try and quantify the amount of works yet not faith. How much faith do you need to have to be justified? How do you know when it happens?

Okay, I then asked you to clarify and now you are clarifying. But you still didn't answer the questions.

[shalamabobbi]

revelation, it is against the rules to proselyte on this board, take it somewhere else..

The LDS people always claim they are not saved by works and here in this statement is clearly says you are saved by works(Obedience to the commandments of Christ). It's a contradiction. How do you not see that as a contradiction?

So we are saved by disobedience to the commandments of Christ..

It's a contradiction. How do you not see that as a contradiction?

Obedience to the commandments of Christ is the requirement of Christ himself in order to receive his grace..

Pretty plain if you have a brain..

Your either saved by grace or by odedience to the commandments.

You are saved by grace if you yield obedience to his commandments..false dichotomy

If you believe Christ, you believe in his requirements to receive his grace..

If God gives his grace to those with faith and works, how much works are required to gain that grace?

Can you show me where Jesus teaches how much works are required to gain that grace.

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I chose this scripture so you couldn't say that the commandment is simply to believe..

as I have kept my Father's commandments which for Christ was complete obedience to law.

So he is telling us to do the same, obey the laws of God.

Also being saved is not a one time event, you must abide to continue being saved..

This is life eternal, to know God..

1 John 2:3,4

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[coolrok7]

Once again Charis through True Pistis.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

How many times do I have to quote James which is where what you quote here comes from Tanyan? The problem is that Mormon teaching distorts what this means. Salvation as the gift (which is etrenal life which is no by works) is not resurrection and then earning what is redefined in Mormonism as "Exaltation".

Do you expect to recive brownie points because you can quote the Greek or Latin or whatever it is in another laguage?

[Trencher7]

Okay, I then asked you to clarify and now you are clarifying. But you still didn't answer the questions.

My point was in making the same question about faith. It's not something I see quantifying other than putting a timeframe on it. If you are converted you will have a lifetime of good works and a lifetime of faith. If you sin (as we all do), you will have the desire to repent and continue living a Christian life. If you do not keep on track, and since you said you don't believe in OSAS either, God's grace will not cover you if you lose faith and no longer follow Christ.

I like this definition of grace-

â?? grace is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

â?¦ It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means.."

[CherishedVirtue]

Sounds like there is a simple solution for this. I accept the scriptures and I know Jesus loves me. HA HA I'M SAVED! Now, I will do what works I can for my Lord and Savior while, STILL accepting the previous statement. That covers all my bases right?

[revelation]

So we are saved by disobedience to the commandments of Christ..

It's a contradiction. How do you not see that as a contradiction?

Obedience to the commandments of Christ is the requirement of Christ himself in order to receive his grace..

Pretty plain if you have a brain..

You are saved by grace if you yield obedience to his commandments..false dichotomy

If you believe Christ, you believe in his requirements to receive his grace..

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I chose this scripture so you couldn't say that the commandment is simply to believe..

as I have kept my Father's commandments which for Christ was complete obedience to law.

So he is telling us to do the same, obey the laws of God.

Also being saved is not a one time event, you must abide to continue being saved..

This is life eternal, to know God..

1 John 2:3,4

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

First of all, I would like to say: Lets be freinds. Lets talk to one another as good freinds would.

Where in these passages you quoted does it say to try your best to keep the commandments? John 15:10 doesn't say to try our best, it says to keep the commandments. Even you yourself said: "as I have kept my Father's commandments which for Christ was complete obedience to law.

So he is telling us to do the same, obey the laws of God." So then complete and perfect odedience to Christ's law is what is expected of you. How well are you doing at that? Not well, I can see that for myself by your own words again...

Pretty plain if you have a brain..

Under Christ's command to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", It is clear that nobody would appreciate being told they have no brain simply because they didn't see what we see. So why do you do unto others what you wouldn't have them do unto you when you are commanded to obey all of the commandments? The verse you quoted says: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" You quoted it yourself, and even in the other thread when you called me an "idiot". That's not keeping his commandments either and the verse says: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

So where does Jesus tell us in scripture how much obedience is enough so that we can be certain we can gain this grace?

[coolrok7]

Another comment on the op: There is no problem. It is saved by grace through faith, not by works. To which Mormonism redefines salvation to mean only "resurrection". And then changing the gift of eternal life" (Biblical salvation) into "exaltation" which has to be earned/merited/worked for as in Mormonism:"

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

The apostle says here to the Phillipian jailer and his family who became "saved" in one evening without the "Mormon" temple and its Masonic borrowed ritual (which is also heretical):

Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, â??These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.â? And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, â??I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.â? And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, â??These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city; and they teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe.â? Then the multitude rose up together against them; and the magistrates tore off their clothes and commanded them to be beaten with rods. And when they had laid many stripes on them, they threw them into prison, commanding the jailer to keep them securely. Having received such a charge, he put them into the inner prison and fastened their feet in the stocks.

But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyoneâ??s chains were loosed. And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, â??Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.â?

Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, â??Sirs, what must I do to be saved?â?So they said, â??Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved/, you and your household.â? Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. (Acts 16:16-31)

This is the answer to the isue. Not the "problem" of what Mormonism teaches in conflict with the following:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

[Grothar]

Yep we're not perfect by any means.

That's why we believe we can repent, frequently, pretty much every day if you get right down to it.

That's why I don't beat myself up over not being flawless every day, sure I'm trying but I'll get another shot tomorrow.

Just clarifying our position for you

Grothar, at the very least thinks he's right

(Coolrok, do you think we believe that Jesus and the apostles didn't have the authority or proper means to save people? Really?)

[revelation]

My point was in making the same question about faith. It's not something I see quantifying other than putting a timeframe on it. If you are converted you will have a lifetime of good works and a lifetime of faith. If you sin (as we all do), you will have the desire to repent and continue living a Christian life. If you do not keep on track, and since you said you don't believe in OSAS either, God's grace will not cover you if you lose faith and no longer follow Christ.

Jesus teaches that we must be perfect before we follow him.

It is a real eye opener to study the scriptures and see that God demands perfection and nothing short of it.

We have Mathew 5:48 â??Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.â? Our father in heaven isnâ??t trying to be perfect, he IS perfect. We are to be perfect as he is perfect. The verse doesn't tell us to try and become perfect.

In Mathew 19:21 "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Notice in Mathew 19:21 above, Jesus teaches that the man must be perfect before he can even begin to follow Jesus.

Jesus didn't say: "go and try not to sin no more" Jesus said "go and sin no more" (John 8:11)

Jesus never taught once that we are to try our hardest, rather, he taught that we must be perfect.

James 2:10 teaches us â??For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking ALL OF IT.â? So in light of this verse, the entire law of Jesus is like a balloon. One little sin is like a pin that pops the entire balloon. Think about that verse. Every time we sin, we have broken the entire law. This is exactly the doctrine of Jesus as I have shown.

How do you think God views those who break his entire law? The answer to that is found in John 8:34-35 â??Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for everâ?

So the servant of sin will not abideth in Godâ??s house for ever. That is a grave warning for us.

I like this definition of grace-

â?? grace is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

â?¦ It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means.."

But in LDS repentance, you must first overcome your sin. Any sin you don't overcome by LDS teachings remains unforgiven. The LDS teaches that sin cannot abide with God. And I agree that sin cannot abide with God.

But the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. So sin cannot abide in any part of heaven. If your sin isn't forgiven, you cannot abide with God in either the Celestial, telestial or terrestial kingdoms. You must be perfect and spotless to abide anywhere in the kingdom of heaven for where there is Heavenly father, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, there abides God. Sin cannot abide with God.

[shalamabobbi]

So where does Jesus tell us in scripture how much obedience is enough so that we can be certain we can gain this grace?

"follow thou me"

It is not a quantifiable.

It is how we live our lives.

Every good deed has its reward as does every bad deed.

As we sow so we reap.

Christ taught repentance, which is more than merely being sorry for sin. It is the putting away of sin.

Because there are passages that can be twisted to supposedly support your POV does not negate the many other passages that contradict your view.

1 John 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

When we stumble in our efforts we pick ourselves up.

We are not saved until we are back in the presence of God after we have eliminated disobedience from our lives.

If we do not engage that "good warfare" we lose the opportunity to obtain it.

Repentance presupposes the need for it, so it is a process. We don't become perfect in obedience over night.

God remains the judge as to whether we were diligent or not, whether we put on the whole armour of God or not..

Rev 2:11

he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:5

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life..

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly,

Rev 2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee

21 I gave her space to repent; and she repented not..

22 I will cast them..except they repent of their deeds.

23 I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations;

Has the end come yet?

Then are we yet saved?

If our life is cut short we will have the opportunity to continue to perfect ourselves if that is the path we were pursuing when we died.

So don't procrastinate the day of your repentance..

[revelation]

"follow thou me"

It is not a quantifiable.

It is how we live our lives.

Every good deed has its reward as does every bad deed.

As we sow so we reap.

Christ taught repentance, which is more than merely being sorry for sin. It is the putting away of sin.

Here is the thing. If repentance means you must put away your sin in order to be saved, that means you need to believe you must die perfect just as I have shown from scriptures! Think about it, if you die without overcoming a particular sin, then you will not be saved. You have sinned today and everyday that I have talked with you (I am not holding it against you, just using it to make a point). So does that mean you are unrepentant?

I have never got an apology from you, that also is a sign of unrepentance. You don't take responsibilty for your sin. You just keep doing it.

One of the verses you quoted says this: " he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11 and another this: " To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life.." Rev 2:7.

So today, if you die, you are presently going to be overcome by the second death which is eternal and everlasting. Today you will not eat of the tree of life. In other words, if you die today, you go to outer darkness because outer darkness is the second death it is the tree of death as apposed to the tree of life in Rev 2:7.

So what chance do you have believing what you do?

If our life is cut short we will have the opportunity to continue to perfect ourselves if that is the path we were pursuing when we died.

We cannot continue to progress or perfect ourselves once we have died. There is one judgement and it is based on the things done in the body, in this life!

2 corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

So far you have sowed to please the sinful nature. You show no signs of sorrow for doing so. As you said: a man reaps what he sows:

Galatians 6:7-8 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

How can you find any comfort?

Remember, I am speaking as a concerned freind would.

[Tanyan]

How many times do I have to quote James which is where what you quote here comes from Tanyan? The problem is that Mormon teaching distorts what this means. Salvation as the gift (which is etrenal life which is no by works) is not resurrection and then earning what is redefined in Mormonism as "Exaltation".

Do you expect to recive brownie points because you can quote the Greek or Latin or whatever it is in another laguage?

Sorry coolrok I am NOT using the text of James, try again ! LDS do not distort the phrase from what I quote. Salvation is a gift, must be opened, used in rigtiousness, maintained.

Why the brownie point comment ?, your adamic nature is prevelant with comments like that. Try finding out what these words mean and how they were used in the anchient middle eastern world at that time period.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[coolrok7]

Sorry coolrok I am NOT using the text of James, try again ! LDS do not distort the phrase from what I quote. Salvation is a gift, must be opened, used in rigtiousness, maintained.

Why the brownie point comment ?, your adamic nature is prevelant with comments like that. Try finding out what these words mean and how they were used in the anchient middle eastern world at that time period.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

So what is the source of the terms you used? Is not your adamic nature not involved ? My adamic nature is not why I sad what I said. It is in response the statements you make to me. So your adamic nature is not involved here?

Yous used the words not me. So tell me the source of the words and what do they mean?

[shalamabobbi]

Pretty plain if you have a brain

Made you think?

Use your brain maybe..

Is that a sin to use your brain?

I'll leave it with God to judge the intent of my heart, thanks.

Here's the thing. What I have quoted to you is the scripture from the bible.

You decide you cannot do it. You decide you cannot be saved in that manner.

Therefore you change the bible to mean something else, something other than what it plainly states and teaches.

We can obey. The idea that we can't obey is fallacious.

We can learn to be perfectly obedient to the commandments of Christ.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The atonement provides expiation for past sins.

It is not a license for future sins.

It does not save us in our sins.

The gospel saves us from our sins.

The idea is to overcome sin itself, not just the punishment otherwise due for sin.

It would be unjust for God to punish one group of people for being disobedient, and reward another group of people for being disobedient.

Mercy cannot rob justice.

We must all appear before the judgement seat to receive the things done in the body weather good or bad.

The bad we understand. What is the good?

Those who accept the gospel, and repent, as well as receive the ordinances of salvation, have done good.

Their past sins are then covered through the atonement.

[Tanyan]

So what is the source of the terms you used? Is not your adamic nature not involved ? My adamic nature is not why I sad what I said. It is in response the statements you make to me. So your adamic nature is not involved here?

Yous used the words not me. So tell me the source of the words and what do they mean?

Come come coolrok, pray tell you do not know ? . Your unchristlike comments are not a part of your adamic nature ?, then where do they come from [ I admit mine come out at times].

look them up as I had to do, Charis through Pistis.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[busybee]

So where does Jesus tell us in scripture how much obedience is enough so that we can be certain we can gain this grace?

All that is required of us is our best. Your best may be more than my best, but my best is still my best.

We need to be as obedient as we are capable of being, and Christ, through His Atonement, will make up the difference.

Can't remember exactly where it is, but somewhere in the Bible a father asks Christ to heal his son. The Savior asks him if he believes and his response was "I believe. Help thou mine unbelief", or in other words, "Please make up the difference. Do for me what I cannot do for myself" Christ will make up the difference. His contribution will always outweigh ours infinitely, but we are still required to do our best. It would be arrogant to go through this life doing anything less than our best and still expect Christ to pick up the tab for our laziness.

[Tanyan]

Brigham Young - "The Latter Say Saints believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world; they believe that all who attain to any glory whatever, in any kingdom, will do so because Jesus has purchased it by his atonement". Sorry there was no reference to this quote from the book I an quoting from, if anyone can reference it it would be appriciated.

In HIs Debt/Grace,Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Hoops22]

All that is required of us is our best.

Where does the Bible tell us this?

We need to be as obedient as we are capable of being, and Christ, through His Atonement, will make up the difference.

strange, there's been threads telling us how this is explicitly NOT lds doctrine.

Can't remember exactly where it is, but somewhere in the Bible a father asks Christ to heal his son. The Savior asks him if he believes and his response was "I believe. Help thou mine unbelief", or in other words, "Please make up the difference.

Not other words. Your words. The passage means no such thing.

Do for me what I cannot do for myself" Christ will make up the difference. His contribution will always outweigh ours infinitely, but we are still required to do our best

do our best for what?

. It would be arrogant to go through this life doing anything less than our best and still expect Christ to pick up the tab for our laziness.

What is arrogant is thinking that man can do anything to foster or nurture his own salvation.

[busybee]

Where does the Bible tell us this?

strange, there's been threads telling us how this is explicitly NOT lds doctrine.

Not other words. Your words. The passage means no such thing.

do our best for what?

What is arrogant is thinking that man can do anything to foster or nurture his own salvation.

Do our best to keep the commandments and follow Christ.

You are welcome to interpret the scriptures any way you like. What does that passage mean to you.

If you can lose salvation through evil works, surely you can maintain salvation by obedience and good works. I never said I that works will save us. Only through Christ's atonement can we be saved. After all we can do, our works will never save us. We will always be unprofitable servants.