Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[urroner]

There are a couple of threads going on concurrently where the old Grace vs Works fight is going on. Basically on one side, there are those who say that grace is free (nobody is contending that) and no works are necessary for salvation, period. Those on the other side say that grace is absolutely necessary, but works are necessary for salvation.

I have come up with a little scenario that discusses both of these and hope that this can help people talking past each other.

So far, this is what I have observed in both threads and many other thread before and probably see in many more threads in the future. There is a groups who believe that God chooses whom He wants to save and damns the rest. Grace is totally free, but is only offered to a select few. This grace ensures salvation and can not be rejected. Works, when it comes to salvation, is superfluous.

There is another group who believes that the salvation equation includes both grace and works and that salvation can be lost.

Both groups can quote all sorts of scriptures to back up their beliefs, but the problem come in when one group expects the other group the interpret those scriptures in the same way. Both groups beliefs are consistent with their interpretation of the scriptures.

Here is the scenario:

There are three entities involved in the scenario, Person A (unsaved), Person B (saved/unsaved), and Christ (the Savior).

Scenario setup:

• Firstly, A is on the side of the road, dead (spiritually dead, fallen, not saved, whatever). We could also say that A has never been alive (saved).
  
• Secondly, only Christ can bring that person back to life (bring the person to salvation) in the belief system of both groups.
  
• Thirdly, B desires that A be saved. It doesn't matter whether B is saved or not.
  

We will also say that the end of the scenario is A is either in Heaven, basking in the glory of God or A is in Hell, suffering eternal torment and damnation.

The initial scenario can lead to different paths depending upon what can and can't happen within it.

Any problems so far?

So A is lying there, dead, and B comes along and tells A to get up and do something. What is A going to do? He's going to lie there on the side of the road, dead. B begs and pleads for A to do something. B screams and yells for A to do something. B even starts to pray to God for A to do something. B kicks and hits A and tells him to be up. A still lays on the roadside, dead. There is nothing B can do to influence A to get up since A is dead and can do absolutely nothing. I would say all A could do is rot, but A has nothing to do with that either.

Any problems so far with this scenario?

Here comes Christ. Now, only Christ can raise A from the dead. Now Christ has two choices, 1. raise the person from the dead, 2. be like the Levite or the high priest and walk on by.

Now, since A is dead, A can't ask Christ to raise him. He can't even look pleadingly at Christ or even ask Christ to not worry about him and walk on by. A just lays on the roadside, dead.

Path 1

Christ walks on by and does nothing. A, in the end, goes to Hell since he isn't saved.

Is this path possible? Will Christ intentionally pass by A like the Levite and the high priest did in the parable of the good Samaritan?

Why would Christ pass the person up and not want to raise the dead man? Doesn't Christ love the dead man?

But let suppose that Christ does stop and raises A from the dead. It doesn't matter what B does do or doesn't do. B is an extraneous variable that has nothing to do with the equation of A's salvation. B, when it comes to the salvation of B is useless.

Are we agreed so far in this scenario? For the sake of my post and time, I'm going to say we are. It not that I agree with this scenario, but just for the sake of discussion.

Christ has now raised A from the dead, now this is where it get tricky because there are several ways this scenario can play out.

Path 2

Does A receive salvation and go to Heaven because he was raised from the dead by Christ no matter what he does? It doesn't matter if A lies on the roadside and does nothing or if A gets up and does something. No matter what A does, A is guaranteed salvation. This is the only scenario where A's salvation is based solely upon grace and nothing else. A can not accept or reject salvation. Works plays no part in A's salvation.

Path 3

A different path this scenario takes is this, A can either get up and do something or just lie there and do nothing. If A does nothing, then A has rejected salvation and loses salvation or else A can accept the gift and do something and go to Heaven. A can even initially accept the gift and later reject it.

If this path is the correct path, then works are part A's salvation equation. He has to do something for his salvation. He even has to do something for his damnation. He can either accept or reject the gift from Christ.

What is not considered is whether A can accept the gift after rejecting it or reject it after accepting it, but this really isn't important since this still involves works on the part of A.

So, to sum everything up, these are the three paths that I can think of:

1. Without grace, there can be no salvation. Works alone or not at all can get us saved.

2. In one of the paths, Christ passes up A, doesn't raise him from the dead, and A goes to Hell. A can do nothing about it nor can anybody else. Why Christ passed A up is not important. It wasn't anything A had done or hadn't done. Christ just chooses to pass A up for whatever reason and A goes to Hell. It doesn't matter whether A is an old man, a middle age woman, or even a new born child, A is damned.

3. In another path, Christ raises A up from the dead. No matter what A does, A has salvation. No work is involved. A can not accept nor reject the gift of salvation.

4. In the final path, Christ raises A up from the dead and A can accept or reject the gift. If A accepts the gift, A goes to Heaven. If A rejects the gift, A goes to Hell. A accepts salvation by doing good works.

Is there another path that this scenario can take?

[shalamabobbi]

I see a problem..

you have left out a bible..

maybe you could rewrite it so that Jesus smacks the dead person upside the head with a bible to bring him to life.

[annewandering]

A could accept and not do anything. He can reject and not do anything. He has the option.

[urroner]

A could accept and not do anything. He can reject and not do anything. He has the option.

That's in there. Path 3.

[Sargon]

4. In the final path, Christ raises A up from the dead and A can accept or reject the gift. If A accepts the gift, A goes to Heaven. If A rejects the gift, A goes to Hell. A accepts salvation by doing good works.

Is there another path that this scenario can take?

A Calvinist might clarify that A does have a choice in choosing salvation, but that God is so persuasive there is no way A would choose otherwise. "Irresistible grace."

[johnny]

urroner

Basically on one side, there are those who say that grace is free (nobody is contending that) and no works are necessary for salvation, period. Those on the other side say that grace is absolutely necessary, but works are necessary for salvation.

We are not saved according to works of righteousness but according to his mercy, we are justified by his grace.

This grace ensures salvation and can not be rejected. Works, when it comes to salvation, is superfluous.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

There is another group who believes that the salvation equation includes both grace and works and that salvation can be lost.

If it be works then it is no more grace.

Path 1

Christ walks on by and does nothing. A, in the end, goes to Hell since he isn't saved.

Those who do not believe are damned.

But let suppose that Christ does stop and raises A from the dead. It doesn't matter what B does do or doesn't do. B is an extraneous variable that has nothing to do with the equation of A's salvation. B, when it comes to the salvation of B is useless

"B" can be the one that preaches the gospel.

Christ has now raised A from the dead, now this is where it get tricky because there are several ways this scenario can play out.

God who is rich in mercy quickens us that are dead in in sins.

Path 2

Does A receive salvation and go to Heaven because he was raised from the dead by Christ no matter what he does? It doesn't matter if A lies on the roadside and does nothing or if A gets up and does something. No matter what A does, A is guaranteed salvation.This is the only scenario where A's salvation is based solely upon grace and nothing else. A can not accept or reject salvation. Works plays no part in A's salvation.

His salvation depends on if he believes or not believes. By grace we are saved through faith.

Path 3

A different path this scenario takes is this, A can either get up and do something or just lie there and do nothing. If A does nothing, then A has rejected salvation and loses salvation or else A can accept the gift and do something and go to Heaven. A can even initially accept the gift and later reject it.

Through faith "A" can receive the free gift of righteousness. By not believing he is damned.

If this path is the correct path, then works are part A's salvation equation. He has to do something for his salvation. He even has to do something for his damnation. He can either accept or reject the gift from Christ.

Works are not part of A's salvation equation, faith is. He has to believe, with the heart he believes. He can either believe or not believe.

So, to sum everything up, these are the three paths that I can think of:

1. Without grace, there can be no salvation. Works alone or not at all can get us saved.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith, it is the gift of God.

2. In one of the paths, Christ passes up A, doesn't raise him from the dead, and A goes to Hell. A can do nothing about it nor can anybody else. Why Christ passed A up is not important. It wasn't anything A had done or hadn't done. Christ just chooses to pass A up for whatever reason and A goes to Hell. It doesn't matter whether A is an old man, a middle age woman, or even a new born child, A is damned.

"A" is damned if he does not believe.

3. In another path, Christ raises A up from the dead. No matter what A does, A has salvation. No work is involved. A can not accept nor reject the gift of salvation.

"A" is saved if he believes, no work is involved.

4. In the final path, Christ raises A up from the dead and A can accept or reject the gift. If A accepts the gift, A goes to Heaven. If A rejects the gift, A goes to Hell. A accepts salvation by doing good works

.

"A" receives the free gift of righteousness by faith, not by doing works.

Is there another path that this scenario can take?

Another path is grace and faith.

[urroner]

Is belief an action on our part or is it something that God forces us to do?

[johnny]

urroner

Is belief an action on our part or is it something that God forces us to do?

With the heart man chooses to believe or not believe.

[Lamanite]

Can we even agree on the definitions?

Please someone define for us the LDS definitions of:

Grace

Works

Mercy

Justice

Big UP!

Lamanite

[coolrok7]

There are a couple of threads going on concurrently where the old Grace vs Works fight is going on. Basically on one side, there are those who say that grace is free (nobody is contending that) and no works are necessary for salvation, period. Those on the other side say that grace is absolutely necessary, but works are necessary for salvation. . . .

Is there another path that this scenario can take?

The Biblical example I would appeal to to answer the op is the Phillipian jailer experience of Paul as recorded in Acts 16. The jailer asks Paul, â??what must I do to be saved?â?

His answer is to the point (for you urroner, only read the bolded part which is sufficient for the point Iâ??m making, the rest is for context):

But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyoneâ??s chains were loosed. And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, â??Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.â? Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, â??Sirs, what must I do to be saved?â? So they said, â??Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.â? Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. (Acts 16:25-34)

In Romans Paul tells us:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, â??The man who does those things shall live by them.â? But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, â??Do not say in your heart, â??Who will ascend into heaven?â??â? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, â??â??Who will descend into the abyss?â??â? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? â??The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heartâ? (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, â??Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.â? For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For â??whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.â? How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

â??How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,

Who bring glad tidings of good things!â? (10:5-15)

Also Peterâ??s experience with Gentiles, read Acts 10.

The debate rages on and will until Jesus returns. What is needed is to tell people the Good News of Jesus and the salvation offered which is what Paul told the jailer.

Whether or not one believes that is an individualâ??s choice to make, to believe or not believe. Jesus takes care of bringing us to maturity. Our job is to tell them the truth, not water it down or distort it and to come to maturity in what it means to be a Christian. Justification first followed by Sanctification.

Our job also is to give warning concerning the coming of false prophets and teachers that come even in Jesusâ?? name, warned about by Jesus and the apostles.

[Flyonthewall]

Can we even agree on the definitions?

Please someone define for us the LDS definitions of:

Grace

Works

Mercy

Justice

Big UP!

Lamanite

Let me add: Faith and Belief.

I have seen a lot of people use "faith" and "belief" as simply a mental leaning, where as most, if not all, LDS view those as much more. Faith without works(actually doing something) is no faith at all or is dead, and belief without trying to do the things you believe in is not really a belief at all, but merely a mental leaning.

The most common back and forth is: LDS believe salvation by grace through faith, but faith requires works or it is dead, before salvation(exaltation) is effective.

Other "traditional" christians believe salvation by grace through faith, but works come after salvation.

Is this somewhat close or agreeable?

[urroner]

The Biblical example I would appeal to to answer the op is the Phillipian jailer experience of Paul as recorded in Acts 16. The jailer asks Paul, â??what must I do to be saved?â?

Belief - active or passive? Something that we have to do or something that we don't have to do? If it's something we have to do, is it considered a work?

Our job also is to give warning concerning the coming of false prophets and teachers that come even in Jesusâ?? name, warned about by Jesus and the apostles.

How can one recognize a false prophet? Can there still be prophets today? If somebody says they are a prophet of God, can we assume automatically that that person is a false prophet? cool, do you believe there are prophets today or that they are things of the past and never to be again?

[johnny]

urroner

Belief - active or passive? Something that we have to do or something that we don't have to do? If it's something we have to do, is it considered a work?

Belief is of the heart. I would not consider it "a work".

How can one recognize a false prophet? Can there still be prophets today? If somebody says they are a prophet of God, can we assume automatically that that person is a false prophet? cool, do you believe there are prophets today or that they are things of the past and never to be again?

There are many prophets in today's church. We can recognize a false prophet by testing their words against what inspired scripture reveals.

[Grothar]

And who decides what is inspired scripture? Who decides what that scripture reveals?

Grothar, adds to the discussion

[urroner]

urroner

Belief is of the heart. I would not consider it "a work".

Okay Johnny, let's look at the scripture you quoted.

â??Sirs, what must I do to be saved?â? So they said, â??Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.â?

The man said "...what MUST I DO to be saved?" Did he ask what God had to do? Did he ask what Jesus had to do? Did he ask what he had to do?

And what was the response? Was the response one of the following:

a. God needs to do.....

b. Jesus needs to do....

or

c. You need to do....

Apparently he was told that he had to do something and what was that something?

Now, if he was told that he had to do something, should he consider that it's not something that he had to do rather somebody else was going to do it? What a peculiar way of interpreting that scripture. I honestly believe that if he had to do nothing, OIOW not do any works, the response would have been "Hey, you don't have to do squat. It's all been done," but it was anything like that.

[johnny]

urroner

Okay Johnny, let's look at the scripture you quoted.

See below,

• Rom.10 ([9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.)
  

I honestly believe that if he had to do nothing, OIOW not do any works, the response would have been "Hey, you don't have to do squat. It's all been done," but it was anything like that.

Belief is not nothing.

[NauvooSaint]

True Faith bears Fruit (works)

When we accept Christ we become a new creature in Him. Anything that we do by way of good works or producing fruit is not credited to us for our glory, but are the works/credit/glory of Jesus Christ in our lives. They are His works. The fruit/works are evidence and/or a response of a changed heart/life in Jesus Christ...not tally marks to earning salvation.

With those thoughts in mind...do LDS/Mormons have the right frame of mind or viewpoint in relation to their works in/outside of the temples? Is it evidence and/or a response of a changed heart/life in Jesus Christ or more earning exaltation/godhood?

I realize there is some confusion between Christians and LDS/Mormons on the terms: Salvation vs Exaltation.

Regards,

Bradley.

[Mudcat]

And who decides what is inspired scripture? Who decides what that scripture reveals?

Grothar, adds to the discussion

The Holy Spirit for the first one.

The Holy Spirit for the second one.

[shalamabobbi]

Rom.10 ([9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.)

Because, if you believe that, you will obey his commandments which he gave as part of his gospel plan..

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,

[urroner]

True Faith bears Fruit (works)

When we accept Christ...

So we have to do something.

I keep hearing "you must accept Christ," "you must believe," or "you must have faith." First I am told that I have to do something, then I am told that I don't have to do something. Then when I question that contradiction, I am told that I don't have to do anything by accepting Christ, believing, or having faith. But that gives me a really empty feeling that maybe I don't understand plain English anymore. From what I understand of English, my first language, "to believe," "to accept" or "to have faith" all active and not passive, these all mean that I have to do something.

Could someone please help me understand the inconsistencies that I have listed? Has my understanding of the language I have spoken for the past 55 years changed so much?

[shalamabobbi]

The debate rages on and will until Jesus returns. What is needed is to tell people the Good News of Jesus and the salvation offered which is what Paul told the jailer.

It is interesting to note here that Paul receives a direct opening of the heavens personally and yet lacks authority to preach Jesus and share the message. He has to bow beneath the authority Jesus placed upon the earth when he said "ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.."

Acts 13:2,3 ..the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away,

Acts 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him(Paul) down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.

Acts 9:17 Ananias..putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord..hath sent me, that thou.. mightest be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 ..and arose, and was baptized..

19 Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus

20 And he preached Christ in the synagogues,..

[Grothar]

The Holy Spirit for the first one.

The Holy Spirit for the second one.

I entirely agree, but I was hoping that Johnny would break his trend and give me a consistent answer.

Grothar, does this

[Mudcat]

I entirely agree, but I was hoping that Johnny would break his trend and give me a consistent answer.

Grothar, does this

Sorry Grothar,

Didn't mean to slow your roll.

However, I would say Johnny is pretty consistent.

Its just that he is consistently Catholic.

[Grothar]

let me rephrase then.

I hoped he would give me a good answer or concede the point.

So far he hasn't even given me a bad one.

Grothar, chuckles

[Lamanite]

Sorry Grothar,

Didn't mean to slow your roll.

However, I would say Johnny is pretty consistent.

Its just that he is consistently Catholic.

Because you are a middle aged white male..."Slow your roll" is the cooooooolest thing I've ever heard you say!

Back to topic at hand

Lamanite