Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[ERayR]

Give it up folks can't you see johnny is infallable. He reads, he interprets, the thinking is done.

[urroner]

Give it up folks can't you see johnny is infallable. He reads, he interprets, the thinking is done.

Did you really mean to say "done," or did you mean to say "dumb?"

[charity's child]

urroner

I Cor. 15:29 back's up my position the apostles did not practice baptism for dead and that the Mormon practice is not supported by the Bible.

then you don't believe in resurrection. Because the scripture clearly states that if they do baptisms for the dead there must be a resurrection. To believe the statement is that they do not do baptisms for the dead clearly implies that they do not because there is no resurrection. Which is it?

[ERayR]

Did you really mean to say "done," or did you mean to say "dumb?"

I was meaning that for each of us after johnny has spoken the thinking is done. I didn't say how lucid it was. Per johnny it is infallable.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Here is a good example of not understanding the various usages of saved. Salvation from physical death is the resurrection, and is automatic. Salvation from sin, is something different and requires repentance and obedience.

Resurrection from physical death can be damnation or salvation (John 5:29).

Sanctification of the spirit is being made clean through the atonement of Christ. To be made clean through the atonement of Christ requires repentance and obedience...as preached by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

Earlier you said "salvation does not require anything" ... clearly it requires something as you have indicated.

Interesting...the commandments of God have nothing to do with salvation. So again, using this line of reasoning, we do not have to be a follower of Christ to be "saved".

The commandments of God have do do with salvation ... those who do not believe are damned (Mark 16:16).

Which still does not equate to the concept of traditional christianity's damnation, because the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are still kingdoms of glory which partake in the glory of God, albeit in a limited capacity.

They do not equate with tradition christianity's damnation because christianity's damnation is consistent with the Bible. The Bible reveals that "all liars" are cast into the lake of fire with the devil and the Mormon Church teaches that "liars" are not cast into the lake of fire with the devil but are in a Telestial kingdom.

[charity's child]

Flyonthewall

The Bible reveals that "all liars" are cast into the lake of fire with the devil and the Mormon Church teaches that "liars" are not cast into the lake of fire with the devil but are in a Telestial kingdom.

the lake of fire comes before that. Don't worry, it doesn't last that long.

[Billy]

Did I not ask you specifically Billy for clarification of what you meant?

You did ask for clarification. Here is your question.

BTW, what do you mean by "outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ." Is loving Christ outside of faith alone?

To which I replied

Loving Christ is a natural reaction to what Christ has done for you, but is it a condition FOR salvation? No.

You don't love Christ because it is a checklist thing to do FOR salvation, you love Christ because of what he has done for you.

And if you feel the need to call faith a work see John 6 quote below. I quess I don't understand how faith in Christ and accepting his sacrifice for you on the cross is a work. Accepting a gift--to me--is not a work.

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[urroner]

I was meaning that for each of us after johnny has spoken the thinking is done. I didn't say how lucid it was. Per johnny it is infallable.

Johnny has been playing this game for years. I'm just trying to find out if he's capable of a decent discussion or if he has really reached a mental plateau in the arena of discussion and stuck in a colloquy couloir. I fear it's the latter.

[johnny]

urroner

It is a game, though it's not much fun. You still haven't told me how they support your position other than they back up your position. Your position still isn't any clearer than it was before, but that is what I fear, you don't want your position to be clear since you are afraid that it can't withstand any type of scrutiny. Honestly Johnny, I think you are right that it won't.

What is clear that you have not told me how they don't support my position.

[ERayR]

Johnny has been playing this game for years. I'm just trying to find out if he's capable of a decent discussion or if he has really reached a mental plateau in the arena of discussion and stuck in a colloquy couloir. I fear it's the latter.

From my observation the answer is NO. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[Bsix]

I have heard the back and forth arguments on the faith/grace/works/judgement debate for decades.

I come from a traditional Christian background and converted to Mormonism as a young man.

I confess that I find the grace/faith interpretation from apologist Christians (as articulated by Johnny) to be completely illogical from a common sense perspective as well as an interpretation of what is written in the Bible. Even if you left the LDS point of view out of the discussion, it still would not make sense.

I am unmoved by their interpretation of the Bible. (As my interpretation does not move them.)

Intestingly enough, most everyday Christians tend to instinctively think along the LDS point of veiw when left to describe how faith, grace, works and judgement combine. That is...unless they are trying to explain the concept as compared to Mormonism.

The vast majority of regular Christians I have met believe that we are saved by Grace. We cannot save ourselves through our own works because we are all sinners. These Christians believe that we must believe (have faith) in Jesus as Lord and Savior. They also believe that we must follow Jesus' commandments by doing good and avoiding evil. They also believe that we will be judged and rewarded based on who we were...our faith in Jesus and the the things we do in this life.

In a very practical sense, the LDS view of faith/grace/works/judgement are remarkably similar to what everyday traditional Christian believe and live.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

charity's child

then you don't believe in resurrection. Because the scripture clearly states that if they do baptisms for the dead there must be a resurrection. To believe the statement is that they do not do baptisms for the dead clearly implies that they do not because there is no resurrection. Which is it?

I believe in resurrection.

[ERayR]

I have heard the back and forth arguments on the faith/grace/works/judgement debate for decades.

I come from a traditional Christian background and converted to Mormonism as a young man.

I confess that I find the grace/faith interpretation from apologist Christians (as articulated by Johnny) to be completely illogical from a common sense perspective as well as an interpretation of what is written in the Bible. Even if you left the LDS point of view out of the discussion, it still would not make sense.

I am unmoved by their interpretation of the Bible. (As my interpretation does not move them.)

Intestingly enough, most everyday Christians tend to instinctively think along the LDS point of veiw when left to describe how faith, grace, works and judgement combine. That is...unless they are trying to explain the concept as compared to Mormonism.

The vast majority of regular Christians I have met believe that we are saved by Grace. We cannot save ourselves through our own works because we are all sinners. These Christians believe that we must believe (have faith) in Jesus as Lord and Savior. They also believe that we must follow Jesus' commandments by doing good and avoiding evil. They also believe that we will be judged and rewarded based on who we were...our faith in Jesus and the the things we do in this life.

In a very practical sense, the LDS view of faith/grace/works/judgement are remarkably similar to what everyday traditional Christian believe and live.

Regards,

Six

That is my experience too.

[charity's child]

urroner

I Cor. 15:29 back's up my position the apostles did not practice baptism for dead and that the Mormon practice is not supported by the Bible.

1 Cor 15:29 clearly states the apostles practiced baptism for the dead and that the Mormon practice is supported by the Bible.

Isaiah 48:3-5 back's up my position that there is one God and that the Mormon doctrine of "three Gods" is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

Isaiah 48:3-5 clearly states that those who worship at statues are heretics

Revelation 15:4-8 back's up my position that objects in a vision are not the actual objects.

Revelation 15:4-8 backs up my position that plagues will come (if they aren't already here - hint, hint)

[johnny]

charity's child

the lake of fire comes before that. Don't worry, it doesn't last that long.

Sounds like it is "for ever and ever"

[charity's child]

charity's child

I believe in resurrection.

Ergo, if you believe that scripture, you must also believe in baptism for the dead. Or do you just not believe that scripture?

[urroner]

Urroner replies,

Again you are trying to split hairs and add stipulations to faith/belief alone by your comment.

Loving Christ is a natural reaction to what Christ has done for you, but is it a condition FOR salvation? No.

You don't love Christ because it is a checklist thing to do FOR salvation, you love Christ because of what he has done for you.

And if you feel the need to call faith a work see John 6 quote below. I quess I don't understand how faith in Christ and accepting his sacrifice for you on the cross is a work. Accepting a gift--to me--is not a work.

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Some sincere questions (Honestly, I'm not trying to be a pain.):

1. If the love of Christ is not a condition for salvation, the we can be saved if we hate and reject Christ?

2. When we Mormons keep the commandments, it's not because we love the Lord, but it's because we have a checklist of things that we need to do. Is this what you are inferring?

3. Again, it might be a matter of definition, but it seems to me that if I have to accept Christ, then I have to do something and if I have to do something, then I consider that a "work." There I gave a definition for "work." It might not be the best, but it is a definition. Work is something I have to do or something or somebody other than God has to do.

So Billy, how would you refine that definition to tell me it is without simply telling me what it isn't.

Besides, how do you know that the words interpreted as works, grace, faith, and belief that the authors of the autographs of the book in the Bible used mean the same as how you interpret them? You know, it's that old "English love/Greek eros, philia, and agape" problem.

Edited post since what was posted wasn't what I typed.

[ERayR]

Ergo, if you believe that scripture, you must also believe in baptism for the dead. Or do you just not believe that scripture?

charity's child: Trying to get johnny to commit to a point is like trying to pin water to wax paper. Unless you have time to waste don't bother.

[urroner]

charity's child: Trying to get johnny to commit to a point is like trying to pin water to wax paper. Unless you have time to waste don't bother.

No, no, no, no!!!! It's not "pin water to wax paper." I realize you are a reality newbie around it, but the phrase we use is "nail green jello to the wall." I'm watching you now.

[charity's child]

charity's child: Trying to get johnny to commit to a point is like trying to pin water to wax paper. Unless you have time to waste don't bother.

I'm just sitting here trying to avoid things I should be doing. In other words, all the time in the world (at least for this evening)

[ERayR]

No, no, no, no!!!! It's not "pin water to wax paper." I realize you are a reality newbie around it, but the phrase we use is "nail green jello to the wall." I'm watching you now.

Sorry about that. Can I ever make it up, first ofence and all. Please, Please.

[johnny]

Bsix

I confess that I find the grace/faith interpretation from apologist Christians (as articulated by Johnny) to be completely illogical from a common sense perspective as well as an interpretation of what is written in the Bible

Please back up your words with some scripture and some logic ...

In a very practical sense, the LDS view of faith/grace/works/judgement are remarkably similar to what everyday traditional Christian believe and live.

I would disagree. ... Mormon doctrine (grace ... all we can do) does NOT equal Bible doctrine (grace ... faith ... not works)

[urroner]

Sorry about that. Can I ever make it up, first ofence and all. Please, Please.

I won't report you to the mods this time, but be assured, the many Julianns are watching you. They are many and they are one.

[ERayR]

Bsix

Please back up your words with some scripture and some logic ...

I would disagree. ... Mormon doctrine (grace ... all we can do) does NOT equal Bible doctrine (grace ... faith ... not works)

Why should anyone here be held to a standard of logic that you don't evn comprehend.

[johnny]

charity's child

1 Cor 15:29 clearly states the apostles practiced baptism for the dead and that the Mormon practice is supported by the Bible.

Which words in 1Cor 15:29 reveal that "the apostles practiced baptism for the dead"?