Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Bsix]

Johnny:

Thanks for the comments and thoughts. You said:

Those who believe do good, those who do not believe do evil.

Now, I am not trying to be argumentative. Your declaration cause me to have questions. So, here they are:

Is this a binary state? Believers do only good and no evil? Unbelievers do evil?

If that is the case, are we to assume that believers are incapable of doing evil? In other words, believers...if they are true believers...will never lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc.?

Do believers ever sin? If so, what seperates them from the unbelievers who sin?

Are believers unders some sort of different judgement standard for the exact same sins that unbelievers are judged by? For example, imagine a "believer" committing adultery with an unbeliever...is the believer's name written in the Book of Life and not judged for the work of adultery...but the unbeliever is judged for the work of adultery and thus not found in the Book of Life? In this instance, does the believer overcome second death and the unbeliever cast down into hell?

Regards,

Six

[ERayR]

Bsix

Those who believe do good, those who do not believe do evil. Those who have done good come forth in the resurrection of life. Those who have done evil come forth in the resurrection of damnation.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith. We show our faith by through works of mercy. Faith is made perfect by doing, Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, he did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose. We keep God's commandments because we love Him.

They who do the works of the flesh shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I am not "grace only", I am grace and faith. Every man is judged according to their works, the work of flesh or the work of the Spirit. Through faith comes the works of the Spirit. Those not in the book of life are cast in the lake of fire with Satan which is the second death.

johnny: You have again expounded Mormon doctrine. Why can't you see what you are saying. We are not so far apart on this doctrine. It is only your blindness to all things Mormon that separates us.

[johnny]

Bsix

Is this a binary state? Believers do only good and no evil? Unbelievers do evil?

Based on the following scriptures I would say it is binary,

• Mark.16 ([16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.)
  
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• John.5 ([29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.)
  
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• Matt.25 ( [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.)
  

[johnny]

ERayR

johnny: You have again expounded Mormon doctrine. Why can't you see what you are saying. We are not so far apart on this doctrine. It is only your blindness to all things Mormon that separates us.

Clearly I am not expounding Mormon doctrine ... we are very far apart. Mormon doctrine is very different than the doctrine revealed by the Bible.

[urroner]

sean0scott

If they are the same, why the extra words "after all we can do"?

I believe they are different ... the bible does not have the words "after all we can do".

Urroner: Johnny, do you believe that 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+2=4. Which is it?

Johnny: They are the same. They are both true.

Urroner: Oh Johnny, if they are the same, why the extra numbers in the first. Get real Johnny.

Does the Bible have to have the words "after all we can do" in it for it to be true? Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? I guess that your belief in the Trinity has just been disproved by your argument. Now, wasn't that a silly argument.

[Billy]

Urroner: Johnny, do you believe that 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+2=4. Which is it?

Johnny: They are the same. They are both true.

Urroner: Oh Johnny, if they are the same, why the extra numbers in the first. Get real Johnny.

Does the Bible have to have the words "after all we can do" in it for it to be true? Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? I guess that your belief in the Trinity has just been disproved by your argument. Now, wasn't that a silly argument.

Because salvation (exaltation) is either based at least to some degree on works OR it is not, but it can't be both. You seem to be having a hard time with this concept. You are quibbling on whether or not belief is a work, but the real differences are: baptism, tithing, temple marriage, church attendance, enduring to the end, and all the many other things that YOU do to help you earn exaltation.

[urroner]

So Billy, can you define "works?" I really don't want to hear what it isn't, that is worthless.

Maybe as a kick-start, is work something that we do on our own volition or a subset thereof, or is it something that is done for us with ours having no choice? If it is a subset of the initial choice, what defines this subset?

BTW, can we be saved if we don't love Jesus?

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Resurrection is automatic. Salvation is not automatic, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Exaltation is not salvation from the second death. All who are saved with not experience second death.

You are correct, salvation from the second death is not Exhaltation...I had in my head the separation from God the Father, but wrote "second death", I stand corrected on that.

Let's say I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior, and He came to redeem the world. Is this enough for salvation? Let's also say that I don't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, but I still believe everything the Bible teaches about Him. Is this enough for Salvation? According to what you are saying, "belief" is all I need.

[johnny]

urroner

Urroner: Johnny, do you believe that 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+2=4. Which is it?

Johnny: They are the same. They are both true.

Urroner: Oh Johnny, if they are the same, why the extra numbers in the first. Get real Johnny.

The reality is ...

Mormon doctrine (grace ... all we can do) does NOT equal Bible doctrine (grace ... faith ... not works)

Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? I guess that your belief in the Trinity has just been disproved by your argument. Now, wasn't that a silly argument.

Where is Joseph Smith's teaching of "three Gods" in the Bible?

[Billy]

So Billy, can you define "works?" I really don't want to hear what it isn't, that is worthless.

Maybe as a kick-start, is work something that we do on our own volition or a subset thereof, or is it something that is done for us with ours having no choice? If it is a subset of the initial choice, what defines this subset?

BTW, can we be saved if we don't love Jesus?

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

[shalamabobbi]

Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

Its actually a gospel law vs law of Moses problem..

And then a 2000 years lost context problem

then a "letter written for saints in Rome, was really written for me" problem

then an english language problem

then a "if I obey Christ's commandments I am offending his grace, insanity" problem..

[urroner]

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Thanks, but that isn't a a very meaningful definition. It leaves everything way too open to interpretation. What you believe that you think you have to do to earn your salvation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ is probably very different from what I believe and even what Johnny believes. A definition that everybody understands differently isn't much of a definition at all.

BTW, what do you mean by "outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ." Is loving Christ outside of faith alone?

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Let's say I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior, and He came to redeem the world. Is this enough for salvation?

Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13).

Let's also say that I don't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, but I still believe everything the Bible teaches about Him. Is this enough for Salvation?

It is not faith only, faith without the spirit or works of mercy is dead (James 2:24-26).

According to what you are saying, "belief" is all I need.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8 ).

[urroner]

FlyonthewallSalvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13).It is not faith only, faith without the spirit or works is dead (James 2:24-26).Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8 ).

Johnny, seriously, are you capable of discussing something with more detail then some throw away statements and quoting scriptures/Tradition without going into detail of how they support your position?I once knew a young man who could look at a piece of music and play it on the piano from memory. He hit every note. He was technically right all the way through the piece, really amazing, but what was sad was he was only capable of playing the notes and never the music. He played the piece with no emotion, it was all monotone. He was totally incapable of interpreting the notes and making the music his. You are kind of like this young man. You just throw scriptures and quotes out left and right, but nobody knows what is going on inside your head. Nobody knows what you are trying to tell us....well, other than you are right and we are wrong and that tends to be a very tiresome note that you hit way to often.

Can you explain to me without throwing a horde of unexplained scriptures and throw-away comments? Am I asking too much?

[johnny]

urroner

Johnny, seriously, are you capable of discussing something with more detail then some throw away statements and quoting scriptures/Tradition without going into detail of how they support your position?

I discuss what the Bible/tradition presents, sometimes the Bible/tradition does not go into more detail.

You just throw scriptures and quotes out left and right, but nobody knows what is going on inside your head. Nobody knows what you are trying to tell us....well, other than you are right and we are wrong and that tends to be a very tiresome note that you hit way to often.

What is even more tiresome is when you avoid presenting your interpretation ... clearly an engineer can read a scripture and offer an interpretation.

Can you explain to me without throwing a horde of unexplained scriptures and throw-away comments? Am I asking too much?

The apostle Paul used scripture to reason with. Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, and for correction. We can search scriptures to see if things are so.

[urroner]

urroner

I discuss what the Bible/tradition presents, sometimes the Bible/tradition does not go into more detail.

What is even more tiresome is when you avoid presenting your interpretation ... clearly an engineer can read a scripture and offer an interpretation.

The apostle Paul used scripture to reason with. Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, and for correction. We can search scriptures to see if things are so.

The apostle Paul also interpreted those scriptures that he quoted. He didn't just quote a scripture and just leave everybody thinking "What the heck?"

If the Bible and tradition don't going into detail, then how do you know you're right?

There is a reason I'm not giving my interpretation of your scriptures, because I realize that my interpretation is very different from yours, I have told you this before Johnny, and all it would end up being is a Bible bash. Do you want a Bible bash where everybody throws out scriptures and says "See, I'm right." You will even bring up tradition, but remember that tradition in much of Christianity is nothing, it's only the private interpretation of a bunch of men from a long time ago. Just ask any EVer.

So Johnny, how can I know what you mean by "works" if you can't define what "works" is?

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13).

In this particular situation, I believe the truth.

It is not faith only, faith without the spirit or works of mercy is dead (James 2:24-26).

But does this have any bearing on salvation? If you are saying the "spirit" is "works of mercy", and required for true faith and salvation, then what makes this any different than what the LDS have been saying all along?

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8 ).

Agreed. We have been saying this all along. What we LDS also say is that faith without works is dead and does nothing. Works, or the actions we DO to follow the teachings of Christ, are what makes our faith effective, or alive. Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom requires that we "walk the walk", as well as "talk the talk".

[ERayR]

ERayR

You appears you differ with the teachings of the Mormon teaches, you say "nothing" and the Mormon Church teaches ""Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation

Johnny, again you are missing the mark. It doesn't say that eternal marriage exhaults us. It says we won't be exhaulted without it. Jesus Christ Exhaults. Eternal marriage is one of your works of faith.

[ERayR]

Because salvation (exaltation) is either based at least to some degree on works OR it is not, but it can't be both. You seem to be having a hard time with this concept. You are quibbling on whether or not belief is a work, but the real differences are: baptism, tithing, temple marriage, church attendance, enduring to the end, and all the many other things that YOU do to help you earn exaltation.

No, not to earn exhaultation but as I pointed out these are what johnny calls works of faith which per his admission are needed or at least recognized.

[johnny]

urroner

The apostle Paul also interpreted those scriptures that he quoted. He didn't just quote a scripture and just leave everybody thinking "What the heck?"

Maybe you could interpret the scriptures I presented like Paul did.

Do you want a Bible bash where everybody throws out scriptures and says "See, I'm right."

By presenting scriptures we can reason from scripture.

So Johnny, how can I know what you mean by "works" if you can't define what "works" is?

From scripture I know that belief is not works.

[LifeOnaPlate]

johnny, can you show me one instance on this message board where you admitted you read something incorrectly, or misrepresented something incorrectly, or otherwise conceded one point in any situation here?

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

But does this have any bearing on salvation? If you are saying the "spirit" is "works of mercy", and required for true faith and salvation, then what makes this any different than what the LDS have been saying all along?

It has bearing on blessings, those who hear the word and do the word shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). Faith is made perfect by doing (James 2:21-23). This is different that what LDS say, LDS say "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". LDS associate it with "saved".

Agreed. We have been saying this all along. What we LDS also say is that faith without works is dead and does nothing. Works, or the actions we DO to follow the teachings of Christ, are what makes our faith effective, or alive. Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom requires that we "walk the walk", as well as "talk the talk".

What I hear LDS say that "salvation without exaltation is damnation". What I do not hear LDS saying is the just live by faith, we are justified by faith (Gal 3:11,24) and that what counts is faith which works by love, we walk and live in the Spirit, good fruit comes from the Spirit (Gal 5:3-25).

[ERayR]

Flyonthewall

It has bearing on blessings, those who hear the word and do the word shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). Faith is made perfect by doing (James 2:21-23). This is different that what LDS say, LDS say "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". LDS associate it with "saved".

What I hear LDS say that "salvation without exaltation is damnation". What I do not hear LDS saying is the just live by faith, we are justified by faith (Gal 3:11,24) and that what counts is faith which works by love, we walk and live in the Spirit, good fruit comes from the Spirit (Gal 5:3-25).

THEN YOU ARE NOT LISTENING. TURN UP YOUR HEARING AID.

[johnny]

ERayR

Johnny, again you are missing the mark. It doesn't say that eternal marriage exhaults us. It says we won't be exhaulted without it. Jesus Christ Exhaults.

That was my point that the LDS church teaches eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation ... you said "nothing.

Eternal marriage is one of your works of faith.

Eternal marriage is not one of my works of faith. Marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12).

[johnny]

ERayR

No, not to earn exhaultation but as I pointed out these are what johnny calls works of faith which per his admission are needed or at least recognized.

Clearly I did not call those items "works of faith". James speaks of works of mercy, those items ARE NOT works of mercy. Works of mercy are for blessings (James 1:22-25).