Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[charity's child]

Again, it might be a matter of definition, but it seems to me that if I have to accept Christ, then I have to do something and if I have to do something, then I consider that a "work." There I gave a definition for "work." It might not be the best, but it is a definition. Work is something I have to do or something or somebody other than God has to do.

Sounds like we have a working definition.I know, I know -

charity's childWhich words in 1Cor 15:29 reveal that "the apostles practiced baptism for the dead"?

"else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all?"In other words - why are they baptized for the dead if there is no resurrection? Do you have a different translation?

[johnny]

charity's child

Ergo, if you believe that scripture, you must also believe in baptism for the dead. Or do you just not believe that scripture?

I believe some practiced baptism for the dead, I don't believe the apostles practiced it.

[shalamabobbi]

The problem is illustrated by the following examples.

Say a christian is trying to knock the LDS on polygamy, so they quote

1 Tim 3:2 A bishop must be.. the husband of one wife..

And they dance away thinking they have scored a point without realizing that they proved the opposite point.

i.e. it follows that some members of the church had more than one wife..

Or they state after hearing

John 9:2 Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

That Jesus answered that the man did not sin - therefore that the scripture does not mean that the apostles believed in a pre-mortal existence.

I once listened in on a christian fireside explaining how the 6 day creation account was scientifically plausible and watched the reaction on the faces of children when he tried to explain how light from the stars was created in transit. Even children with no knowledge of science reacted to the error testified to their spirits by the spirit of truth.

It is this demonstration of flat earth society mentality that has me doubting the usefulness of this board as anything other than casual entertainment..

[charity's child]

Bsix

Please back up your words with some scripture and some logic ...

I would disagree. ... Mormon doctrine (grace ... all we can do) does NOT equal Bible doctrine (grace ... faith ... not works)

hehem - Mormon doctrine - no matter how much we do, only grace can save us. Please be correct in your statements about what we believe. Thank you.

[Billy]

3. Again, it might be a matter of definition, but it seems to me that if I have to accept Christ, then I have to do something and if I have to do something, then I consider that a "work."

Why do YOU think that you have to do some type of works, when the Bible is pretty clear that you are NOT SAVED by your works? Sometimes what seems right to men is not right according to God.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

[urroner]

Bsix

Please back up your words with some scripture and some logic ...

Why do you expect others to do what you won't do? I have yet to see any logic in your posts. Maybe the RCC world is void of logic if you are any type of representative of what it is.

I would disagree. ... Mormon doctrine (grace ... all we can do) does NOT equal Bible doctrine (grace ... faith ... not works)

We know you disagree. Why do you disagree. Is it because you are an RCCer?

Wait, I know some RCCers and they can carry a discussion and back up their beliefs with at least a modicum of logic. Once again, I am forced to believe that you are an outlier.

[charity's child]

charity's child

I believe some practiced baptism for the dead, I don't believe the apostles practiced it.

Do you have some scripture - any scripture - that says "stop baptizing for the dead?" 1 Cor 15:29 will not cut it. It draws a connection between baptism for the dead and resurrection. At no point does it say stop.

[johnny]

charity's child

"else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all?"In other words - why are they baptized for the dead if there is no resurrection? Do you have a different translation?

I am still missing the word that indicates it was an apostle who was practicing this ... maybe you could point it out.

[charity's child]

It is this demonstration of flat earth society mentality that has me doubting the usefulness of this board as anything other than casual entertainment..

once in a while we get a nugget of truth around here. I've found some good answers to questions and resources I would not have found on my own. It's pretty much my only access to the true scholars.

And it's pretty entertaining at times.

[ERayR]

charity's child

I am still missing the word that indicates it was an apostle who was practicing this ... maybe you could point it out.

Can I just say green jello anyone?

[johnny]

charity's child

hehem - Mormon doctrine - no matter how much we do, only grace can save us. Please be correct in your statements about what we believe. Thank you.

Do you believe 2Nephi 25:23 is Mormon doctrine.... if it is "only grace" like you have said then why does 2Nephi 25:23 incclude "after all we can do"?

[charity's child]

charity's childI am still missing the word that indicates it was an apostle who was practicing this ... maybe you could point it out.

"Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians"Paul is writing about resurrection and evidences thereof as backed by the practices of the church. If the church practices baptism for the dead, why would the apostles who lead the church not practice it? Or were they exempt from following Christ?

charity's childDo you believe 2Nephi 25:23 is Mormon doctrine.... if it is "only grace" like you have said then why does 2Nephi 25:23 incclude "after all we can do"?

in other words - no matter what we do, it can never be enough.

[urroner]

Why do YOU think that you have to do some type of works, when the Bible is pretty clear that you are NOT SAVED by your works? Sometimes what seems right to men is not right according to God.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Again, thanks for telling me I'm wrong. I was totally caught by surprise and off-guard by it. I didn't even see it coming. Bam, right out of the blue.

Now that that is over, can you refine my definition without stating what it's not and that I'm wrong.

And that last statement is a dousie of a double edged sword. Does "men" include Evangelicals or are you restricting to to everybody but Evangelicals? You do know you included yourself in that statement, but, in any case, you are right that what seems right to men is not necessarily right to God. It's a truism. You're also saying that sometimes what seems right to men is right according to God, though those aren't the words you used. There are two other sides to that statement, but I won't go into them here, that is, of course, unless you want me to.

[charity's child]

Can I just say green jello anyone?

okay, green jello and walls abound. Maybe it's time to stop avoiding what I'm supposed to be doing right now.

Bye!

[johnny]

charity's child

Paul is writing about resurrection and evidences thereof as backed by the practices of the church. If the church practices baptism for the dead, why would the apostles who lead the church not practice it? Or were they exempt from following Christ?

Which verse indicates it is a practice of the church?

[johnny]

charity's child

in other words - no matter what we do, it can never be enough.

Why are your words different than what the LDS church teaches, see below

• Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  

[urroner]

Can I just say green jello anyone?

In Johnny's case, it's colorless unsolidified jello. We can all see though him without any problem and none of his reasoning is ever very solid.

[ERayR]

In Johnny's case, it's colorless unsolidified jello. We can all see though him without any problem and none of his reasoning is ever very solid.

I think the real problem is that you all don't want to follow johnny's script.

[urroner]

G'night people. My bed beckons me and the boys are having a rather loud, heated discussion and it's way past their and my bedtime. Busy day tomorrow, so I'll see you late tomorrow.

BTW, keep it up Johnny, you almost had me convince of something earlier today.

Edited: In my tiredness last night, I confused the word "get" and "keep." The original posting sounded a little obscene.

[LeSellers]

In Johnny's case, it's colorless unsolidified jello. We can all see though him without any problem and none of his reasoning is ever very solid.

How does t his differ from water?

As for the differences between walls and waxed paper, grist for another mill.

Lehi

[coolrok7]

How does t his differ from water?

As for the differences between walls and waxed paper, grist for another mill.

Lehi

Speaking of Jello (Mormons are famous for jello) you can throw it but it doesn't stick!

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Resurrection from physical death can be damnation or salvation (John 5:29).

This is an LDS beleif

Earlier you said "salvation does not require anything" ... clearly it requires something as you have indicated.

I also said that that was just one usage of the term "saved". All other uses do in fact require something of us.

The commandments of God have do do with salvation ... those who do not believe are damned (Mark 16:16).

So I can believe in the commandments but not obey them and still be "saved" with the full reward of the Father's presence?

They do not equate with tradition christianity's damnation because christianity's damnation is consistent with the Bible. The Bible reveals that "all liars" are cast into the lake of fire with the devil and the Mormon Church teaches that "liars" are not cast into the lake of fire with the devil but are in a Telestial kingdom.

Here is something else you misunderstand...before getting to the Telestial Kingdom, liars etc., they will have already gone through hell. They will spend time there paying the price of their unrepentent sins. They will not get to their kingdom, before their stint in hell is done.

Only sons of perdition will remain in outer darkness, or hell, after their resurrection and judgement.

[Tanyan]

charity's child

Do you believe 2Nephi 25:23 is Mormon doctrine.... if it is "only grace" like you have said then why does 2Nephi 25:23 incclude "after all we can do"?

Darn late to another Grace/Works discussion ! , . Johnny read the entire context of of 2 Nephi 25:23 [ Starting with 2 Nephi 25:1-30 to understand the interpetation of what is happening at that time period [ A Text without context is a pretext]. What is the "All that we can do" according to the context ?.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Speaking of Jello (Mormons are famous for jello) you can throw it but it doesn't stick!

I wonder if Martin Luther and D.r Eck ever threw jellow at one another, of gave each other a big hug .

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

charity's child

Why are your words different than what the LDS church teaches, see below

• Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for."
  

It's all about having a True Pistis In Jesus Christ to have Charis activated and made alive in one's salvation Journey/Quest.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.