urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 urronerListen to this ...http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV1) business, employment, that which any one is occupieda) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than workI still hear profound silence on what you believe Johnny. Shirley you can do bettter.
johnny Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 urronerI still hear profound silence on what you believe Johnny. Shirley you can do bettter.Surely I am done with your sillyness ... have a good night.
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 urronerSurely I am done with your sillyness ... have a good night.Is it true?? I can't believe it!!!!! I have out-johnnied johnny.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Same old same old.You dont need works to be saved, but if you dont have works then you arent really saved, but all you need is faith, but faith with out works is dead, but works dont save you but......That is not true, you are confusing Justification and ongoing Sanctification.Let me illustrate.If a man has been stabbed on the street and you come upon this man and he has 10 minutes to live, what can you do to assure this man entrance into the Celestial Kingdom? Or can you? (assuming no further works/ordinances in the Spirit World)
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 That is not true, you are confusing Justification and ongoing Sanctification.Let me illustrate.If a man has been stabbed on the street and you come upon this man and he has 10 minutes to live, what can you do to assure this man entrance into the Celestial Kingdom? Or can you? (assuming no further works/ordinances in the Spirit World)Are you asking us if we want to kick Christ out of the judgement seat like so many EVers do when they decide that we LDSers are going to Hell? I understand why they do that, but it's a very unChrist-like attitude and action for people who claim to be true Christians
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Are you asking us if we want to kick Christ out of the judgement seat like so many EVers do when they decide that we LDSers are going to Hell? I understand why they do that, but it's a very unChrist-like attitude and action for people who claim to be true Christians
Tanyan Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 http://www.14lds.com/believe2.htm In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 That is not true, you are confusing Justification and ongoing Sanctification.Let me illustrate.If a man has been stabbed on the street and you come upon this man and he has 10 minutes to live, what can you do to assure this man entrance into the Celestial Kingdom? Or can you? (assuming no further works/ordinances in the Spirit World)Alternate scenario - By Faith and use of The Holy Priesthood of GOD The Man recieves a Blessing and the man lives to hear the True Gospel and become a LDS Saint in the Latter Days.
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 I am asking you if it is possible for a man who is about to die to accept Christ as his Savior and without further works and ordinances go to the Celestial Kingdom.Again, that is still up to God, but in your world, can one accept Christ or does Christ accept him?
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Again, that is still up to God, but in your world, can one accept Christ or does Christ accept him?So you think that the LDS ordinances are not necessary for everyone?
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 So you think that the LDS ordinances are not necessary for everyone?Not for those who die as little children. Beside, there is works for the dead. Imagine that.What about those who die without accepting Christ in this life? What do EVers think happens to them? From what I have been told, and I do live in EV country, I understand that they go to Hell.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Not for those who die as little children. Beside, there is works for the dead. Imagine that.I think that this illustrates a major difference between mainstream Christianity and the LDS belief of salvation. Salvation (Celestial equivalent) for mainstream Christianity is based on faith apart from works and the LDS require a certain subset of works/ordinances for entrance into the Celestial kingdom. Bottom line it is either by faith alone OR by works to some extent. Because these are mutually exclusive ideas, they both can't be true, either one is true or the other is true (or a third possibility that they are both not true).What about those who die without accepting Christ in this life? What do EVers think happens to them? From what I have been told, and I do live in EV country, I understand that they go to Hell.If they had an opportunity to hear the gospel and they reject it, then yes I would agree that they would go to hell.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 That is not true, you are confusing Justification and ongoing Sanctification.Let me illustrate.If a man has been stabbed on the street and you come upon this man and he has 10 minutes to live, what can you do to assure this man entrance into the Celestial Kingdom? Or can you? (assuming no further works/ordinances in the Spirit World)This has nothing do to with what I hear so many Evies chat.Billy if I confess Jesus and continue to beat my kids am I still saved?
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 If they had an opportunity to hear the gospel and they reject it, then yes I would agree that they would go to hell.Yep, that is what some of the EVers told me, but many, if not a majority said that even if somebody didn't even know about Christ, if that person didn't accept Christ in this life, that person went to Hell. Do you disagree with the majority of the EVers here in the South?We Mormons believe that everybody gets the chance to accept or reject Christ and the gospel and if they didn't get the chance to do the ordinance that God has asked us to do, then it will be done for them. Sounds like a far cry from damning automatically most of humanity to Hell because they had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place or time like many EVers do.
LeSellers Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 I think that this illustrates a major difference between mainstream Christianity and the LDS belief of salvation. Salvation (Celestial equivalent) for mainstream Christianity is based on faith apart from works and the LDS require a certain subset of works/ordinances for entrance into the Celestial kingdom.There is no "Celestial equivalent" for creedal Christianity. The Celestial Kingdom is nothing at all like what you all imagine "heaven" to be. The question we must ask is "salvation from what?" You see, "salvation" requires there be a danger from which one is saved. Salvation from what?Lehi
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 This has nothing do to with what I hear so many Evies chat.Billy if I confess Jesus and continue to beat my kids am I still saved?MRSR, it doesn't matter, if you are saved, you are saved no matter what you do. Remember OSAS in what it's all about.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 This has nothing do to with what I hear so many Evies chat.Billy if I confess Jesus and continue to beat my kids am I still saved?Do you keep ALL the commandments? Salvation is not based on YOUR righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness. If salvation was based on OUR righteousness, then we would never make it.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Yep, that is what some of the EVers told me, but many, if not a majority said that even if somebody didn't even know about Christ, if that person didn't accept Christ in this life, that person went to Hell. Do you disagree with the majority of the EVers here in the South?I think that God is a fair judge, and if someone had no opportunity to hear about Christ, then a fair judge will not send that person to hell.
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 Do you keep ALL the commandments? Salvation is not based on YOUR righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness. If salvation was based on OUR righteousness, then we would never make it.Logical fallacy - False dilemmaSecondly, you are stating as fact that we believe something, something we have told you we don't believe, but you continue to do so, nothing like lying for Jesus is there Billy.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 There is no "Celestial equivalent" for creedal Christianity. The Celestial Kingdom is nothing at all like what you all imagine "heaven" to be. LehiI could not agree with you more. I do not expect to eventually be a God and have many wives. But I use the term Salvation and use Celestial together because they both represent living with God the Father again. We use words that often have different meanings, which is why we often talk past each other.
urroner Posted December 30, 2008 Author Posted December 30, 2008 I think that God is a fair judge, and if someone had no opportunity to hear about Christ, then a fair judge will not send that person to hell.But Billy, I have been told by many, many EVers that this is the gospel. I have even heard in from televangelists. You must be assuming that you are right and all these other EVers are wrong.Besides, what did you tell me the other day, something like "just because a man thinks something is right doesn't mean God thinks it's right. Remember, the Bible says you must confess Jesus with your mouth to be saved. So this means that if one doesn't confess Christ with ones mouth, one can not be saved. Right from the Bible Billy.
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Logical fallacy - False dilemmaSecondly, you are stating as fact that we believe something, something we have told you we don't believe, but you continue to do so, nothing like lying for Jesus is there Billy.False dilemma is usually a either or dilemma, which I don't see how you gather this from my question about whether or not someone keeps all the commandments?Mola Ram Suda Ram's question really is can someone be saved (Celestial bound) and still break the commandments ? I answer is absolutely yes, because we ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God. But through time we become more holy and live closer to God's laws through sanctification, but we will never be perfect in this life.Secondly, you are stating as fact that we believe something, something we have told you we don't believe, but you continue to do so, nothing like lying for Jesus is there Billy.What don't you believe? I am not sure what this comment is referring to.. . .nothing like lying for Jesus is there Billy.This term gets tossed out a lot here on this board.Let me ask you a question. If the LDS religion is false, would that mean that YOU are "lying for Jesus"?
LeSellers Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 I think that God is a fair judge, and if someone had no opportunity to hear about Christ, then a fair judge will not send that person to hell.Maybe you haven't forgotten everything you learned in Primary. This is certainly not creedal Christian doctrine. I have heard too many times to count that those who do not accept Jesus while in this life are condemned to hell, irrespective of their opportunity to actually hear of Him. What you have proclaimed is LDS doctrine.Lehi
Billy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 But Billy, I have been told by many, many EVers that this is the gospel. I have even heard in from televangelists. You must be assuming that you are right and all these other EVers are wrong.I certainly hope that you are not watching TBNBesides, what did you tell me the other day, something like "just because a man thinks something is right doesn't mean God thinks it's right.CorrectProverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.Remember, the Bible says you must confess Jesus with your mouth to be saved. So this means that if one doesn't confess Christ with ones mouth, one can not be saved. Right from the Bible Billy.Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Correct Your point? (oh, yeah this must be a work, right?)
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