Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[urroner]

urroner

Take your pick since you are the engineer in need of a definition ...

It's suppose to be your definition and I don't think you would want a mere paganistic Mormon picking what you believe. C'mon Johnny, take a stand and pick one. I know that you can do it.

[johnny]

urroner

It's suppose to be your definition and I don't think you would want a mere paganistic Mormon picking what you believe. C'mon Johnny, take a stand and pick one. I know that you can do it.

My stand is with what the Bible reveals ... again you are the one in need of a definition, I would think an engineer has a process on how to pick.

[Billy]

Works, by my definition, means "something that we or another have to do by our or their own volition and is not done by God." If God does part of X and we do part of X on our volition, then the part of X that we do, I consider to be works, by my definition.

For example, God gives us a free gift, this is not works, it's grace. We accept the free gift, that is works, by my own definition. Of course, if God forces us to accept the free gift, then it's not works because we didn't do it with our own volition, we were forced to do so. If we reject that free gift on our own volition, then that rejection becomes part of our works.

I think that if you step back and look at the spirit of what "works" are and not the "letter" of works are, then it is fairly clear. Most people would not consider that act of accepting a gift as a work. By the same token if you are presented with a gift you have a choice to accept the gift or reject that gift, by your reasoning accepting or rejecting that gift is a work.

I think that the spirit of what the verses, that have been given on multiple occasions, say is that the things that you do to try to please God do not JUSTIFY you before God. Justification before God is by faith in Jesus and the sacrifice that he gave you and me and that you have a choice to accept that free gift or to reject that gift. By thinking that you are doing things to please God you run the risk of pride, just like what was seen in the time of Christ with the Pharisees.

[Zakuska]

I think that the spirit of what the verses, that have been given on multiple occasions, say is that the things that you do to try to please God do not JUSTIFY you before God. Justification before God is by faith in Jesus and the sacrifice that he gave you and me and that you have a choice to accept that free gift or to reject that gift. By thinking that you are doing things to please God you run the risk of pride, just like what was seen in the time of Christ with the Pharisees.

Thats not what James tells us...

James 1

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Remember... Abraham was a beleiver when he offered Isaac on the Altar so what justufied him before God was his works filled faith.

What justified Abraham before man and the world was the mere fact that God chose him. Not becuase of his works, because his works before God started working with him were just as evil as any other mans.

[Billy]

Thats not what James tells us...

James 1

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Remember... Abraham was a beleiver when he offered Isaac on the Altar so what justufied him before God was his works filled faith.

What justified Abraham before man and the world was the mere fact that God chose him. Not becuase of his works because his works before God started working with him was just as evil as any other mans.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ??but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

[Zakuska]

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ??but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Abraham wasn't a beleiver (ie wasn't before God, thus Paul says "but not before God" in verse 2) when he was justified in Romans 4.

Your problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of Paul and James. James is speaking of Pure religion and being Justified and undfiled before God. (See James 1:27)

How does God know a true beleiver? "By their fruits ye shall know them"

Was not Enoch a true beleiver? What set him appart?

Heb. 11: 5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

HIS FAITH FILLED WORKS!

[Billy]

How does God know a true beleiver? "By their fruits ye shall know them"

So you believe OR don't believe that works contribute to YOUR exaltation?

[Billy]

Sounds like works to me. It's something that I have to do with my own volition or do you believe that God will force us to ask Him?

So again the point of your line of reasoning is what exactly?

That belief is a work, thus EV's work, so therefore LDS are no different except the number of works is slightly more that EV's?

[Zakuska]

So you believe OR don't believe that works contribute to YOUR exaltation?

I beleive the Bible.... "Every man will be rewarded according to their Works."

Ps. 62: 12

12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Matt. 16: 27

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Pet. 1: 17

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[Billy]

I beleive the Bible.... "Every man will be rewarded according to their Works."

So you believe that works contribute to your salvation, correct?

[urroner]

urroner

My stand is with what the Bible reveals ... again you are the one in need of a definition, I would think an engineer has a process on how to pick.

How can I understand what you mean when you say "works" if you don't know what you mean or you won't express it to others. Sorry johnny, my mind reading ability went out a long time ago when I decided to not be a teenager any more.

[Tanyan]

The problem with being an "LDS JEDI KNIGHT" is that you are siding with the eastern mindset that is the basis for their being a good/dark side to the force (the belief of the maker of the Star Wars movies who tends toward Buddhism/eastern philosophy which is incompatible with Christianity).

Why you insist on tryng to justify it as well as Mormonism which is not becoming of a "Christian" as you claim to be.

Somehow these words don't ring true with the Bible:

"After all we can do" is not a Biblical teaching Tanyan! No matter how many times you declare it is. It is referred in Mormonism as "exaltation to godhood". Not "salvation by grace through faith" as is taught by Paul in Ephesians:

LDS General Authority Milton R. Hunter in his book, "The Gospel Through The Ages," had this to say concerning the Bible (additional comments by others):

Works are a product of having true faith in Jesus as the Savior. They are not what gets ones sins paid for, which is the blood of Jesus. The atonemnt.

Ah coolrok my Lutheran Synod friend/critic, Agape greetings to you.The LDS JEDI KNIGHT Title has me proclaiming truth. Just as the Post Biblical Christians took previous pagan symbols that pre-date Christianity [Cross/Fish as examples] and re-interpeted them into a Christian context I have done nothing less than the same. Have you not read **** Staub book :"Christian Wisdom Of The JEDI MASTERS" in whom he is a Christian award winning broadcaster,writer,speaker whose work focuces on interpeting faith and culture, and is the Director of the center for Faith and Culture and adjunct professor at Seattle Pacific University. His interviews are a popular feature on Christianity Today's website. He serves on the board of Image:A Journal Of Religion & Arts and plays a strategic role in the C.S Lewis Foundation. Surly also you are aware of the book entitled: The Gospel According to Star Wars by John C. McCdowell. Pray tell coolrok, pray tell. According to these Authors they do ring true using the Biblle as a text.

All we can do is a Biblical Teaching coolrok if you would just read the entire context of 2 Nephi 25:23 [The Whole Chapter, along with the Whole of chapter 26 as well]. You will understand what "All you can do" means [Also read Alma 24:11 in context to see more about "All you can do" in context.

Yes coolrok it is SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ! AMEN The problem is coolrok is your understanding of that understanding of being Saved by Grace [Charis] ALONE = The Way in which one is Saved/Exhalted into the Heavenly abode, and how that "Free Gift" is activated and made alive in ones Temporal/Spiritual Journey/Quest to allow them to go to Heaven ?, it's through FAITH [Pistis]ALONE which is ACTION, deeds Born out of Love For The LORD OF LIFE JESUS CHRIST to serve him and our neighbors.The Sixth Law of the Harvest coolrok is a True companion of 2 Nephi 25:23.

True our response/actions/works to the AWESOME Gift of Grace do not Save us but they keep us Saved for they show The Monarch of The Universe GOD The Father, His Son GOD The Vice Regent JESUS CHRIST, GOD The Holy Ghost The Great Testator that you want Salvation/Exhaltation.

Thanks again for sharing your critical thoughts to add to your adinfinentum crtical thoughts of yesteryear.

May you have a Blessed Evening. In His Debt/Grace, "Salvation Comes In And Through His Atoning Blood And In no other Way" [bruce R. McConkie, April 1985 General Conference] AMEN And AMEN.

[johnny]

urroner

How can I understand what you mean when you say "works" if you don't know what you mean or you won't express it to others. Sorry johnny, my mind reading ability went out a long time ago when I decided to not be a teenager any more.

I express the complete definition since this is what the lexicon presented ...

[urroner]

So again the point of your line of reasoning is what exactly?

That belief is a work, thus EV's work, so therefore LDS are no different except the number of works is slightly more that EV's?

Is works something that we want to do or don't want to do? You make it sound like works are something that we don't want to do.

I love my work and go there willingly. I work with the space program and really don't consider it work, it's a pleasure. I love my job. But work it still is.

Now belief, it's not a one sided deal. God gives us the seed and we decide what to do with that seed, so I don't consider belief/faith/salvation to be completely one or completely the other, it's a combination, but then again, what I believe salvation is is different from what you believe salvation is.

Does this answer your question about if I believe belief is based on works.

[urroner]

urronerI express the complete definition since this is what the lexicon presented ...

But is it your definition? No.Once again Johnny, you demonstrate that you are too afraid to take a stand, you are only capable of mimicking others.

So you believe OR don't believe that works contribute to YOUR exaltation?

What rewards are given to those who are saved? Are all the rewards the same?

[Tanyan]

So you believe that works contribute to your salvation, correct?

Works do not Save, but they Show that you appriciate the Free Gift of Salvation and want to stay Saved, they keep you in that Covenant of Jesus Christs Blood Sacrifice that one Makes at there Baptism when they Make Jesus Christ LORD OF THERE LIFE/LORD/SAVIOR/GOD/KING/MASTER.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[johnny]

urroner

But is it your definition? No.

Once again Johnny, you demonstrate that you are too afraid to take a stand, you are only capable of mimicking others.

You asked for a definition and I give you a definition.

[urroner]

urroner

You asked for a definition and I give you a definition.

My mistake - I assume some understanding on your part. I seek personal definitions for "works," definitions of the participants of this thread. Now if bluebible was a participant, I would be more interested, but alas, bluebible isn't here.

[johnny]

urroner

My mistake - I assume some understanding on your part. I seek personal definitions for "works."

Clearly your mistake ...

[urroner]

urroner

Clearly your mistake ...

So, where's your definition?

[johnny]

urroner

So, where's your definition?

My definition aligns with the definition as presented in the lexicon.

[urroner]

urroner

My definition aligns with the definition as presented in the lexicon.

I'm listening

[Billy]

Is works something that we want to do or don't want to do? You make it sound like works are something that we don't want to do.

I love my work and go there willingly. I work with the space program and really don't consider it work, it's a pleasure. I love my job. But work it still is.

Now belief, it's not a one sided deal. God gives us the seed and we decide what to do with that seed, so I don't consider belief/faith/salvation to be completely one or completely the other, it's a combination, but then again, what I believe salvation is is different from what you believe salvation is.

Does this answer your question about if I believe belief is based on works.

I think human nature dictates that we deserve what we get, which really means that we get what we work for. Those who work hard are the ones who often have the better job, wife, money, house. However, Christianity is counterintuitive to human nature in many ways, such as the leader is one who serves, not who is served etc. This is also evident in God's plan of salvation. He says that to live with God again (LDS Celestial kingdom) it is not based on ones own efforts, but on reliance on Christs sacrifice and by placing our faith in Him and Him alone apart from our works. This goes totally against human nature because of our pride we expect that we get what we deserve, which is based on our own efforts/works. Recall the parable of the workers in the vineyard who all got paid the same wage. The ones who worked longer expected to be rewarded more than others because they worked harder than those who came at the last hour.

What rewards are given to those who are saved? Are all the rewards the same?

Salvation (Celestial equivalent) is based on faith.

Rewards IN heaven are based on works, but recall that getting to heaven is based on faith.

[johnny]

urroner

I'm listening

Listen to this ...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G2041&t=KJV

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

johnny quoted a bible dictionary for works, but the thread has wandered all over the place since then and before I was able to join in the fracas, that I was looking for a good place to jump in.

Works, by my definition, means "something that we or another have to do by our or their own volition and is not done by God." If God does part of X and we do part of X on our volition, then the part of X that we do, I consider to be works, by my definition.

For example, God gives us a free gift, this is not works, it's grace. We accept the free gift, that is works, by my own definition. Of course, if God forces us to accept the free gift, then it's not works because we didn't do it with our own volition, we were forced to do so. If we reject that free gift on our own volition, then that rejection becomes part of our works.

Christ said "if you love me, keep my commandments." Person A says he loves Christ and doesn't keep his commandments because it's not necessary. He voluntarily doesn't keep the commandments so that is his works. Person B say he loves Christ and keeps his commandments voluntarily, so this is his works. Did God force either to keep or not keep the commandments?

I even asked several friends who are Evangelical, I have a few, I live in the South, to give me a good definition for "works" and interestingly, they couldn't come up with one. They told me that they had never really thought about it. Billy, don't you find that interesting?

I then gave them my definition and they said that it sounded good, but some of them commented that that definition had a few problems with it, but they didn't know how to fix it and these are Evangelicals who are very educated and know the Bible very well. Billy, maybe you can help.

So believing on him is works. Good catch there Billy. I wouldn't have noticed that.

Sounds like works to me. It's something that I have to do with my own volition or do you believe that God will force us to ask Him?

Same old same old.

You dont need works to be saved, but if you dont have works then you arent really saved, but all you need is faith, but faith with out works is dead, but works dont save you but......