Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Zakuska]

urroner

I would consider those "works of righteousness which we have done". We are not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done", we are saved according to God's mercy and God's grace.

Who ever said we were?

Accepting Christ is a choice, we can believe or not believe. Belief is of the heart, believing is not a work.

John 6

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, faith is believing in God and believing what he has said. Our doing shows our faith, by doing our faith is perfected.

Very Good. And only a Perfected Faith saves. So works are part of the salvation equation.

By doing God's commandment to love one another, it is God working in us to do his will. Without the spirit we can do nothing, through faith we bring forth the fruit of the spirit. Faith without the spirit is dead.

This is pure religion and undefiled before God. (James 1:27) So works are part of the equation.

[Tanyan]

Note the Amplified Bible's take on this verse.

Philippians 2:13[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.

Yes he is working in mankind [me as well] but I can choose to react positivly or negativly to that work.

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[revelation]

That works without faith will do nothing for us. Works + faith justify the individual through God's grace. God grants grace to those with faith and works.

If God grants Grace only to those with faith and works, then faith and works are what justify us and not grace.

But Abraham was not justified by works. He was justified by his faith. And because Abraham was justified by faith, he then went on to do good works.

We are justified by faith alone. However, a true faith is never alone and does result in good works.

[Billy]

Yes he is working in mankind [me as well] but I can choose to react positivly or negativly to that work.

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Again it goes back to YOU and YOUR works

[revelation]

Some one who knows God is justified by their faith filled works.

If someone is justified by their faith filled works, then they are justified by works instead of Grace. When we point out that the LDS believes they are saved by works, we get it from statements such as your own wherein you say we are justified by faith and works.

We believe we aren't justified by faith and works, we believe we are justified by faith alone. Works are the result of our being justified, works are not the cause of our being justified.

[urroner]

If God grants Grace only to those with faith and works, then faith and works are what justify us and not grace.

But Abraham was not justified by works. He was justified by his faith. And because Abraham was justified by faith, he then went on to do good works.

We are justified by faith alone. However, a true faith is never alone and does result in good works.

Did Abraham have to do anything before he had faith or was it something that God gave to him, complete and perfected?

[Tanyan]

Again it goes back to YOU and YOUR works

Born out of the Gift of Faith to LOVE To serve GOD The Father and Jesus Christ along with my fellow man.

Hope you are having a blessed New years Day. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[revelation]

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Only a perfect Faith Merits a perfect Reward.

And lest you wrest James 2 from its context... James is speaking of being Justified before God for we read the setup for Chapter 2 in the last verse of Chapter 1...

James 2 isn't speaking about our being justified before God by our works, James 2 is speaking about our being justfied before MEN by our works. Those people whom James is speaking with were already justified BEFORE GOD by faith alone. James is speaking to believers not unbelievers.

[Tanyan]

If someone is justified by their faith filled works, then they are justified by works instead of Grace. When we point out that the LDS believes they are saved by works, we get it from statements such as your own wherein you say we are justified by faith and works. We believe we aren't justified by faith and works, we believe we are justified by faith alone. Works are the result of our being justified, works are not the cause of our being justified.

Charis through Pistis ! .

James 2 isn't speaking about our being justified before God by our works, James 2 is speaking about our being justfied before MEN by our works. Those people whom James is speaking with were already justified BEFORE GOD by faith alone. James is speaking to believers not unbelievers.

BOTH !.

[revelation]

Coolrok, one of the problems between LDSers, RCCers, and EVers, is that we use the same words, but with different meanings, so you can quote apostles and prophets and think they are saying one thing, but they are really saying something else and we understand what they are saying, but we don't understand the point you are trying to make since you understand it differently.

I have had people, former EVers, who have joined the Church and some who left the Church to become EVers, and they can see the wide rift between us, not a wide rift as in doctrine as often as it is a wide rift in terminology. I agree there is plenty of doctrinal differences, but the biggest problem is we have a habit of talking past each other.

For instance, I believe that works are simply anything that we have to do for our salvation that Christ or God doesn't do for us. So, for me, accepting Christ is something I have to do and so I consider it a work. Now, you probably don't consider it to fall under your definition of work and that's no problem. As long as each of us knows what the other means by "works."

If I have to have faith, I consider that works, since it's something I do. If I keep the commandments, it's works for me, even if I do it out of love for Christ and Heavenly Father since it's something I have to do.

Of course, if God and Christ are forcing me to do any of the above, then it's not works.

So, with my definition, if I have to love Christ to be saved, there are works involved. Of course, there is grace involved in it also since without the Atonement, salvation would be impossible, no matte how many good works I have.

The key part of my salvation is grace, but by my definition of "works," so are works.

Again, its statements such as these that tell us you are saved by works. What is it that you think we are missing then? I believe our definition of works is the same. We believe works are anything we do in accordance with the Will of God. It appears you believe the same.

However, just because we aren't saved by our works, that doesn't mean we don't do good works. Here is what we believe: Once we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, it then produces in us a faith that is never alone and that faith is accompanied by good works as James 2 teaches.

[Billy]

Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"Ungodly" is the key word there Billy. Is an "Ungoldy person" a beleiver? NO they are not.

Verse 2 that you highlighted drives the point even closer to home. "but not before God"

You and I as beleivers are Justified in a different way than Chi the rice farmer who has never heard the name Jesus Christ.

We have become the seed of Abraham (aka the Godly, or if you'd prefer, Children of God through Adoption) and as beleivers we are Justified as James describes. Faith, Grace AND works.

Zakuska,

Can you rephrase what you think Romans 4:5 means, I did not quite understand your explanation of it from your previous post.

[Tanyan]

We are Saved by Charis [Grace] "through" Pistis [Faith]. Faith is a work 1 Thess 1:3. The Thess Faith was the same as any True N.T Saint/Christian.

tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[urroner]

Again, its statements such as these that tell us you are saved by works. What is it that you think we are missing then? I believe our definition of works is the same. We believe works are anything we do in accordance with the Will of God. It appears you believe the same.

However, just because we aren't saved by our works, that doesn't mean we don't do good works. Here is what we believe: Once we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, it then produces in us a faith that is never alone and that faith is accompanied by good works as James 2 teaches.

revelation, do we Mormons believe that we can be saved without the Atonement?

Do you believe that we believe that we can be saved only by good works?

[Tanyan]

A non LDS Christian view of this topic - http://www.bible.ca/g-faith-only.htm

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[revelation]

Did Abraham have to do anything before he had faith or was it something that God gave to him, complete and perfected?

Abraham simply believed God (faith alone) and that was credited to him as righteousness, Abraham was justified BEFORE GOD through faith alone:

All of the passages such as:

Romans 4:2 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ??but not before God. (This verse tells us that Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD by his works, Romans then goes on the explain that Abraham was justified(credited with righteousness) through faith alone:

Romans 4:3 "What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (no works, only faith alone)

Romans 4:9 " We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." (faith alone, no works)

Romans 4:13 "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." (not through works(law is mentioned) but by faith alone)

Galatians 3:6 "Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (He believed God, he didn't do works for God)

So all of the above passages are pointing to the moment that Abraham was credited with righteousness:

Genesis 15:6 " Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

It is right here in Genesis 15:6 that Abram is credited with righteousness by believing just what God had just said. It is right here in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD.

Then later, (in Genesis beggining in 22:1) Abraham, who was saved by faith alone in Genesis 15:6 apart from anything he did, NOW goes and does something:

Genesis 22:1... " 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about...."

[urroner]

A non LDS Christian view of this topic - http://www.bible.ca/g-faith-only.htm

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

The author makes an excellent point that nowhere in the Bible does it say "by faith alone."

There are many Bible passages that show the essentiality of faith, that we are saved by faith, justified by it, and so on. Every one of these passages is to be believed and accepted. But there is one similar thing about all these passages on faith, not one single passage ever says we are saved by faith only. There are not such passages in the Bible.

I wonder if any of the believers of sola fide can point out a scripture that says "saved by faith only." Apparently, there are plenty of mainstream Christians out there that don't believe that. Well, so much for that supposed unity on the core doctrines.

[urroner]

Abraham simply believed God (faith alone) and that was credited to him as righteousness, Abraham was justified BEFORE GOD through faith alone:

This belief, did God force Abraham to believe in Him or was this something that Abraham chose to d or IOW, did Abraham have a choice to believe or not believe?

[Tanyan]

Abraham simply believed God (faith alone) and that was credited to him as righteousness, Abraham was justified BEFORE GOD through faith alone:

All of the passages such as:

Romans 4:2 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ??but not before God. (This verse tells us that Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD by his works, Romans then goes on the explain that Abraham was justified(credited with righteousness) through faith alone:

Romans 4:3 "What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (no works, only faith alone)

Romans 4:9 " We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." (faith alone, no works)

Romans 4:13 "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." (not through works(law is mentioned) but by faith alone)

Galatians 3:6 "Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (He believed God, he didn't do works for God)

So all of the above passages are pointing to the moment that Abraham was credited with righteousness:

Genesis 15:6 " Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

It is right here in Genesis 15:6 that Abram is credited with righteousness by believing just what God had just said. It is right here in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD.

Then later, (in Genesis beggining in 22:1) Abraham, who was saved by faith alone in Genesis 15:6 apart from anything he did, NOW goes and does something:

Genesis 22:1... " 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about...."

http://www.haderek.ca/articles/way/trustandobey.htm

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[ERayR]

This faith vs works discussion reminds me of a line in the movie "The Posieden Adventure" there were two ministers who were friends but were constantly arguing faith vs works. Finally the young one comes with a line that I shall always remember. He said (as I remember) "...I grew up in a third story walk up flat and in the winter when the heat went out you could pray forever but unless you got up and broke up the furniture and started a fie you would still be cold".

We are saved by faith through the grace of God by the atonement of Jesus Christ but if we don't do something(keep my commandments) we shall forever remain out in the cold.

[urroner]

http://www.haderek.ca/articles/way/trustandobey.htm

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

From the article:

In John 3:16, the word translated as â??believethâ? comes from the Greek verb, pisteuw (pisteuo, Strongâ??s #4100), which primary means to â??believeâ? or to â??acknowledge some fact or event.â? However, a more complete understanding, which incorporates elements of an earthy Hebraic wisdom (as opposed to the Greco-Roman approach that overemphasizes the intellect), would be to â??trustâ? or to be â??steadfast and strong.â?

Pisteuo is related to the noun, pistiv (pistis, Strongâ??s #4102). The use of the Greek word pistis is an attempt to express the deeper richness of the Hebrew word hnwma (emunah, Strongâ??s #530). Although pistis connotes a meaning more akin to a mental â??beliefâ??, i.e. a conviction based on evidence, emunah connotes more of a relationship between two parties â?? a relationship based on â??trustâ??, â??steadinessâ?? or â??certainty.â?? In fact, as opposed to the â??intellectual faithâ?? of pistis, emunah conveys a deep covenantal relationship based on faithfulness and love. Due to the Hebraic nature of Kethuvei ha-Notzrim, author David H. Stern (translator of the â??Complete Jewish Bibleâ?? and the â??Jewish New Testament Commentaryâ??) often uses the term â??trusting faithfulnessâ?? for pistis in an attempt to convey the broader meaning, more in line with the richness of emunah.

So, where are we so far? John 3:16 could be read more meaningfully as, â??For Elohim so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten [unique, one of a kind] son, that whosoever trusts in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.â?

But does this nuance in translation really change anything? Some would argue that it does not. We would affirm that it does.

Consider these two verses that follow in the text from John 3:16. â??For every one that doeth [practices, undertakes, perpetrates, commits] evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds [works] should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds [works] may be made manifest, that they are wrought in Elohimâ? (John 3:20-21). Clearly, deeds are important â?? not just mental or intellectual belief.

[revelation]

revelation, do we Mormons believe that we can be saved without the Atonement?

Do you believe that we believe that we can be saved only by good works?

Urroner, no I don't believe that you believe you can be saved only by good works. And with that I agree! Nobody can be saved only by works. But what you don't understand about our beliefs is that even if you say you are justified by faith and works, then this also is being saved by good works from our perspective(not your perspective).

In our beliefs, if grace only comes to those who are justified by "faith and works" then the "faith and works" are the cause of grace and therefore this is salvation by works also because grace doesn't come to those who believe they are justified by faith and works.

But we believe that we are either saved entirely by grace(the only way) or entirely by works(impossible for us), there is no middle ground wherein you might think you are standing.

When we say: "entirely by grace" that means we are justified by grace through faith alone. "faith and works" falls into the salvation by works category.

[urroner]

Urroner, no I don't believe that you believe you can be saved only by good works. And with that I agree! Nobody can be saved only by works. But what you don't understand about our beliefs is that even if you say you are justified by faith and works, then this also is being saved by good works from our perspective(not your perspective).

In our beliefs, if grace only comes to those who are justified by "faith and works" then the "faith and works" are the cause of grace and therefore this is salvation by works also.

But we believe that we are either saved entirely by grace or entirely by works, there is no middle ground wherein you might think you are standing.

When we say: "entirely by grace" that means we are justified by grace through faith alone. "faith and works" falls into the salvation by works category.

Is there any single verse in the Bible that says "saved by faith only" or something that unmistakably says that?

[Tanyan]

Charis of Jesus Christ through True Pistis in Jesus Christ. .

Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[revelation]

This belief, did God force Abraham to believe in Him or was this something that Abraham chose to d or IOW, did Abraham have a choice to believe or not believe?

Faith and grace are both gifts from God:

Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Abraham had the freedom to NOT believe what God had told him.

[urroner]

Faith and grace are both gifts from God:

Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Abraham had the freedom to NOT believe what God had told him.

So you are saying that he chose to have faith, it was something he did.