Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[shalamabobbi]

Why don't you try assuming the bible is inerrant

I like basing my faith in something more than assumptions..

Joseph is a mere man.

Peter was a mere man.

Isaiah was a mere man.

Moses was a mere man.

Abraham was a mere man.

Where did the bible come from? Is the thing created greater than the creators?

There was a kingdom of God in operation which the bible is a mere record of.

The record is not that kingdom.

[urroner]

God is in charge of men, not the other way around. God is more powerful than man. God is able to keep his word inerrant he is a God who does miracles!

However, Satan knows the word is inerrant so the only way he can lead you away from God is to convince you that God's word has errors. Once he gets you to believe that, he can teach any doctrine he wants to. The skys the limit for him then!

Then Satan introduces Joseph Smith with all his false teachings and contradictions to scripture and you believe it!

You have eaten of Satan's bait! He has reeled you in!

Alas revelation, it has been you that Satan has reeled in. He so cleverly has changed overtime, how man interpreted the scripture in the Bible and through the wiles of evil men, had them change what the scriptures said soon after the death of the Apostles.

Satan, through a pagan ruler, forced the Church to form a certain creed, until the pagan rules was pleased with the wording of the creed, and now mainstream Christianity bases a major part of its belief on that pagan ruler inspired creed.

His kingdom is still one of authority and order. God's word is our sole authority. My conscience is not subject to any man. My conscience is alone subject to the word of God. Therefore I am kept safe from falling into the hands of false teachers and prophets who teach in contradiction to the word of God.

Except for the part of the Bible being our sole authority and another part, I agree with most of what you just said. That other part is that you haven't been kept safe from falling into the hands of false teachers and prophets since mainstream Christianity is chuck full of false teachers and prophets and much of mainstream Christianity follow them around like blind sheep.

These verses only contradict to those who interpret one verse and ignore the other verses in scripture.

So in reality, if the scripture contradicts something you believe, don't hire Joseph Smith to twist the other scripture out of place to fit your flawed interpretation but instead take it as a sign that something you believe right now, is wrong! Then learn to interpret scripture so that both verses are true and not contradictory!!

Scripture says the UNGODLY are justified. Joseph says the GODLY are justified. Complete contradiction! Why don't you try assuming the bible is inerrant and just learn what it then says. Just try it! Read it! AS IS!

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture.

The word of God doesn't contradict the word of God, but the Bible isn't the complete word of God, as you assume it is and revelation, your interpretation of the the Bible isn't the word of God either. Which version of the Bible should we accept as the one that the Lord would want us to read? Which Bible is closest to the words that went from God's lips to the writers' ears? Is it an English Bible? Is it the Hebrew Bible, the LXX, or even a Greek Bible? How about the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible or the Catholic Bible which contain extra books or maybe one of Eastern Orthodox Bibles which do not have some of the books that the Bibles used by the Western Christianity use?

I also find it rather humorous when you expect us to start assuming that what you believe is the truth and yet you aren't willing to return the favor. revelation, why don't you try assuming the Bible is errant? Which is worse, you asking us to assume things as truth that we don't believe is the truth or our asking you to assume things as truth that you don't believe is the truth? Wait, we have never done that, but you have.

Someone who tells the truth. What do you mean by a "yes man"?

A yes-man is one of the following: adulator, apple polisher, ***-kisser, backscratcher, backslapper, bootlicker, brownnoser, courtier, doormat, doter, fan, fawner, flatterer, flunky, groupie, hanger-on, kiss-up, lackey, minion, teacherâ??s pet, or toady.

The truth is, I believe in God's word and you believe in Joseph's word and Joseph is a mere man.

But by believing in the Bible, you are believing in the words of mere men also, men like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jude, Matthew, Paul, Peter, Habakkuk, and those who wrote much of the first half of the OT. In fact, mere men wrote every book in the Bible. Revelation, beware when you point the finger at us since your own fingers point back at you.

I find it interesting that most of the arguments used against us Mormons can easily be used against those who used them. I also find it interesting that many of those who use these arguments have a fit when those same arguments are used against them and usually, the only retort they have is saying "You're attacking the Bible." Hogwash, we are just exposing the weakness of your silly arguments.

If you lob a grenade at me and I pick up that grenade and lob it back at you and you aren't prepared to deal with it when it goes off in your face, don't call me evil for doing what you are doing and stop lobbing silly logic grenades at others.

[revelation]

Alas revelation, it has been you that Satan has reeled in. He so cleverly has changed overtime, how man interpreted the scripture in the Bible and through the wiles of evil men, had them change what the scriptures said soon after the death of the Apostles.

Satan, through a pagan ruler, forced the Church to form a certain creed, until the pagan rules was pleased with the wording of the creed, and now mainstream Christianity bases a major part of its belief on that pagan ruler inspired creed.

Except for the part of the Bible being our sole authority and another part, I agree with most of what you just said. That other part is that you haven't been kept safe from falling into the hands of false teachers and prophets since mainstream Christianity is chuck full of false teachers and prophets and much of mainstream Christianity follow them around like blind sheep.

The word of God doesn't contradict the word of God, but the Bible isn't the complete word of God, as you assume it is and revelation, your interpretation of the the Bible isn't the word of God either. Which version of the Bible should we accept as the one that the Lord would want us to read? Which Bible is closest to the words that went from God's lips to the writers' ears? Is it an English Bible? Is it the Hebrew Bible, the LXX, or even a Greek Bible? How about the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible or the Catholic Bible which contain extra books or maybe one of Eastern Orthodox Bibles which do not have some of the books that the Bibles used by the Western Christianity use?

I also find it rather humorous when you expect us to start assuming that what you believe is the truth and yet you aren't willing to return the favor. revelation, why don't you try assuming the Bible is errant? Which is worse, you asking us to assume things as truth that we don't believe is the truth or our asking you to assume things as truth that you don't believe is the truth? Wait, we have never done that, but you have.

A yes-man is one of the following: adulator, apple polisher, ***-kisser, backscratcher, backslapper, bootlicker, brownnoser, courtier, doormat, doter, fan, fawner, flatterer, flunky, groupie, hanger-on, kiss-up, lackey, minion, teacherâ??s pet, or toady.

But by believing in the Bible, you are believing in the words of mere men also, men like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jude, Matthew, Paul, Peter, Habakkuk, and those who wrote much of the first half of the OT. In fact, mere men wrote every book in the Bible. Revelation, beware when you point the finger at us since your own fingers point back at you.

I find it interesting that most of the arguments used against us Mormons can easily be used against those who used them. I also find it interesting that many of those who use these arguments have a fit when those same arguments are used against them and usually, the only retort they have is saying "You're attacking the Bible." Hogwash, we are just exposing the weakness of your silly arguments.

If you lob a grenade at me and I pick up that grenade and lob it back at you and you aren't prepared to deal with it when it goes off in your face, don't call me evil for doing what you are doing and stop lobbing silly logic grenades at others.

In the garden of Eden, Satan tempted Eve to doubt God's word when he said: "Did God really say...?" Adam and Eve fell for that temptation and the whole world has been subject to physical death, spiritual death and decay as the consequence ever since. And this is exactly the trap you have fallen into.

You have nothing, no measuring stick to see if what you believe is really true.

For me, the Bible is the measuring stick of all that is false or true. Without it, Satan has free reign to teach men what he wants. He can introduce any doctrine he desires to and make it look christian. He has the victory with you. For you believe in another gospel than we do. That is how far you have gone from the teachings of the Bible. But Only one gospel saves. Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Mathew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"

[LeSellers]

What is "just plain stupid" is a misunderstanding you have of our beliefs.

There are two doctrines. One is "Justification" and the other is "sanctification"

Justification = We are justified by faith alone and not by obedience to the commandments. Herein we are saved.

Sanctification = We desire to be obedient to the commandments out of thanks for our completed Justification above.

Justification is the horse and sanctification is the cart. The horse must come before the cart. We do not mix these two doctrines together.

With you all, I am speaking about the doctrine of Justification, not sanctication.

Does that make our doctrine clearer?

Not in the least.

Since there is no difference in rewards according to your doctrine (as I have heard it explained many times), what difference does it make. Once saved, it doesn't matter any more, because you are "in heaven". With your apostate understanding of the rewards of God, you have a binary situation: either you are in heaven or not.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b...p;t=KJV#conc/48

and

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...G5046&t=KJV

Since these say, if you actually read them, just what I did, what's your point?

ἔσεσθε is not an imperative, it is a future. Thus it does not mean "Be ye therefor perfect", it means "you will therefor be perfect".

τέλειος does not mean "perfect" in the way you mean it. It means "complete", filling the measure of its creation. I will be pleased to post the entire etymology and definitions, but you already know this is correct, since you carefully read the Thayer's included in your Blue Letter Bible links.

The context of James shows us that James isn't refering to the Law of Moses, but he is refering to the law of Jesus because he calls it the Royal law of: "Love your neighbor as yourself" That is the law of Jesus! That is what you call the "higher law" That is also the moral law of Moses. Read it for yourself:

James 2:8-11 " If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

"Found in scripture" tells us that he is referring to the Law of Moses because there was only the Old Testament as scripture in James' day. The New Testament was a much later invention.

Jesus and James were quoting

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus is the book of the Old Testament where we find the majority of the Law of Moses.

You must be perfect even before you can begin to follow Jesus and one sin against Jesus' law of "love your neighbor as yourself" is like a pin popping the entire balloon of the law. One sin and you have broken the entire law, ALL OF IT.

Mathew 19:21 " If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

And again James 2:8-10 in context "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Again, you ignore the fact that "τέλειος" does not mean "perfect" in the way you mean it.

"τέλειος" means complete. When you understand that, you will recognize that your argument is wholly fallacious.

Furthermore, it makes no sense at all to ignore obedience (which, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you do) because, whether you claim to be justified or sanctified, you simply cannot reasonably claim that God will allow someone into His Kingdom who has not even attempted to live His commandments.

We LDSs understand the distinction between justification and sanctification. The difference between your understanding and ours is that with us, it means something. It means nothing at all to you.

Then, too, Jesus was still talking about the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses no longer applies, He fulfilled it. It is finished.

I said your repentance requires you to overcome your sin. That is what you also just said.

No, you said we had to overcome the sin first. We do not. We do have to overcome the sin, and I hope you do, too. Because if you do not so believe, you must then believe that sinful people can live in heaven. That is ridiculous.

But my point is, if you must overcome your sins to be forgiven, you won't ever be forgiven because you won't ever overcome your sins in this life.

We will be forgiven, and will will overcome our sins. Neither of these is a personal accomplishment. Both require God's intervention.

I am perfect in quite a number of commandments, and will achieve perfection in others over time. I admit that I will not achieve perfection in everything in mortality, and that I am dependent on God for two things: one, even if I do achieve perfection in one thing, I have achieved it, and that means I was once sinful in that thing. Therefor, I must be forgiven. That's what the Atonement does.

But for some things, I will need to be purged of sin. That is what the Holy Ghost does. It may be that this will happen in mortality, but that is rare. When this happens I am no longer sinful. The sins themselves are forgiven, and the natural man, the carnal, sensual, and devilish man is purged clean, no longer exists.

Lehi

[Hoops22]

Since there is no difference in rewards according to your doctrine (as I have heard it explained many times),

Then your bona fides just went out the window, 'cause you need to listen better. Or are you purposefully misrepresenting this idea?

[ERayR]

Revelation:

I don't think there is an LDS poster on this board that hasn't taken a good look at what the LDS church teaches and weighed it very carefully only to be accused of followin blindly. We have had every aspect of our beliefs disected and analyzed. Now I invite you to do the same with yours. Just maybe you will see the inconguencies in your own beliefs. If you are to be honest with us and yourself you must put your own beliefs to the same scrutiny as you have ours.

That said I have my doubts that you are capable of that as it apears you have your mind made up and to H..l with facts.

[LeSellers]

Then your bona fides just went out the window, 'cause you need to listen better. Or are you purposefully misrepresenting this idea?

Okeh, 'splain. 'Cause I have heard a whole passel of creedal Christians tell me that there is one heaven and all who go there go equally. (Not their exact words, but their exact meaning.)

Lehi

[busybee]

Do you always do your best?

No, and that's were mercy steps in. The laws of justice requires that if I fail to keep the commandments I must pay the price. Through the Atonement the law of Mercy kicks in and Christ makes up the difference, if I realise my mistakes, repent and carry on trying to do the best I can.

My faith is Christ brings about my repentance and urges me to become better. Becoming better is all we're required to do. We can only be made perfect in Christ. Without Him evenour best efforts are useless because we will always fall short. God knew this, thus the Atonement. It is beautifully simple. Do your best, and Christ will make up the rest.

[shalamabobbi]

In the garden of Eden, Satan tempted Eve to doubt God's word when he said: "Did God really say...?" Adam and Eve fell for that temptation and the whole world has been subject to physical death, spiritual death and decay as the consequence ever since. And this is exactly the trap you have fallen into.

Except that Adam and Eve heard it from God's lips, they didn't read it in a record that they assumed to be true..

You have nothing, no measuring stick to see if what you believe is really true.

We have no assumed measuring stick..

We have the true measuring stick, the Holy Ghost, which is the true source of the bible (original as it fell from the lips of prophets and apostles, except the song of Solomon..)

For me, the Bible is the measuring stick of all that is false or true. Without it, Satan has free reign to teach men what he wants.

Actually without the Holy Ghost as your measuring stick Satan has free reign to teach whatever interpretation that he wants..

He can introduce any doctrine he desires to and make it look christian.

ditto

He has the victory with you.

ditto

For you believe in another gospel than we do.

ditto

That is how far you have gone from the teachings of the Bible.

ditto

But Only one gospel saves.

ditto

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

ditto

Mathew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"

And how shall that be accomplished?

Note:

Romans 11:17-24

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cast off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

This allegory of Zenos of the tame and wild olive trees is a part of the OT that is now lost to the bible. It is a portion of God's word that shall never pass away however. Nephi brought a copy of the OT up to his day with him to America. It contained this allegory of the olive trees. It has been restored in the BOM where Jacob quotes from the brass plates(OT that Nephi brought). I will not post it as it is a rather long scripture, 77 verses, but the LDS are the ones who can rightly claim "his words shall never pass away" as the bible is full of references to lost and missing scriptures that ought to be part of the bible according to your interpretation of Matt 24:35. Also a witness that testifies of itself is not sufficient. The law of witnesses requires more that one witness.

[Hoops22]

Okeh, 'splain. 'Cause I have heard a whole passel of creedal Christians tell me that there is one heaven and all who go there go equally. (Not their exact words, but their exact meaning.)

Lehi

Fair enough.

Rewards are given based on our service. Works, if you will. Salvation is a free gift independent of works.

[revelation]

Not in the least.Since there is no difference in rewards according to your doctrine (as I have heard it explained many times), what difference does it make. Once saved, it doesn't matter any more, because you are "in heaven". With your apostate understanding of the rewards of God, you have a binary situation: either you are in heaven or not.

I have said nothing about what my beliefs are about rewards in heaven. Your comment must be intended for someone else. And it is a topic for a different thread.

Since these say, if you actually read them, just what I did, what's your point? ἔσεσθε is not an imperative, it is a future. Thus it does not mean "Be ye therefor perfect", it means "you will therefor be perfect".τέλειος does not mean "perfect" in the way you mean it. It means "complete", filling the measure of its creation. I will be pleased to post the entire etymology and definitions, but you already know this is correct, since you carefully read the Thayer's included in your Blue Letter Bible links.

Again, you ignore the fact that "τέλειος" does not mean "perfect" in the way you mean it. "τέλειος" means complete. When you understand that, you will recognize that your argument is wholly fallacious.

The link I gave you shows that Strongs 5046 means "perfect"

Here is the entry from my strongs concordance for 5046:

"Completeness - of full age, perfect finished-that which has reached its end or term, limit, hence, complete, full, lacking nothing.Complete (in various applications of labour, growth, mental and moral character etc) Synonym: Irreproachable, blameless, complete, perfect."

The word "be" as in G2071 does mean "Will be" That is not the problem, what you are missing is "when" will we go from becoming perfect to being perfect.

For example, an alcoholic is not perfect. If he is commanded to "be perfect" the question is when is he expected to reach the goal of perfection. Is he expected to become perfect over his life time or is he expected to become perfect overnight. In either case, the words: "Will be" works.

An alcoholic can in one single day go from imperfection to perfection simply by not drinking any more. Or and alcoholic can overcome his drinking over a life time. In either case, the words: "Will be" works. We are all sinners, Jesus commands us to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. So the question isn't: does "be perfect" mean "be perfect" or "become perfect".

The question is when are we to be perfect and finish becoming perfect. Are we to be perfect right now, before we even begin to follow Jesus? Or are we to become perfect over a lifetime of following Jesus?

We let scripture interpret scripture: Mathew 19:21 "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."In the above verse, Jesus expects the man to do what he has to in order to be perfect (not become perfect). Once he has done that, THEN he can follow Jesus. So the command to be perfect means in an instant, not over a lifetime.

"Found in scripture" tells us that he is referring to the Law of Moses because there was only the Old Testament as scripture in James' day. The New Testament was a much later invention.

The apostles eye witnessed all that Jesus did and taught. They were eye witnesses to Jesus' teaching when he said: "love your neighbor as yourself" They didn't need the NT, that were eye witnesses!The NEW TESTAMENT Christians were called to love their neighbor as themselves! For that was what Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount. See for yourself:

Galatians 5:13-15 "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8 "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right."

Jesus and James were quoting Leviticus is the book of the Old Testament where we find the majority of the Law of Moses.

Like I said. They were not only quoting Leviticus, but also JESUS!

Furthermore, it makes no sense at all to ignore obedience (which, in spite of your protestations to the contrary, you do) because, whether you claim to be justified or sanctified, you simply cannot reasonably claim that God will allow someone into His Kingdom who has not even attempted to live His commandments.

Anyone who keeps the faith goes on to obedience. Anyone who sees free grace as a license to sin, does not have true saving faith.

We LDSs understand the distinction between justification and sanctification. The difference between your understanding and ours is that with us, it means something. It means nothing at all to you.

It does mean something to us.Let me ask you a question: If you were saved by grace alone so that right this minute you could know all your sins are forgiven, you could know that God has made you perfect forever, you could know that you HAVE eternal life. Would you go on to thank God or would you use it as a license to sin?I am asking what YOU would do, not what you think others will do.

Then, too, Jesus was still talking about the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses no longer applies, He fulfilled it. It is finished.

I have showed you how the New Testament Christians were expected to keep the law of "love your neighbor as yourself"

No, you said we had to overcome the sin first. We do not. We do have to overcome the sin, and I hope you do, too. Because if you do not so believe, you must then believe that sinful people can live in heaven. That is ridiculous.

Do you mean you don't have to overcome the sin first to be forgiven?

We will be forgiven, and will will overcome our sins. Neither of these is a personal accomplishment. Both require God's intervention.

You are commanded to Be perfect before you follow Jesus.

I am perfect in quite a number of commandments, and will achieve perfection in others over time. I admit that I will not achieve perfection in everything in mortality, and that I am dependent on God for two things: one, even if I do achieve perfection in one thing, I have achieved it, and that means I was once sinful in that thing. Therefor, I must be forgiven. That's what the Atonement does.

Here you say that you are forgiven for only those things that you have overcome. That is what I said to you and you said I am wrong about your beliefs. You keep forgetting James wherein if you break one commandment of God, you have broken the whole entire law of God. The law is like one command, not several. The law is this one command: "love your neighbor as yourself" So whenever you fail to love your neighbor as yourself, you have broken the whole entire law.

Like I said, the law is like a balloon. One sin is like the pin that pops the entire balloon. So unless you are perfect, you will stand before God as a law breaker for you have broken the entire law of God. In the judgement, nothing you did will be taken into account since you didn't keep the law perfectly, you broke the entire law. Law breakers are God's enemies. God's enemies go to outer darkness when they die.

[revelation]

Except that Adam and Eve heard it from God's lips, they didn't read it in a record that they assumed to be true..

God's lips? The serpent who tempted Eve was Satan, not God.

We have no assumed measuring stick..

We have the true measuring stick, the Holy Ghost, which is the true source of the bible (original as it fell from the lips of prophets and apostles, except the song of Solomon..)

The Holy Ghost or the Spirit of a Demon or Satan? Without a measuring stick, you can't know which one!

"Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away"

And how shall that be accomplished?

By faith in God's promises. He promised his words will never pass away, I believe him. I trust him to work out the details.

[shalamabobbi]

You are commanded to Be perfect before you follow Jesus.

We are commanded to be perfect by following Jesus..

God's lips? The serpent who tempted Eve was Satan, not God.

And the serpent said: "Yea hath god said.."?

said to who? the serpent??

The Holy Ghost or the Spirit of a Demon or Satan? Without a measuring stick, you can't know which one!

The bible or the Qur'an? Without a measuring stick you're just assuming..

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The Holy Ghost or the Spirit of a Demon or Satan?

By faith in God's promises. He promised his words will never pass away, I believe him. I trust him to work out the details.

And as I pointed out He has..

[revelation]

We are commanded to be perfect by following Jesus...

I think the scripture is clear for those who believe Jesus' words. For those who don't believe Jesus' words and hold to what he said, Jesus had this to say: John 8:43-47 " Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

And the serpent said: "Yea hath god said.."?

said to who? the serpent??

you seem to be implying that God said "Did God really say..." Obviously that is not the case.

The serpent is Satan:

"The great dragon was hurled downâ??that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. Rev 12:9

The bible or the Qur'an? Without a measuring stick you're just assuming..

The Bible stands millions of miles apart from the Quran and the BOM.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The Holy Ghost or the Spirit of a Demon or Satan?

And as I pointed out He has..

Well the apostles whom he had chosen had a measuring stick. They witnessed the life, death and ressurection of Jesus.

In fact, since you believe the bible is fallible. How do you know if Acts 1:2 should actually read: "Until that day in which he was taken up, after that he promised he wouldn't send the Holy Spirit to anyone else"?

And how shall that be accomplished?

Note:

Romans 11:17-24

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cast off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

This allegory of Zenos of the tame and wild olive trees is a part of the OT that is now lost to the bible. It is a portion of God's word that shall never pass away however. Nephi brought a copy of the OT up to his day with him to America. It contained this allegory of the olive trees. It has been restored in the BOM where Jacob quotes from the brass plates(OT that Nephi brought). I will not post it as it is a rather long scripture, 77 verses, but the LDS are the ones who can rightly claim "his words shall never pass away" as the bible is full of references to lost and missing scriptures that ought to be part of the bible according to your interpretation of Matt 24:35. Also a witness that testifies of itself is not sufficient. The law of witnesses requires more that one witness.

And what does Romans 11:17-24 have to do with our conversation?

You point out something that has been restored in the BOM. That proves nothing! I can write my own book today, and quote as many OT or NT scriptures and put in the older part of my book and then claim what you claim. It proves nothing!

[shalamabobbi]

I don't want to murder you revelation. So your proof of application fails..

In fact, since you believe the bible is fallible. How do you know if Acts 1:2 should actually read: "Until that day in which he was taken up, after that he promised he wouldn't send the Holy Spirit to anyone else"?

By my measuring stick..

Well the apostles whom he had chosen had a measuring stick. They witnessed the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

And you think that is how they knew the difference between a revelation from God and a deception from Satan?

Peter buckled w/o the HG and denied thrice. Yet after he received the Holy Ghost he boldly hazarded his life.

The only sin that is unpardonable through repentance is to deny the Holy Ghost. Can anyone in our day commit this sin?

Why the teaching saved by the marvelous power of God for our day then?

John 16:7-15 It is expedient that I go away, for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you; he(HG) will guide you into all truth..

again biblical..

[revelation]

I don't want to murder you revelation. So your proof of application fails..

By my measuring stick..

which you cannot be certain is a Demon or Satan. You have no measuring stick to tell the difference.

And you think that is how they knew the difference between a revelation from God and a deception from Satan?

Peter buckled w/o the HG and denied thrice. Yet after he received the Holy Ghost he boldly hazarded his life.

The only sin that is unpardonable through repentance is to deny the Holy Ghost. Can anyone in our day commit this sin?

Why the teaching saved by the marvelous power of God for our day then?

John 16:7-15 It is expedient that I go away, for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you; he(HG) will guide you into all truth..

again biblical..

The Holy Spirit is within me, and you say it is within you. We do not agree on much. So how do we tell which one of us has the true Spirit within? The answer is this: the one with the true Spirit of God will not contradict the Spirit's own word which is the word of God.

The Spirit within me says God justifies the ungodly. The Spirit within you says God justifies NOT the Godly. The Spirit's own word says what I say. His word says that God justifies the ungodly. But you do not have the Spirit, therefore you do not except the things that come from the Spirit of God. They are foolishness to you. The Bible is the word of the Holy Spirit. It is foolishness to you.

[shalamabobbi]

If we can't decide based upon interpretation of the bible,

And we can't decide based upon a witness from the spirit,

Is there any other indicator available?

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

So here it is stated we can know if we are willing to... drum roll.. DO..

[revelation]

If we can't decide based upon interpretation of the bible,

And we can't decide based upon a witness from the spirit,

Is there any other indicator available?

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

So here it is stated we can know if we are willing to... drum roll.. DO..

I am still waiting for you to DO just that.

[LeSellers]

Fair enough.

Rewards are given based on our service. Works, if you will. Salvation is a free gift independent of works.

'Cept you didn't 'splain nuttin'.

Are there, then, different rewards in heaven? How do they differ? On what, precisely, is the determination based to give one person reward X, and another, reward Y?

And, above all, how does this differ from the LDS concept of "degrees of glory"?

Lehi

[shalamabobbi]

I am still waiting for you to DO just that.

No proselyting revelation..

I believe in Christ. Thankyou.

So my belief encompasses your requirements and hence I am saved by your definition.

Rather than continuing in this circle maybe you could finish presenting your complete picture of everything relating to your POV.

Whether salvation is a reward or freedom from punishment, etc. You never did that and it would be more interesting than what we are doing.

And it would help to the original intent of the OP.

And if you are really interested in the LDS view to understand it better ask what you need to clarify what is not clear to you about the LDS POV.

Thanks.

[Hoops22]

'Cept you didn't 'splain nuttin'.

thought I did. But okay.

Are there, then, different rewards in heaven?

Yes. Different in the sense that one will receive more than another.

How do they differ?

Above

On what, precisely, is the determination based to give one person reward X, and another, reward Y?

Works

And, above all, how does this differ from the LDS concept of "degrees of glory"?

The lds idea of degrees glory is unbiblical. Rewards in heaven is entirely consistent with the Bible.

[revelation]

I believe in Christ. Thankyou.

So my belief encompasses your requirements and hence I am saved by your definition.

Rather than continuing in this circle maybe you could finish presenting your complete picture of everything relating to your POV.

Whether salvation is a reward or freedom from punishment, etc. You never did that and it would be more interesting than what we are doing.

And it would help to the original intent of the OP.

And if you are really interested in the LDS view to understand it better ask what you need to clarify what is not clear to you about the LDS POV.

Thanks.

Think about it. You quoted: "John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

You don't believe the Bible is of God because you believe man has tampered with it. In order to know if the Bible is of God, whether it is infallible, means to do what IT says, not what Joseph Smith says. Now if you do this, you will know the bible is infallible! You will know whether it be of God or whether if be the mistakes of men. You will know!

[LeSellers]

thought I did. But okay.

You still have not explained anything in a useful way.

Yes. Different in the sense that one will receive more than another.

More what?

Works

So, you do believe that "works" have a role in salvation? Salvation includes all the rewards one receives in heaven.

The lds [sic] idea of degrees glory is unbiblical.

You choose to believe that. I see many mansions and the glroy of the sun, the glory of the moon, and the glory of the stars to support the LDS view of soterology.

Rewards in heaven is entirely consistent with the Bible.

Well, here we agree. But, as I said, there are many ways of reading the passages, one of which, at least, is the LDS way.

Lehi

[shalamabobbi]

Think about it. You quoted: "John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

You don't believe the Bible is of God because you believe man has tampered with it. In order to know if the Bible is of God, whether it is infallible, means to do what IT says, not what Joseph Smith says. Now if you do this, you will know the bible is infallible! You will know whether it be of God or whether if be the mistakes of men. You will know.

I think you are taking the Joseph Smith translation of the bible a bit far here. There are some verses that got corrected. Eight pages out of 1590, that's one half percent. Granted he didn't get to finish the translation but how much of the project was left unfinished we don't know. Most of the corrections don't substantially change the understanding from the original, just make it clearer where the wording isn't in very good english.

You don't believe the Bible is of God because you believe man has tampered with it.

That is not true. I believe it is of God. The BOM states that it is of God. The church uses it as a standard work. It contains the primary testimony of the resurrection, crucifiction, the atonement.

In order to know if the Bible is of God, whether it is infallible, means to do what IT says, not what Joseph Smith says.

I don't believe in infallibility of the translation process. The original if we had it, maybe. Even Paul gives verses that he says are his opinion. What about women being saved by childbearing? Is that something your POV agrees with? If so then what happens to single women who were never asked to become wives?

I do do what the bible says. I find aspects of your interpretation on the fringe to be frank. I read the bible before being introduced to the LDS POV and my understanding of it agreed with the LDS POV prior to hearing the LDS POV. Well with the exception of a premortal life and degrees of glory. But I see the evidence of those doctrines in the bible now. I missed them before. But there was nothing that disagreed with those ideas.

I have not heard anything between our views of the doctrines of the bible that are that earth shakingly different in some ideas that you belabour as imminently important. You say we must start by being saved. But your definition of that word differs from mine. So we are not on the same page. And so it goes.

If you'd like to explain your lexicon, please do so.

The most significant difference between our ideas is in the necessity of a formal priesthood directed by someone who holds the keys of the same.

If I were to go out and establish a church on my own, exactly like the LDS church in every way, from teachings to organisation, it would not be God's church because the keys cannot be duplicated.

[Hoops22]

More what?

More rewards

So, you do believe that "works" have a role in salvation? Salvation includes all the rewards one receives in heaven.

No, that's your concept of salvation. Not Biblical.

You choose to believe that. I see many mansions and the glroy of the sun, the glory of the moon, and the glory of the stars to support the LDS view of soterology.

I believe the Bible. Degrees of heaven is unbiblical.

Well, here we agree. But, as I said, there are many ways of reading the passages, one of which, at least, is the LDS way.

No, there isn't. And having fidelity to the rest of the Bible.