Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Tanyan]

From a Catholic Christain neighbor Apologist = http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/justif6.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[urroner]

From a Catholic Christain neighbor Apologist = http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/justif6.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

From the link:

Let us see: we fulfill the Law by loving one another and doing no wrong to one another. St. Paul's explanation clearly shows that he agreed with Our Lord on the matter. Of course we have already shown that Our Lord did not teach sola fide. We have also demonstrated that the Apostles Peter, James, John, Jude, nor the Old Testament teaches sola fide. We have also shown in Romans in these key passages brought up by Protestant apologists to defend sola fide that Paul never speaks of sola fide at all. Romans 13 actually shows us that Paul and Our Lord are in agreement. So if (i) Our Lord did not teach sola fide, and (ii) the Apostle Paul agrees with Our Lord then (iii) the Apostle Paul does not teach sola fide either. Of course Our Lord's words are the most important in all of Scripture and they take primacy of place in every dispute. And Paul quite clearly agrees with his Lord and Master on the matter. So there is no sola fide doctrine taught in Romans. It is a "tradition of men" if ever there was one (cf. Isa. 29:13; Matt. 15:6-9; Mark 7:6-7).

Those who use the Epistle to the Romans to claim sola fide (faith alone) have engaged in a malicious twisting of the very words of the Apostle Paul apart from their intended meaning. This is exactly what the Apostle Peter warned his audience that people were doing who were "unlearned", "unstable", and "lawless men" (2 Pet. 3:14-17). And as this same pattern surfaces with St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, that is what will be examined next. But not without noting yet again that the book of Romans does not teach sola fide or any other doctrine distinctive to Protestant soteriological theology.

I have to admit that sometimes our Catholic brethren get it right occasionally.

[LeSellers]

Where, in the Bible, does the phrase "unmerited favour/favor" appear? I cannot find it. I cannot even find the terms "grace" and "gift" or "free*" in the same verse.

...

Since your whole position is based on the extra-biblical notion that the grace of Christ is a free gift (meaning He chooses whom He will give it to without regard for anything the person does), ought you not demonstrate that you are dealing with the correct idea of what "grace" truly is?

In fact, it is only those who believe in unmerited grace that are saved. God doesn' t justify the righteous, God doesn't justify those who do all they can do, God justifies the UNgodly. That my freind is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

You tried to respond to my subsidiary point, but completely ignored the primary one.

Where does the Bible say the "grace" is "unmerited favour"? It surely is not in any Bible I have read, at least the way I understand you all to mean "unmerited favour". You all claim that nothing we do has any value whatsoever in receiving grace. No obedience is good enough to even merit mention. You often fall back on the "filthy rags" passage to justify your anti-obedience stance. Yet you completely disregard every passage where Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The word is "commandments", not "suggestions".

Besides, if I read the Bible correctly, "There is none righteous, no, not one". So, of course God justifies the unrighteous, that's all there is. He has no choice if He'd going to justify anyone at all. So your point, while true, has no value whatsoever.

You depend on your interpretation of a small number of scriptures. I interpret them differently. Who's right? (Hint: it's me.)

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ... 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

My Apostle (who knew Jesus Christ personally) says you must have works or your faith is dead.

Moreover, Paul was not speaking about "works" as you are using the term. He was speaking, to Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but who kept going back to their ancestral roots and trying to impose the Law of Moses on the Church. Paul, following Peter's revelation in Acts 10, knew that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled, and that their works of the Law were not beneficial.

Finally, you create an artificial line between what is a "work" and what is not: belief is not a work, you say, faith is not a work. But in the same breath, you say that baptism is. This is ridiculous. Baptism is not a "work" any more than is faith.

Below, by his grace, he redeemed us from wickedness. That is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

Titus 2:14 "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

No one suggests that the Atonement is not the key to salvation and exaltation. It is. Christ is the Central Figure in LDS soterology. Without Him, it is impossible for us to return to live with Father.

That's not the dispute, and you have, once again, not shown us that this grace you speak of is unmerited favour. After all, in the end, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. If recognizing Jesus as your Savior fills the need, then why doesn't God just force us all to believe in the first place?

Below in Luke 18, the Pharisee believed in "after all we can do" and the tax collector had nothing to offer that would merit God's grace. Instead he beat his breast and begged for mercy. It was the tax collector who was exalted by unmerited grace! The Pharisee didn't recieve any grace at all and he was humbled. He never got exalted, he went to outer darkness.

Here you are reading way too much into the passage. It does not say "after all we can do", as you claim: the Pharisee was trying to do it all. He had no faith; he falsely believed that the Law of Moses itself could save him. But the very thought was his undoing since the Law was given to him as a schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. He rejected that, so anything he did was not mingled with faith at all, the Law had become his god, and "nomialogy" is just as bad as any other idolatry.

Luke 18:9-14 "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other menâ??robbers, evildoers, adulterersâ??or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Notice that key phrase: "confident of their own righteousness". One of the odd things I find among Evangelicals is the insistence that they are saved (some even claim they cannot be unsaved, no matter what they do), and who then chide us LDSs because we do not know that we are. If this is the case, then it is wholly illogical to claim that we "are confident of our own righteousness", because I know for a fact that we are not confident at all, that we rely, out of sheer necessity, on Him who is mighty to save precisely because we are not. (Mentally deranged and apostates excepted, of course.)

Furthermore, isn't "humbling oneself" a "work"? I mean since Christ has commanded us to be humble, isn't obeying Him doing something?

Lehi

[Tanyan]

Filthy Rags - http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm .

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHHT.

[Tanyan]

And Romans - http://www.14lds.com/rome.htm

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Trencher7]

I use the NIV but even the KJV says that God justifieth the ungodly.

And the LDS doesn't call on the name of the Lord of all grace. 1 Peter 5:10 "And the God of all grace..."

They call on the name of another Lord of faith and works. It is either faith in grace or faith in works. You can't have it both ways. Only those who have believed in the God of all grace can call on his name. If they believe, that gift was given to them. God enables us to call on his name. Of course, you would have to add to God's word and say: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved after all he can do"

We went through this already. The people James is speaking to were already JUSTIFIED before God by faith alone. Now James is exhorting them towards good works which would justify them before men.

It's about an attitude of the heart, not a prayer. God looks at the heart. A salvation by faith and works always produces pharisees.

James was clearly against "faith alone". And Paul was inspired to never put those two words together even though he used the word "faith" more than anyone else in the NT. James was talking about justification before God not men. Which is why he asked "can faith save him"? The claim he is talking about being justified before men holds no water. As if Abraham was justified before men when he went up alone on the mountain to sacrifice his son?

A salvation by faith and works always produces pharisees? You ned to clarify. I don't think anyone here believes in a salvation that doesn't include grace. God happens to extend grace to those with faith and good works, but faith is what is key. You are right it does come down to our hearts changing and aligning our wills with God's. Salvation is more about who we are and what we become and that of course will include good works as we faithfully follow the Lord's teachings since he is the "author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5: 7-9)

2 Nephi 10:24-

â??Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.â?.

[Zakuska]

I use the NIV but even the KJV says that God justifieth the ungodly.

Pauls whole point is that God justifies All men... both those who work and don't work... male female... Greek/Gentile vs Hebrew/Jew... black vs white.... and yes even Evangelical vs Mormons... Contra what you said earlier.

And the LDS doesn't call on the name of the Lord of all grace. 1 Peter 5:10 "And the God of all grace..."

Hmmm.... Who died and gave you the special power of being able to see into the hearts of men and judge them?

They call on the name of another Lord of faith and works. It is either faith in grace or faith in works. You can't have it both ways. Only those who have believed in the God of all grace can call on his name. If they believe, that gift was given to them. God enables us to call on his name. Of course, you would have to add to God's word and say: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved after all he can do"

And theres where you'd be wrong. Its Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's neither faith in Grace alone nor Faith in works alone. Its Faith, Grace, and bearing fruit meet for repentance (aka works). Paul makes that good and clear when he shows how incompatible "grace alone salvation" is to a "works alone salvation"...

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The true system Paul outlines in Romans is grace and works working together in the bubble of faith.

We went through this already. The people James is speaking to were already JUSTIFIED before God by faith alone. Now James is exhorting them towards good works which would justify them before men.

And appartently you didn't listen...

First... No where does James say these people where "already justifed before God".

Second... James specifically says that their works filled faith is specifically "justifying them before God" not "before men". James 1:27 sets the context for James chapter 2...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You will also note again for the third time... Paul is the one who is speaking about being Justified by works "before men"...

Rom. 4: 2

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

If Abraham could "boast and glory" because of his Justifying works... "but not before God"... that only leaves one group of people who his boasting and glorying and works could justify him before... and that would be "before men".

Sorry to say this bluntly revelation... but your reading of the Bible is exactly backwards.

It's about an attitude of the heart, not a prayer.

Mormons infatically agree... its about doing all we can do to help and show graditude to the Lord for what he has done for mankind.

God looks at the heart. A salvation by faith and works always produces pharisees.

Christ being the biggest one...

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So was Paul... When he exorts the romans to obey the 10 commandments...

Romans 13

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

and Fullfill the NEW law.

And what in the world was Paul thinking here?

Rom. 11: 14

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Provoking someone to DO something to be saved?!

If it truly was PURE GRACE as you want to make it out to be then there would be no IF about it. No need for Paul to "PROVOKE TO EMULATION" for some one to be saved. No amount of "Emulation" (aka DOING something [ie works]) could ever save them. Yet here Paul says that if they emulate him and DO what he DOES they might just DO something that will get them saved.

[kantgomo]

Don't forget, Zak that it was also James who included "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

[Zakuska]

Don't forget, Zak that it was also James who included "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Thank God for sending the Savior each time we stumble. That doesn't mean we should give up trying to keep the whole law.

[urroner]

Don't forget, Zak that it was also James who included "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

So Kantgomo, should we even try to keep the commandments the Lord has given us?

[Billy]

So Kantgomo, should we even try to keep the commandments the Lord has given us?

I think there is no question about it, YOU as an LDS are required to keep the commandments and try for perfection.

Matthew 5:48 " BE (not try) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Miracle of Forgiveness Chapter 15 page 208

"This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

2 Nephi 25:23". . .for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Alma 11:37 " 37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

[Billy]

Thank God for sending the Savior each time we stumble. That doesn't mean we should give up trying to keep the whole law.

Good luck to you Zak

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

[urroner]

I think there is no question about it, YOU as an LDS are required to keep the commandments and try for perfection.

Matthew 5:48 " BE (not try) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Miracle of Forgiveness Chapter 15 page 208

"This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

2 Nephi 25:23". . .for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Alma 11:37 " 37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

So Billy, are you saying as an Evangelical, that you don't have to keep the Lord's commandments?

[Billy]

So Billy, are you saying as an Evangelical, that you don't have to keep the Lord's commandments?

It is not so much "I don't", but "I can't" keep ALL the commandments.

1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If you break one sin, that makes you a sinner. If we ALL sin, we are all sinners. You may of kept 90% of the commandments, whereas I may of kept 75% of the commandments. At the end of the day we are not allowed in to heaven by our works, but on Christ's work. We are justified by faith, not by works.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Lest any man should boast.

[urroner]

It is not so much "I don't", but "I can't" keep ALL the commandments.

1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If you break one sin, that makes you a sinner. If we ALL sin, we are all sinners. You may of kept 90% of the commandments, whereas I may of kept 75% of the commandments. At the end of the day we are not allowed in to heaven by our works, but on Christ's work. We are justified by faith, not by works.

And have any of us LDSers ever say that we could keep ALL the commandments all the time? It seems to me that you must think that we believe that we can.

Do you believe that we believe that we can make it to Heaven without the Atonement, that we don't need Christ?

If we don't love Christ, will we be allowed into Heaven?

[Flyonthewall]

Don't forget, Zak that it was also James who included "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

I have thought of this as saying something along the lines of: if you steal a penny or a million dollars, you are still a thief.

In other words, if we break one commandment or all of them, we are still separated from God...we still have sinned and have need of repentance.

[Billy]

And have any of us LDSers ever say that we could keep ALL the commandments all the time? It seems to me that you must think that we believe that we can.

I know you can't keep all the commandments.

How many commandments can you break and still go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Do you believe that we believe that we can make it to Heaven without the Atonement, that we don't need Christ?

No

Rather this seems to be the formula

Atonement +Works +endure to the end=chance for Celestial kingdom

[urroner]

I know you can't keep all the commandments.

How many commandments can you break and still go to the Celestial Kingdom?

How many sins can Christ forgive me for? Are you saying there is a limit to how many sins I can have and then God's infinite mercy runs out.

Rather this seems to be the formula

Atonement +Works +endure to the end=chance for Celestial kingdom

Do you believe that everybody who goes to Heaven gets the same reward and are there different rewards? Are are you saying that we all get the same reward, to sing in a billion, billion, billion voice choir, singing praises all the time and following God wherever He goes, for the rest of the eternity. That's almost sounds exciting to me - well, not really. I bet He'd get tired of it after a while.

[revelation]

How many sins can Christ forgive me for? Are you saying there is a limit to how many sins I can have and then God's infinite mercy runs out.

According to the LDS book the "Miracle of forgiveness", God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments.

"Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation " (Miracle of forgiveness page 208)

But you aren't living all of the commandments.

[urroner]

According to the LDS book the "Miracle of forgiveness", God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments.

"Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation " (Miracle of forgiveness page 208)

revelation, look at both of those sentences you have typed in and how can you not realize that is spite of what you just told me, they don't say the same thing. Please don't go around distorting other's beliefs. It's very unbecoming of you to do so.

Besides, do you think you can answer the question in my previous post I asked without creating little rabbit trails.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know you can't keep all the commandments.

How many commandments can you break and still go to the Celestial Kingdom?

No

Rather this seems to be the formula

Atonement +Works +endure to the end=chance for Celestial kingdom

So I cant keep them so to hell with them? That is exactly what it sounds like you are saying.

[coolrok7]

Where, in the Bible, does the phrase "unmerited favour/favor" appear? I cannot find it. I cannot even find the terms "grace" and "gift" or "free*" in the same verse. . . .

The greek term translated into english "grace" from Webster's dictionary is where "unmerited" "favor" can be found in the sense of understanding what the term "grace" means when it is used in Ephesians 2:8-10 as opposed to "after all we can do" in the BofM:

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

1grace

Pronunciation: \ˈgrās\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit gṛṇāti he praises

Date: 12th century

1 a: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b: a virtue coming from God c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

2 a: approval , favor <stayed in his good graces> barchaic : mercy , pardon c: a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage â?? Rudyard Kipling> d: disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e: a temporary exemption : reprieve

3 a: a charming or attractive trait or characteristic b: a pleasing appearance or effect : charm <all the grace of youth â?? John Buchan> c: ease and suppleness of movement or bearing

4â??used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop

5: a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks

6plural capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty

7: a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura

8 a: sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office â?? Calvin Trillin> b: the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful"

When Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith not by works, then we can understand that salvation is not by works (earned/merited/worked for), Salvation is being saved from eternal punishment (in hell):

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

â??For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.â?? (Matthew 25: 29-30)

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â??Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.â?? â??Then they also will answer Him, saying, â??Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?â?? Then He will answer them, saying, â??Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.â?? And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â? (Matthew 25:41-46)

Not just "resurrection" from the grave being the "gift" as redefined in Mormonism. Jesus says that some are raised from the dead to a resurrection of damnation (hell) not the Mormon concept of eternal progression being damned up or progressing further on to godhood. The gift is eternal life, not resurrection [Resurrection is the process of bringing the dead back to life):

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

[Paul told the Phillipian jailer that, "believe in the Lord jesus Christ and you will be saved."(there was no Mormon termple at the time)]

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)â?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Eternal punishment is alongside etermal life in the pronouncement above of Jesus on the future Judgent Day. The following Mormon statement from a proselytizing pamphlet:

What is Eternal Punishment?

If preaching to the spirits, bringing them to a knowledge of the truth, and being baptized for them releases them from their prison, It logically follows that there must be an end to future punishment. We hear the question: â??Do not the scriptures say that it is â??eternal punishmentâ?? and â??everlasting punishmentâ???â? Yes, but let us not put a private interpretation on these terms. Let us correctly understand their meaning. Eternal punishment is Godâ??s punishment; everlasting punishment is Godâ??s punishment. In other words, it is the name of the punishment God inflicts, he being eternal in his nature. Whosoever, therefore, receives Godâ??s punishment, whether it is endured one hour, one day, one week, one year, or an age. . . . (PLAN OF SALVATION, pamphlet, p.25)

"Eternal life" will last as long as "eternal punishment" does, which is forever.

[Billy]

How many sins can Christ forgive me for? Are you saying there is a limit to how many sins I can have and then God's infinite mercy runs out.

Because of God's infinite mercy, do you think that a person who is dying can ask God directly for forgiveness and gain entrance into the Celestial kingdom, without further works or ordinances? Or does this person NEED to do something?

[urroner]

Because of God's infinite mercy, do you think that a person who is dying can ask God directly for forgiveness and gain entrance into the Celestial kingdom, without further works or ordinances? Or does this person NEED to do something?

A person's repentance and if God is willing to accept it is up to God. I believe that the ordinances have to be done, but if the person dies without them, they will still be done for him.

Do we have to love Jesus in order to be saved?