Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Tanyan]

I only speak english LOL

It's Greek and Engish to Me ! .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Flyonthewall]

We know that it is by grace we are saved through faith. We also know faith without works is dead. Can grace work through dead faith? No. Faith includes works. Salvation cannot come through dead faith, so the works that animate faith cannot be a product of salvation, because works must come first as part of faith.

Works do not save, but they must be present as the animating component of faith. The works I speak of are not the works of the Law of Moses, but the actions we must do to follow the teachings of Christ. In this way we participate in our own salvation, but are not authors of it...Christ is.

This is simple and straight forward.

[Tanyan]

We know that it is by grace we are saved through faith. We also know faith without works is dead. Can grace work through dead faith? No. Faith includes works. Salvation cannot come through dead faith, so the works that animate faith cannot be a product of salvation, because works must come first as part of faith.

Works do not save, but they must be present as the animating component of faith. The works I speak of are not the works of the Law of Moses, but the actions we must do to follow the teachings of Christ. In this way we participate in our own salvation, but are not authors of it...Christ is.

This is simple and straight forward.

.

[revelation]

We know that it is by grace we are saved through faith. We also know faith without works is dead. Can grace work through dead faith? No. Faith includes works. Salvation cannot come through dead faith, so the works that animate faith cannot be a product of salvation, because works must come first as part of faith.Works do not save, but they must be present as the animating component of faith. The works I speak of are not the works of the Law of Moses, but the actions we must do to follow the teachings of Christ. In this way we participate in our own salvation, but are not authors of it...Christ is.This is simple and straight forward.

We are saved by grace through faith before we do good works. A man can't live until he is first made alive.Works are not part of faith, they are the result of faith. Works are evidence of faith.

It's Greek and Engish to Me ! .In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Well your greater than I!

[Flyonthewall]

We are saved by grace through faith before we do good works. A man can't live until he is first made alive.Works are not part of faith, they are the result of faith. Works are evidence of faith.

The scriptures are very clear about faith being dead without works. You are trying to say dead faith will will allow grace to be effective. That is false. If faith is dead without works, then works are a part of faith.

There is no justification for your claim that dead faith allows grace to be effective for salvation.

[revelation]

The scriptures are very clear about faith being dead without works. You are trying to say dead faith will will allow grace to be effective. That is false. If faith is dead without works, then works are a part of faith.

There is no justification for your claim that dead faith allows grace to be effective for salvation.

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying that faith is by definition: "trust in the person and work of Jesus" (trust that all our sins are forgiven) There are no works in that. We simply believe.

However, a person who trusts in the person and work of Jesus (believes all their sins are forgiven) will then go on and do good works out of thanks for such a great God as this!

[urroner]

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying that faith is by definition: "trust in the person and work of Jesus" (trust that all our sins are forgiven) There are no works in that. We simply believe.

However, a person who trusts in the person and work of Jesus (believes all their sins are forgiven) will then go on and do good works out of thanks for such a great God as this!

Can somebody trust in Christ and Christ's works and believe their sins are forgiven, still refuse to do good works? I have known people like this. They had been saved and therefore keeping the commandments wasn't important. Since they had been saved, all their sins had been forgiven and it didn't matter what they did.

[Billy]

Can somebody trust in Christ and Christ's works and believe their sins are forgiven, still refuse to do good works? I have known people like this.

I think you answered your own question.

They had been saved and therefore keeping the commandments wasn't important. Since they had been saved, all their sins had been forgiven and it didn't matter what they did.

Are these people make believe, or are they real people that you know?

What commandments did they break?

[revelation]

Can somebody trust in Christ and Christ's works and believe their sins are forgiven, still refuse to do good works? I have known people like this. They had been saved and therefore keeping the commandments wasn't important. Since they had been saved, all their sins had been forgiven and it didn't matter what they did.

It's probably better to keep the conversation on "you" and "me" rather than "others". The reason I say this is because it is difficult to tell what is going on with the "others" without having talked to them myself. There could be a bunch of explanations for this though and even some that I might not mention because I am not aware of them.

1)For example, not everyone who appears to be refusing to do good works is really refusing to do good works, it just appears that way.

Its possible that what appears as a refusal to do good works is in reality a sin of weakness or blind spot.

2)Others may be believing in one false teaching without realizing it and that is causing this difficulty or causing confusion for them.

as an example: I don't believe in OSAS, but that false doctrine could lead people to think this way.

3)They may say they are saved, but they may not really have grasped the 5 W's(who, what,why etc.)

4)Or it's possible that they really don't believe and just profess to.

These are just some that I can think of off the top of my head.

In my opinion, someone who believes that all their sins have been forgiven already, even while they are in their sins, and who realizes what they have been saved from Outer darkness because that is what their sins deserve, will go on and produce good works. Those who don't go on to produce good works, in reality, rejected the forgiveness that was freely given to them.

[Flyonthewall]

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying that faith is by definition: "trust in the person and work of Jesus" (trust that all our sins are forgiven) There are no works in that. We simply believe.

However, a person who trusts in the person and work of Jesus (believes all their sins are forgiven) will then go on and do good works out of thanks for such a great God as this!

If you are saying works come after salvation, then you are saying that dead faith will allow grace to be efftive.

James was very specific in his admonition, he seemed to be speaking to those who thought all they had to do was believe. Paraphrasing: If you think all you have to do is believe, but do nothing, you are mistaken. Your faith will do you no good without works. Without works, your faith is dead.

Your last sentence sounds like you are saying that salvation is free to everyone, but in order to stay saved, they must produce good works. If this is so, what is the difference between having works with faith, enduring to the end, and receiving salvation at the end; and being saved like you state, and only keeping your salvation if your faith produces good works?

[urroner]

I think you answered your own question.

Are these people make believe, or are they real people that you know?

What commandments did they break?

These are real people. They told me that when they were saved, they were forgiven of all their sins, past, present, and future. They could commit any sin and still be saved. Most of them were good people, but some of them were spouse/child/animal abusers, druggies, and other similar types. They told me that they had been saved and nothing could take them out of the hand of Christ since God had put them there.

[urroner]

It's probably better to keep the conversation on "you" and "me" rather than "others". The reason I say this is because it is difficult to tell what is going on with the "others" without having talked to them myself. There could be a bunch of explanations for this though and even some that I might not mention because I am not aware of them.

1)For example, not everyone who appears to be refusing to do good works is really refusing to do good works, it just appears that way.

Its possible that what appears as a refusal to do good works is in reality a sin of weakness or blind spot.

2)Others may be believing in one false teaching without realizing it and that is causing this difficulty or causing confusion for them.

as an example: I don't believe in OSAS, but that false doctrine could lead people to think this way.

3)They may say they are saved, but they may not really have grasped the 5 W's(who, what,why etc.)

4)Or it's possible that they really don't believe and just profess to.

These are just some that I can think of off the top of my head.

In my opinion, someone who believes that all their sins have been forgiven already, even while they are in their sins, and who realizes what they have been saved from Outer darkness because that is what their sins deserve, will go on and produce good works. Those who don't go on to produce good works, in reality, rejected the forgiveness that was freely given to them.

The problem with others is that I hear a lot from others on how on the basic doctrines of the gospel, they insist that they are united, so when somebody, not you revelation, say that this is what they believe on what I perceive to be a basic fundamental doctrine of the gospel and I bring up an example that doesn't agree with what they say, I catch all sorts of grief for doing that. Am I wrong in bringing up the example, I mean after all, if person A says that all people belonging to group G, are unified in certain beliefs, F, should I catch flack for pointing out that A believes X while person B, a member of G believes in Xnot?

Apparently there are some on this board who can even conceive that this person B can exist.

It's not that I'm trying to show that people in G are evil, I'm just trying to find out how A could say F is true while people like B exist. This is why I have been asking for definition of terms. I have asked what those gospel principles are in which G is unified on and what churches belong to G. If those questions can't be answered then the people involved in the discussion will simply talk past each other and then walk away from the discussion thinking just how ungodly the the other group is.

It's not like I just don't like Evangelicals, I work with them, they are my neighbors and my friends, and religion comes up in the discussion occasionally. I was even invited to attend a Southern Baptist Bible discussion which I did for quite a while. I learnt from them and they even learnt from me and they didn't find me offensive or even trying to set them up for a trap, I was just trying to find out what they meant when they used certain terms.

[Billy]

These are real people. They told me that when they were saved, they were forgiven of all their sins, past, present, and future. They could commit any sin and still be saved. Most of them were good people, but some of them were spouse/child/animal abusers, druggies, and other similar types. They told me that they had been saved and nothing could take them out of the hand of Christ since God had put them there.

Lets take a look at it from a Mormon perspective.

Isn't it true that ALL Mormons sin?

Isn't it also true that ALL Mormons probably have a good idea when they sin, that they are sinning? So in other words, they are willfully disobeying God.

[urroner]

Lets take a look at it from a Mormon perspective.

Isn't it true that ALL Mormons sin?

Isn't it also true that ALL Mormons probably have a good idea when they sin, that they are sinning? So in other words, they are willfully disobeying God.

Yes, but I don't recall any go around saying that they are saved and there is nothing they can do to stop their salvation.

Edited

[revelation]

If you are saying works come after salvation, then you are saying that dead faith will allow grace to be efftive.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "dead faith". I don't consider works to be a part of faith. Faith to me is trusting that in Jesus all my sins have been forgiven. It doesn't take any works to believe that in Jesus, all my sins have been forgiven. Do you see what I am saying? I believe that works are the result of faith though.

Since I know all my sins are forgiven, even while I am still in my sins, It is when I fully grasp what this means for me now and eternally that I then come to realize the profound love God has for me and for all mankind. That profound love is what motivates mankind to desire to live our lives for God.

I have complete peace with God and have had it since the day I first believed. I have peace with God because the question of where I will spend eternity doesn't rest on my works and that is the exact message that frees me to do good works out of love and thanks alone.

On the other side of the coin, I don't understand how people who believe they must do good works to be saved can find any peace with God? How do you find peace?

James was very specific in his admonition, he seemed to be speaking to those who thought all they had to do was believe. Paraphrasing: If you think all you have to do is believe, but do nothing, you are mistaken. Your faith will do you no good without works. Without works, your faith is dead.

All we have to do TO BE SAVED is believe. Works have no part in our salvation. That I believe is very true. It is also true that someone who is saved by faith alone, will produce good works.

Think of it like this, we are like poor beggars. A King comes along and gives us a castle. Who wouldn't appreciate that King?! They would be a fool to reject that gift and be unapreciative for that gift! It's almost absurd to think it's possible!

It's the same with forgiveness. It's difficult to believe that anyone would reject the riches of God's grace in Christ (that we have been forgiven for all our sins and even in our sins) and would not go on to show appreciation by producing good works.

Your last sentence sounds like you are saying that salvation is free to everyone, but in order to stay saved, they must produce good works. If this is so, what is the difference between having works with faith, enduring to the end, and receiving salvation at the end; and being saved like you state, and only keeping your salvation if your faith produces good works?

Yes. Salvation is free to everyone. Just as the castle was free to the poor beggar. If the beggar refuses the castle and doesn't appreciate the King who gave it, well...he remains a poor beggar all by his own choosing! Sad but true!

Which scenario below sounds like a King with a heart of love for poor beggars and who you would in turn be greatful to?:

1) A king gives you, a poor beggar, a castle as a gift, no conditions.

2) A king offers you, a poor beggar, a castle but gives you a list of requirements that you know you cannot live up to but you must live up to in order for you to gain the castle.

[revelation]

These are real people. They told me that when they were saved, they were forgiven of all their sins, past, present, and future. They could commit any sin and still be saved. Most of them were good people, but some of them were spouse/child/animal abusers, druggies, and other similar types. They told me that they had been saved and nothing could take them out of the hand of Christ since God had put them there.

You said: "They WERE abusers, druggies...." They could be saved:

1 Corinthians 6:10-12 "nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God"

You said: "they could commit any sin and still be saved"

It depends on what they intended by this statement. That is why it is difficult to discern without really having a talk with these people in great detail.

It's true that we can commit any sin and still be saved. Even the greatest of saints still sin on a daily basis. (either in weakness or ignorance)

It's also true that continual wilful sin can lead to loss of faith and thus loss of salvation.

[urroner]

Yes. Salvation is free to everyone. Just as the castle was free to the poor beggar. If the beggar refuses the castle and doesn't appreciate the King who gave it, well...he remains a poor beggar all by his own choosing! Sad but true!

Which scenario below sounds like a King with a heart of love for poor beggars and who you would in turn be greatful to?:

1) A king gives you, a poor beggar, a castle as a gift, no conditions.

2) A king offers you, a poor beggar, a castle but gives you a list of requirements that you know you cannot live up to but you must live up to in order for you to gain the castle.

Okay, let's run with this scenario of the king, the beggar and the castle.

I am the beggar and you are the king.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I never go into the castle. I even refuse to acknowledge the existence of the castle and even you. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I don't even know you gave me the castle. I have never met you and I don't even know you exist. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I take possession of the castle. I don't thank you. I bring the castle to near ruin. I even turn against you and try to destroy you. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I die. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I give the castle to a friend. Is that possible?

[revelation]

The problem with others is that I hear a lot from others on how on the basic doctrines of the gospel, they insist that they are united, so when somebody, not you revelation, say that this is what they believe on what I perceive to be a basic fundamental doctrine of the gospel and I bring up an example that doesn't agree with what they say, I catch all sorts of grief for doing that. Am I wrong in bringing up the example, I mean after all, if person A says that all people belonging to group G, are unified in certain beliefs, F, should I catch flack for pointing out that A believes X while person B, a member of G believes in Xnot?

You should never "catch all sorts of grief" for saying things intended in love and respect. It's your God given right to examine things according to your own conscience. However, not all Christians are mature enough yet to give you that space without causing you grief in the process. If they give you grief, they are sinning. Probably a sin of ignorance at this stage for which a mature Christian should gently and lovingly instruct them in their error.

From my perspective, all the varying denominations obviously are not unified in all beliefs. It's true that we may be unified in some beliefs. But each denomination should be unified in the beliefs of their own denomination because that is what God calls us to do. However, again we run into Christians of varying maturity and this is not always the case either.

Apparently there are some on this board who can even conceive that this person B can exist.

Person B can exist. That is clear from scripture wherein Jesus laments and weeps for Jerusalem. "How I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings but you were not willing"

It's not that I'm trying to show that people in G are evil, I'm just trying to find out how A could say F is true while people like B exist. This is why I have been asking for definition of terms. I have asked what those gospel principles are in which G is unified on and what churches belong to G. If those questions can't be answered then the people involved in the discussion will simply talk past each other and then walk away from the discussion thinking just how ungodly the the other group is.

I believe F is true even while people like B exist. The Bible teaches it, therefore I believe it. Some simply are "not willing" as Jesus said.

It's not like I just don't like Evangelicals, I work with them, they are my neighbors and my friends, and religion comes up in the discussion occasionally. I was even invited to attend a Southern Baptist Bible discussion which I did for quite a while. I learnt from them and they even learnt from me and they didn't find me offensive or even trying to set them up for a trap, I was just trying to find out what they meant when they used certain terms.

That is your God given right. Nobody should shun you for doing it.

[revelation]

Okay, let's run with this scenario of the king, the beggar and the castle.

I am the beggar and you are the king.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I never go into the castle. I even refuse to acknowledge the existence of the castle and even you. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I don't even know you gave me the castle. I have never met you and I don't even know you exist. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I take possession of the castle. I don't thank you. I bring the castle to near ruin. I even turn against you and try to destroy you. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I die. Is the castle still mine?

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I give the castle to a friend. Is that possible?

I will respond to this sometime later on today. I have run out of time and I have some obligations to meet at the moment.

Talk to you later.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

These are real people. They told me that when they were saved, they were forgiven of all their sins, past, present, and future. They could commit any sin and still be saved. Most of them were good people, but some of them were spouse/child/animal abusers, druggies, and other similar types. They told me that they had been saved and nothing could take them out of the hand of Christ since God had put them there.

Interseting. You know I had similar experiances out in Virginia. Some people told me that you could even kill some on and your sin was still forgiven becuase of eternal security. THere was nothing you could do to be unsaved if you were saved.

Oh I know there seems to be the new pattern I am seeing here. Lets see a chapal evangelical vs. an internet evangelical. Lol. Lame I know, but I didnt start it.

[Flyonthewall]

I suppose it depends what you mean by "dead faith".

Dead faith is faith without works.

I don't consider works to be a part of faith.

Of course you don't. That's why you have the outlook you do...but if you understood the truth...

Faith to me is trusting that in Jesus all my sins have been forgiven. It doesn't take any works to believe that in Jesus, all my sins have been forgiven. Do you see what I am saying? I believe that works are the result of faith though.

And where does repentance fit in with your belief? I don't see a place for it in your scenario.

In Hebrews, Paul wrote that "...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". He then lists a whole bunch of things that were accomplished by faith. The things accomplished were not brought about by idle musings, but by action. In all instances, belief was backed up by action.

Since I know all my sins are forgiven, even while I am still in my sins, It is when I fully grasp what this means for me now and eternally that I then come to realize the profound love God has for me and for all mankind.

If all your sins are already forgiven, how can you still be in your sins? One cannot be already forgiven, but still be in their sins...are you or aren't you?

That profound love is what motivates mankind to desire to live our lives for God.

That profound love is why we follow the teachings of Christ, because that is the path to eternal life. Eternal life is the thing not seen and hoped for, following His teachings is the substance, our belief backed up with action...Faith.

I have complete peace with God and have had it since the day I first believed. I have peace with God because the question of where I will spend eternity doesn't rest on my works and that is the exact message that frees me to do good works out of love and thanks alone.

How does this mesh with Revelation 20, where everyone will be judged according to their works? Or does judgment not have anything to do with where you spend eternity?

On the other side of the coin, I don't understand how people who believe they must do good works to be saved can find any peace with God? How do you find peace?

Very simple, by doing the things God wants us to do. Following the teachings of Christ, serving others. By DOING the will of God, we can draw nearer to Him.

Frankly, I see your view in a similar light...If you do not have to follow Christ to be saved(belief only), then there is no need for the teachings of Christ. Sure you say that our love for Him will motivate us to do good, but if we are saved without works, then lack of works cannot be grounds for "rejecting" salvation.

All we have to do TO BE SAVED is believe. Works have no part in our salvation. That I believe is very true. It is also true that someone who is saved by faith alone, will produce good works.

So if one does not produce good works then is their salvation taken away? No works were requried to get it, why then are works required to keep it? If there are requirements to keep it, how is that any different than requirements to get it?

Using your parable below, it would be like a king giving a poor beggar a castle, and telling them it is theirs to keep...but if they don't keep the grounds immaculately(as if a poor beggar could afford the staff to do so), then it will be considered as if they rejected the castle.

Think of it like this, we are like poor beggars. A King comes along and gives us a castle. Who wouldn't appreciate that King?! They would be a fool to reject that gift and be unapreciative for that gift! It's almost absurd to think it's possible!

It's the same with forgiveness. It's difficult to believe that anyone would reject the riches of God's grace in Christ (that we have been forgiven for all our sins and even in our sins) and would not go on to show appreciation by producing good works.

Yes. Salvation is free to everyone. Just as the castle was free to the poor beggar. If the beggar refuses the castle and doesn't appreciate the King who gave it, well...he remains a poor beggar all by his own choosing! Sad but true!

Which scenario below sounds like a King with a heart of love for poor beggars and who you would in turn be greatful to?:

1) A king gives you, a poor beggar, a castle as a gift, no conditions.

2) A king offers you, a poor beggar, a castle but gives you a list of requirements that you know you cannot live up to but you must live up to in order for you to gain the castle.

The two scenarios you present should look a bit more like this:

1) A king gives you, a poor beggar, a castle as a gift, no conditions...you don't know how to maintain or repair it so it falls into dissarray and is eventually ccondemned, the beggar is evicted and is now worse off than before, for now he knows what he is missing.

2) A king teaches the beggar how to repair and maintain a castle, and when the beggar has shown that he is willing to maintain it, the king gives him a castle, and there he lives happily ever after.

And according to your parable, how does the beggar refuse the castle? How does he not refuse the castle? If there is something he has to DO to not refuse the castle, then there are conditions.

[revelation]

Okay, let's run with this scenario of the king, the beggar and the castle.

I am the beggar and you are the king.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I never go into the castle. I even refuse to acknowledge the existence of the castle and even you. Is the castle still mine?

Jesus has forgiven all your sins - even the ones you are still in. Jesus didnâ??t forgive the righteous, he forgave the ungodly. You and I are poor spiritual beggars - unable to meet the conditions. Therefore Jesus has forgiven all our sins-even the ones we are still in. If you refuse to believe that you are forgiven then you have forfeited what was freely given to you. Basically saying you don't want it.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I don't even know you gave me the castle. I have never met you and I don't even know you exist. Is the castle still mine?

The whole world was forgiven that day on the cross. No conditions. Many donâ??t know it. Those who do know it are called to bring the good news to those who donâ??t.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I take possession of the castle. I don't thank you. I bring the castle to near ruin. I even turn against you and try to destroy you. Is the castle still mine?

You believe you are forgiven for all your sins but you donâ??t show thanks to God. That is like being made rich and throwing the riches in the garbage.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I die. Is the castle still mine?

You believe you are forgiven, no conditions. You then suddenly die without having had the opportunity to show thanks to God. You are saved and go to heaven.

You give me a castle as a gift, no conditions. I give the castle to a friend. Is that possible?

You cannot give the forgiveness given for YOUR SINS to someone else. You can only share with them the forgiveness they have in Jesus for their own sins

[Billy]

Yes, but I don't recall any go around saying that they are saved and there is nothing they can do to stop their salvation.

What is your definition of salvation?

[revelation]

And where does repentance fit in with your belief? I don't see a place for it in your scenario.

repentance is something God works into us.

In Hebrews, Paul wrote that "...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". He then lists a whole bunch of things that were accomplished by faith. The things accomplished were not brought about by idle musings, but by action. In all instances, belief was backed up by action.

Of course belief is evidenced by action which is what I have been saying all along. But that doesn' t mean that the action is what saved me. The action is evidence that I am already saved. It is not evidence that I will be saved if I continue to show evidence.

If all your sins are already forgiven, how can you still be in your sins? One cannot be already forgiven, but still be in their sins...are you or aren't you?

We believe we are forgiven before we overcome our sins. The fact that we know we are forgiven, produces a desire in us to overcome our sins.

That profound love is why we follow the teachings of Christ, because that is the path to eternal life. Eternal life is the thing not seen and hoped for, following His teachings is the substance, our belief backed up with action...Faith.

How does this mesh with Revelation 20, where everyone will be judged according to their works? Or does judgment not have anything to do with where you spend eternity?

We will be judged by our works. Those who did good works as a direct result of being saved are judged as believers. Those who did good works in order to be saved will be judged as unbelievers.

Frankly, I see your view in a similar light...If you do not have to follow Christ to be saved(belief only), then there is no need for the teachings of Christ.

There is a need for the teachings of Christ because those who are saved by belief only want to thank God for that by following Christ.

Sure you say that our love for Him will motivate us to do good, but if we are saved without works, then lack of works cannot be grounds for "rejecting" salvation.

lack of faith is grounds for rejecting salvation.

So if one does not produce good works then is their salvation taken away? No works were requried to get it, why then are works required to keep it? If there are requirements to keep it, how is that any different than requirements to get it? Using your parable below, it would be like a king giving a poor beggar a castle, and telling them it is theirs to keep...but if they don't keep the grounds immaculately(as if a poor beggar could afford the staff to do so), then it will be considered as if they rejected the castle.

Works aren't required to keep it. The Bible teaches us to keep the faith. That's all. Of course, faith cannot help but want do good works.

The two scenarios you present should look a bit more like this:

1) A king gives you, a poor beggar, a castle as a gift, no conditions...you don't know how to maintain or repair it so it falls into dissarray and is eventually ccondemned, the beggar is evicted and is now worse off than before, for now he knows what he is missing.

God has forgiven you for all your sins. So maintaining that is simple. Confess your sins and he is faithful and just and will forgive you your sins. Believe it!

2) A king teaches the beggar how to repair and maintain a castle, and when the beggar has shown that he is willing to maintain it, the king gives him a castle, and there he lives happily ever after.

Is it easier to overcome your sins when you know you are forgiven already or is it easier to overcome your sins in order to be forgiven?

And according to your parable, how does the beggar refuse the castle? How does he not refuse the castle? If there is something he has to DO to not refuse the castle, then there are conditions.

Refusing the castle is not a work that saves even though it is a work. It is a work that puts us in Hell. Believing all your sins are forgiven is not a work. Faith doesn't save. Grace saves. Faith is simply the hose through which the water of grace flows.

[urroner]

What is your definition of salvation?

Could you expound a little bit more about your definition of "works?"