Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[Calm]

I agree. And I also believe that the Bible is sufficient. But others don't and so for their sakes we need extrabibilcal works.

But aren't you then conceding the argument? By your actions of appealing to other books, you are demonstrating that the Bible isn't sufficient.

[Zakuska]

But the Bible as a whole proves itself to be true. Certainly your suggestion would be true if the Bible just popped into existence all at once like the BOM.

But since each part of the Bible has been around in it's own generation, each a testimony of a different time and when all those books are put together, they meet up in perfect agreement and unity of doctrine showing that the pen of each writer is in agreement like a testimony running all throughout history! It's an amazing book.

The Bible doesn't lie, Satan lie's. The fact that God allows Satan to speak in scripture is a testimony to the truth that Satan lie's.

If the Bible records people lieing then the bible does lie and contain lies.

The bible even records God telling Moses to lie to Pharaoh to steal his Gold.

[revelation]

Good luck with that non-biblical teaching.

1 Cor. 11: 19

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Pet. 2: 1

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This is why we have so many different denominations. In my church, we would call most of them Christian Church's and some of them we call Cults. But they are church's that we believe have one or more false teachings. So taking 2 Peter 2:1 for example, we believe that their are some false prophets amongst those churchs and we also believe they have false teachers. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any true believers in those churches because where the word of God is, God has promised it will not return to him empty.

We also believe that a false teacher can slip in amongst ourselves in our very own church, but when he is found out, he stands in danger of excommunication unless he repents. He is given time for instruction first of course to turn him from his false teaching but if his conscience is clear after that and he refuses to believe what we do, he will either leave on his own or get excommunicated.

[Zakuska]

This is why we have so many different denominations. In my church, we would call most of them Christian Church's and some of them we call Cults. But they are church's that we believe have one or more false teachings. So taking 2 Peter 2:1 for example, we believe that their are some false prophets amongst those churchs and we also believe they have false teachers. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any true believers in those churches because where the word of God is, God has promised it will not return to him empty.

We also believe that a false teacher can slip in amongst ourselves in our very own church, but when he is found out, he stands in danger of excommunication unless he repents. He is given time for instruction first of course to turn him from his false teaching but if his conscience is clear after that and he refuses to believe what we do, he will either leave on his own or get excommunicated.

Hmmm. Thats extra bibilcal as well. What makes your personal interpretation better than any one elses?

[revelation]

But aren't you then conceding the argument? By your actions of appealing to other books, you are demonstrating that the Bible isn't sufficient.

Not really. It's just that some people have more hurdles to overcome than others. Satan has so messed with their thinking that they just seem to need more. Think of Doubting Thomas, he just needed a little more that the others did. Not only that, but I think most of the other books generally themselves point to the all sufficient bible anyways, but they just take the time to explain all of that to the reader and to help the reader see the sufficiency of the Bible. I wouldn't say that is always the case but most of the time it is.

[revelation]

If the Bible records people lieing then the bible does lie and contain lies.The bible even records God telling Moses to lie to Pharaoh to steal his Gold.

If the Bible contains lie's, that doesn' t mean that the bible lie's or better said: isn't the truth. It means that the Bible testifies of those lie's by exposing the TRUTH that they are lie's. You have to remember that this is God's testimony of his relationship between himself and man and the existence of evil and of Satan. Satan lie's, that is the truth, when Satan lie's, that truth is revealled.Scripture reference please.

Hmmm. Thats extra bibilcal as well. What makes your personal interpretation better than any one elses?

What is it specifically that you think I am misinterpreting?

[Zakuska]

If the Bible contains lie's, that doesn' t mean that the bible lie's or better said: isn't the truth. It means that the Bible testifies of those lie's by exposing the TRUTH that they are lie's. You have to remember that this is God's testimony of his relationship between himself and man and the existence of evil and of Satan. Satan lie's, that is the truth, when Satan lie's, that truth is revealled.Scripture reference please.What is it specifically that you think I am misinterpreting?

Funny... here I thought it was mans testimony of God's interactions with them.

Your interpretation of what scripture is.

[kantgomo]

The part I highlighted.

It's the lie of Satan for God said...

Gen 2

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I think I spotted Eve tonight and she was with Elvis. Now, I should go repent of my sarcasm.

[revelation]

Funny... here I thought it was mans testimony of God's interactions with them.

Your interpretation of what scripture is.

Actually, it is God's own testimony, the Bible is God's word, not mans:

The Spirit is truth:

1 John 5:6-12 "6This is the one who came by water and bloodâ??Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

The word is truth:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

the Bible therefore is the Spirit's word, not man's.

The Spirit sanctifies:

2 Thessolonians 2:13 "God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

The Spirit sanctifies us through his own word (the bible):

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

[Zakuska]

Actually, it is God's own testimony, the Bible is God's word, not mans:

The Spirit is truth:

1 John 5:6-12 "6This is the one who came by water and bloodâ??Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

God's own testimony is not the written word. John the Baptist heard God's own testimony when he heard the talking cloud say... "This is my beloved son in whom I am well Pleased".

The word is truth:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

Correct. His words are truth wether man saw fit to include them between the covers of the Bible or not.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God"

Since the Bible claims that it doesn't contain everything God has ever said... theres a big problem there. What books contain things God has said but arn't in the Bible?

the Bible therefore is the Spirit's word, not man's.

This is what is known as the falacy of Non-sequitir or Circular reasoning. No where does the Bible say "the bible" is the word of God.

The Spirit sanctifies:

2 Thessolonians 2:13 "God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

The Spirit sanctifies us through his own word (the bible):

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

You are reading words into the Bible that arnt there.

[coolrok7]

God's own testimony is not the written word. John the Baptist heard God's own testimony when he heard the talking cloud say... "This is my beloved son in whom I am well Pleased".

Correct. His words are truth wether man saw fit to include them between the covers of the Bible or not.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God"

Since the Bible claims that it doesn't contain everything God has ever said... theres a big problem there. What books contain things God has said but arn't in the Bible?

This is what is known as the falacy of Non-sequitir or Circular reasoning. No where does the Bible say "the bible" is the word of God.

You are reading words into the Bible that arnt there.

God's own Word was inspired to be written as Peter says here. Your words above (Joseph Smith's are only in Mormonism) are not authoritative, the apostle Peter's are:

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: â??This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.â? And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

. . .the scriptures, which themselves are the record of revelation and inspired instruction; . . . (The Ensign, Marion D. Hanks, Nov.1986, p.11)

Scripture comes from within the parameter of history- â??Scriptureâ? purports to be Divine Revelation; Mormonism agrees. Unless one is moved upon by the Holy Spirit, no one would believe in the spiritual inspiration of Scripture:

But either Jesus Christâ??and the disciples touched and inspired by His spiritâ??spoke the truth or they did not. We believe that they spoke the truth, and that the truth they spoke was the Word of God. (Mormon Church Readers Digest Christmas advertisement, 1972)

In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (The Gospel Through The Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.91)

We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1)

The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188)

Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46)

Scholars Look at the New Testament Gospels A major theme of the symposium was the authenticity of the New Testament text. . . .â?the New Testament text is well establishedâ?â??that it has an enviable position of reliability when compared with other ancient texts. . . .no text is better attested in both quality and quantity of readings than the New Testament writings. . . .(The Ensign, May 1985, p.105, Brigham Young Universityâ??s symposium on the New Testament Gospels., C. Wilfred Griggs, . . .(in a paper read by his wife)

Revelation is doing exactly what the following says (which is Scripture:

Jesus said to him, â??Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â? And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, . . . (Acts 17:11-12a)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea. (Colossians 4:16)

I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren. (1 Thessalonians 5:27)

But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame. And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15)

I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:14-15)

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 1:13)

You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:14-15)â?

[revelation]

God's own testimony is not the written word. John the Baptist heard God's own testimony when he heard the talking cloud say... "This is my beloved son in whom I am well Pleased".

Correct. His words are truth wether man saw fit to include them between the covers of the Bible or not.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God"

Since the Bible claims that it doesn't contain everything God has ever said... theres a big problem there. What books contain things God has said but arn't in the Bible?

This is what is known as the falacy of Non-sequitir or Circular reasoning. No where does the Bible say "the bible" is the word of God.

You are reading words into the Bible that arnt there.

Coolrok7 responded very well to this post.

[Zakuska]

Coolrok7 responded very well to this post.

Actually... coolrok7's response was riddled with logical fallicies... and circular reasoning. As well as "private interpretation" of scripture...

God's own Word was inspired to be written as Peter says here. Your words above (Joseph Smith's are only in Mormonism) are not authoritative, the apostle Peter's are:

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: â??This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.â? And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

So "all prophecy" is given to living men known as prophets who write down their visions.

What about all the stories and such that where recorded that weren't "prophecies"? Are these Scripture too?

. . .the scriptures, which themselves are the record of revelation and inspired instruction; . . . (The Ensign, Marion D. Hanks, Nov.1986, p.11)

Scripture comes from within the parameter of history- â??Scriptureâ? purports to be Divine Revelation; Mormonism agrees. Unless one is moved upon by the Holy Spirit, no one would believe in the spiritual inspiration of Scripture:

But either Jesus Christâ??and the disciples touched and inspired by His spiritâ??spoke the truth or they did not. We believe that they spoke the truth, and that the truth they spoke was the Word of God. (Mormon Church Readers Digest Christmas advertisement, 1972)

In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (The Gospel Through The Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.91)

We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1)

The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188)

Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46)

Scholars Look at the New Testament Gospels A major theme of the symposium was the authenticity of the New Testament text. . . .â?the New Testament text is well establishedâ?â??that it has an enviable position of reliability when compared with other ancient texts. . . .no text is better attested in both quality and quantity of readings than the New Testament writings. . . .(The Ensign, May 1985, p.105, Brigham Young Universityâ??s symposium on the New Testament Gospels., C. Wilfred Griggs, . . .(in a paper read by his wife)

I don't disagree with anything said here... However I also agee with these sayings... of the same Men of God.

Brigham Young on The Bible

I have heard some make the broad assertion that every word within the lids of the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them, "You have never read the Bible, have you?" "O, yes, and I believe every word in it is the word of God." Well, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, and the words of good men and the words of bad men; the words of good angels and the words of bad angels and words of the devil; and also the words uttered by the *** when he rebuked the prophet in his madness. I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances.

Journal of Discourses 13:175 (May 29, 1870)

Some, in their curiosity, will say, "But you Mormons have another Bible! Do you believe in the Old and New Testaments?" I answer we do believe in the Old and New Testaments, and we have also another book, called the Book of Mormon. What are the doctrines of the Book of Mormon? The same as those of the Bibleâ?¦"What good does it do you, Latter-day Saints?" It proves that the Bible is true. What do the infidel world say about the Bible? They say that the Bible is nothing better than last year's almanack; it is nothing but a fable and priestcraft, and it is good for nothing. The Book of Mormon, however, declares that the Bible is true, and it proves it; and the two prove each other true. The Old and New Testaments are the stick of Judah. You recollect that the tribe of Judah tarried in Jerusalem and the Lord blessed Judah, and the result was the writings of the Old and New Testaments. But where is the stick of Joseph? Can you tell where it is? Yes. It was the children of Joseph who came across the waters to this continent, and this land was filled with people, and the Book of Mormon or the stick of Joseph contains their writings, and they are in the hands of Ephraim. Where are the Ephraimites? They are mixed through all the nations of the earth. God is calling upon them to gather out, and He is uniting them, and they are giving the Gospel to the whole world. Is there any harm or any false doctrine in that? A great many say there is. If there is, it is all in the Bible.

Journal of Discourses 13:174-175 (May 29, 1870)

[T]ake the Bible just as it reads; and if it be translated incorrectly, and there is a scholar on the earth who professes to be a Christian, and he can translate it any better than King James's translators did it, he is under obligation to do so, or the curse is upon him. If I understood Greek and Hebrew as some may profess to do, and I knew the Bible was not correctly translated, I should feel myself bound by the law of justice to the inhabitants of the earth to translate that which is incorrect and give it just as it was spoken anciently. Is that proper? Yes, I would be under obligation to do it. But I think it is translated just as correctly as the scholars could get it, although it is not correct in a great many instances. But it is no matter about that. Read it and observe it and it will not hurt any person in the world. If we are not to believe the whole of the Bible, let the man, whoever he may be, among the professed Christians, who thinks he knows, draw the line between the true and the false, so that the whole sectarian world may be able to take the right and leave the wrong. But the man Christ Jesus, who has revealed himself in the latter days, says the Bible is true and the people must believe it. Let us believe it, and then obey it.

Journal of Discourses 14:226-227 (August 27, 1871)

Revelation is doing exactly what the following says (which is Scripture:

Jesus said to him, â??Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â? And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, . . . (Acts 17:11-12a)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea. (Colossians 4:16)

Where is this missing letter? Not in the Bible. How can we live by "every word"?

I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren. (1 Thessalonians 5:27)

But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame. And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15)

I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:14-15)

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 1:13)

You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:14-15)â?

[Tanyan]

Hey Zakuska my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother in CHRIST JESUS, why do not critics such as our Lutheran Synod friend coolrok7 "EVER" bother when quoting 2 Nephi 25:23 to criticize it adinfinentum quote the 1st 22 vrs of 2 Nephi 25 and the last 7 verses after it to get the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 ?.

Since that scripture [for me anyway] has been Christianized for our day [ The "After all we can do" = keeping the 2 Great commandments to Love GOD and our fellow man] , and then vrs 26-27 can still apply to us. Then vrs 28-30 apply to us teaching our children about the anchient Law of Moses and how it was done away and was fulfilled with Jesus Christs sacrifice vrs 27, then apply vrs 28-30 to our day about how we need to keep the commandments to fulfill the Law of Love/Harvest. What do you think ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Hey Zakuska my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother in CHRIST JESUS, why do not critics such as our Lutheran Synod friend coolrok7 "EVER" bother when quoting 2 Nephi 25:23 to criticize it adinfinentum quote the 1st 22 vrs of 2 Nephi 25 and the last 7 verses after it to get the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 ?.

Since that scripture [for me anyway] has been Christianized for our day [ The "After all we can do" = keeping the 2 Great commandments to Love GOD and our fellow man] , and then vrs 26-27 can still apply to us. Then vrs 28-30 apply to us teaching our children about the anchient Law of Moses and how it was done away and was fulfilled with Jesus Christs sacrifice vrs 27, then apply vrs 28-30 to our day about how we need to keep the commandments to fulfill the Law of Love/Harvest. What do you think ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

What say ye Zak ?.

[Zakuska]

What say ye Zak ?.

I have to say... I agree. Good call.

[revelation]

Actually... coolrok7's response was riddled with logical fallicies... and circular reasoning.

If you fail to point them out so that everyone knows what you are refering to, then your opinion holds no weight.

As well as "private interpretation" of scripture...

The Bible says: " justified the UNGODLY"

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

When someone contradicts the word of God by saying: "justifieth NOT the ungodly" , that is "private interpretation" as well as contradictory interpretation. Nothing Colrock said contradicts the word of God.

God's word, when taken "as is" is not subject to private interpretation. But you have to submit your thoughts to scripture rather than getting scripture to submit to your thoughts. Something JS failed to do.

[Tanyan]

I have to say... I agree. Good call.

Thank you Zakuska, we are "One".

[coolrok7]

. . .why do not critics such as our Lutheran Synod friend coolrok7 "EVER" bother when quoting 2 Nephi 25:23. . .quote the 1st 22 vrs of 2 Nephi 25 and the last 7 verses after it to get the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 ?. . . .In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Tanyan, it is because the discussion is focused on the "after all we can do" which is not salvation by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, not by works in Ephesians 2 of which Joseph Smith added to Ephesians 2 in plagiarizing from and coming up with the BofM.

[Tanyan]

Tanyan, it is because the discussion is focused on the "after all we can do" which is not salvation by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, not by works in Ephesians 2 of which Joseph Smith added to Ephesians 2 in plagiarizing from and coming up with the BofM.

Read my post above, the "All we can do" in the Bof M was the Law of Moses, now it is keeping the 2 great commandments but you need to read the entire chapter vrs 1-30 [context] to understand what is actualy being taught in 2 Neph 25:23. Ephesians 2 - "works" were keeping the Law of Moses which Joseph Smith did not add to the Gospel. No plagiarizm to add this to the BofM, No books were witnessed in his possession when translating the BofM. Grace [Charis] must be accessed/activated and made alive by one's Pistis [Faith] which is a Dynamic action word.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[LeSellers]

it is because the discussion is focused on the "after all we can do" which is not salvation by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, not by works in Ephesians 2 of which Joseph Smith added to Ephesians 2 in plagiarizing from and coming up with the BofM.

Where, in the Bible, does the phrase "unmerited favour/favor" appear? I cannot find it. I cannot even find the terms "grace" and "gift" or "free*" in the same verse.

I found 121 verses with the Greek word χάρις translated as "grace"; there are another 26 instances where χάρις has other uses (favour, thank(s/fulness,etc), pleasure, etc., but I did not find the word defined as "unmerited favour" (AV). Once, the word "grace" is the translation of εὐπρέπεια, and this is not unexpected (it means beauty, shapeliness, etc). Still no "unmerited favor". The word does not always mean "grace", and there is no hard and fast reason that we must accept that it ever does.

1) grace

1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour

2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

3) what is due to grace

3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace

3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit

3b1) a gift of grace

3b2) benefit, bounty

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

While Thayer is no LDS, it is clear that he had to accept the fact that the Greeks used the word to mean recompense. Methinks that his meanings under "2" above, were forced because of his Protestant theology, not because the text ever demanded them. Because, certainly, the word is of such critical importance to all Christians, that we ought to expect its definition in the primary text. Yet, it is not. And because not, we see a myriad of private interpretations. I find this curious; do you not?

Since your whole position is based on the extra-biblical notion that the grace of Christ is a free gift (meaning He chooses whom He will give it to without regard for anything the person does), ought you not demonstrate that you are dealing with the correct idea of what "grace" truly is?

If it is a mere assertion, fine, but say so plainly.

In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined.

I choose not to be defined by you and yours, thank you very much. Nor do I feel obligated to accept your definition of the terms of the debate.

Lehi

p.s. I have ignored you, and will more than likely do so again. However, for the next twelve hours or so, I will remove this restriction, so I can see your undoubtedly brilliant response. LS

[revelation]

Since your whole position is based on the extra-biblical notion that the grace of Christ is a free gift (meaning He chooses whom He will give it to without regard for anything the person does), ought you not demonstrate that you are dealing with the correct idea of what "grace" truly is?

In fact, it is only those who believe in unmerited grace that are saved. God doesn' t justify the righteous, God doesn't justify those who do all they can do, God justifies the UNgodly. That my freind is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Below, by his grace, he redeemed us from wickedness. That is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

Titus 2:14 "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

Below in Luke 18, the Pharisee believed in "after all we can do" and the tax collector had nothing to offer that would merit God's grace. Instead he beat his breast and begged for mercy. It was the tax collector who was exalted by unmerited grace! The Pharisee didn't recieve any grace at all and he was humbled. He never got exalted, he went to outer darkness.

Luke 18:9-14 "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other menâ??robbers, evildoers, adulterersâ??or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[Billy]

Since your whole position is based on the extra-biblical notion that the grace of Christ is a free gift (meaning He chooses whom He will give it to without regard for anything the person does), ought you not demonstrate that you are dealing with the correct idea of what "grace" truly is?

What about Romans 9?

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ; )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

[Zakuska]

In fact, it is only those who believe in unmerited grace that are saved. God doesn' t justify the righteous, God doesn't justify those who do all they can do, God justifies the UNgodly. That my freind is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

What version of the Bible are you reading? I've never read that in any Bible I've ever seen. However... Paul does say...

Rom. 10: 13

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I see nothing about unmerited grace in that verse. And "calling" on the name of the Lord is a verb... IE something you DO to be saved.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Robing from James to feed Peter I see.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. <A name=25> 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? http://' target="_blank"> 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Below, by his grace, he redeemed us from wickedness. That is pure, unpolluted, unmerited grace.

Titus 2:14 "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

Below in Luke 18, the Pharisee believed in "after all we can do" and the tax collector had nothing to offer that would merit God's grace. Instead he beat his breast and begged for mercy. It was the tax collector who was exalted by unmerited grace! The Pharisee didn't recieve any grace at all and he was humbled. He never got exalted, he went to outer darkness.

Luke 18:9-14 "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other menâ??robbers, evildoers, adulterersâ??or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The problem with this Parable... when quoted in the context you are using it... is the fallacy of Non-Sequiter. It has nothing to do with "After all we can do". Ive been in the church 30+ years and not once have I heard a member of the church pray like you intimate we are doing.

[revelation]

What version of the Bible are you reading? I've never read that in any Bible I've ever seen. However... Paul does say...

I use the NIV but even the KJV says that God justifieth the ungodly.

Rom. 10: 13

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I see nothing about unmerited grace in that verse. And "calling" on the name of the Lord is a verb... IE something you DO to be saved.

Robing from James to feed Peter I see.

And the LDS doesn't call on the name of the Lord of all grace. 1 Peter 5:10 "And the God of all grace..."

They call on the name of another Lord of faith and works. It is either faith in grace or faith in works. You can't have it both ways. Only those who have believed in the God of all grace can call on his name. If they believe, that gift was given to them. God enables us to call on his name. Of course, you would have to add to God's word and say: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved after all he can do"

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. <A name=25> 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? <a href="http://" target="_blank"></a> 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We went through this already. The people James is speaking to were already JUSTIFIED before God by faith alone. Now James is exhorting them towards good works which would justify them before men.

The problem with this Parable... when quoted in the context you are using it... is the fallacy of Non-Sequiter. It has nothing to do with "After all we can do". Ive been in the church 30+ years and not once have I heard a member of the church pray like you intimate we are doing.

It's about an attitude of the heart, not a prayer. God looks at the heart. A salvation by faith and works always produces pharisees.