Tanyan Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 No .If no Love for Jesus one cannot have true Pistis [Faith] in Jesus Christ to take hold of his free Gift of Grace [Charis] to Save them. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
revelation Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 revelation, look at both of those sentences you have typed in and how can you not realize that is spite of what you just told me, they don't say the same thing. Please don't go around distorting other's beliefs. It's very unbecoming of you to do so.Besides, do you think you can answer the question in my previous post I asked without creating little rabbit trails.You know I don't distort your beliefs intentionally just as I know when you don't get my beliefs right, I know you don't do it intentionally.Can you explain what you mean because what I have relayed to you is what I see in those words.I missed a question? Okay, let me go back and look for it. Sorry~
revelation Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Urroner, I looked for a question addressed to me and can't find it. Can you repeat it?
gmormon Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Urroner, I looked for a question addressed to me and can't find it. Can you repeat it?Revelation just click on the arrow w/the box in the quotqtion section and it will take you back to the quoted post. I think he was referring to your "Miracle of Forgiveness" quote.
urroner Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 Urroner, I looked for a question addressed to me and can't find it. Can you repeat it?I asked Billy:How many sins can Christ forgive me for? Are you saying there is a limit to how many sins I can have and then God's infinite mercy runs out.Too which you responded:According to the LDS book the "Miracle of forgiveness", God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments."Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation " (Miracle of forgiveness page 208)But you aren't living all of the commandments.To which I responded:revelation, look at both of those sentences you have typed in and how can you not realize that is spite of what you just told me, they don't say the same thing. Please don't go around distorting other's beliefs. It's very unbecoming of you to do so.Besides, do you think you can answer the question in my previous post I asked without creating little rabbit trails.I asked Billy that question because he said:I know you can't keep all the commandments.How many commandments can you break and still go to the Celestial Kingdom?So Billy asks a question he knows is silly, well, at least he should, and I called him to answer for himself.Now, back to what you said:According to the LDS book the "Miracle of forgiveness", God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments."Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation " (Miracle of forgiveness page 208)But you aren't living all of the commandments.You paraphased the book "MoF" by saying that it states that "God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments" and then you pull the quote out of the book that you said where it came from, ""Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation ."Okay, how you paraphrased the quote and what the quote says are two different things.Let's use a sporting event for example. The idea is to win the final race, but there are lots of heats along the way. I can guarantee that I can win the final race by winning all the races I'm in. Any disagreement there?No, let's say that I lose one of the races, can I still win the final race. That all depends. If it's in the final race, then no, but if I lose in a heat, I could still advance to the final. It all depends upon the rules. If I come in last in one of the heats, then I doubt if I will advance, but if they take all the people who came in the top three of the heats and advanced them, then if I lost, but came in the top three, then I could advance, else I don't advance.So, if I win all the races, then I am guaranteed the top spot at the end, but if I lose along the way, I'm not guaranteed that top spot.If I keep all the commandments, never sin, would God say "No Urroner, you did everything I asked you to do and then some more, no Heaven for you." Hey, the price of sin is death, but if I'm without sin, then what? Do you think the price of keeping all of God's commandments and never needing to repent is also the worthy of death?But, that is a discussion that none of us need to worry about because we all have sinned.Your paraphrase says that we believe that we have to keep all of the commandments else we believe that God will withhold His mercy is not anything like what we believe or what Pres. Kimball said in "TMoF."
Billy Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Your paraphrase says that we believe that we have to keep all of the commandments else we believe that God will withhold His mercy is not anything like what we believe or what Pres. Kimball said in "TMoF."2 Nephi 25:23. . ."for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do".How do you interpret this verse?Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."Do you obey this commandment? If not, why not? (note--BE means BE, not try)
ldslesson Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 The best talk I have ever read on this topic is Dallin H. Oaks, â??Have You Been Saved?,â? Ensign, May 1998, 55. He makes it very clear. "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assuredâ??we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ."The reason that this conversation become so difficult is that there are at least 6 definitions for salvation! The talk goes over each one of them (I didn't want to post the whole talk here.) But to be short, there are some definitions, like salvation from death, that we are all saved from as a free gift because of the atonement of Christ. There are others that are conditional, like the one that Elder Oaks describes, "Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the â??fulness of salvationâ? (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979â??81], 1:242). This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in the temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean â??exaltation,â? it is premature for any of us to say that we have been â??savedâ? in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead." No wonder we need the Book of Mormon and modern revelation to help with these questions. People have disagreed over these things for thousands of years by debating the Bible.
Tanyan Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 2 Nephi 25:23 cross ref with Ephesians 6:1-17 esp vrs 13 where Paul councils/commands the Ephesian Saints to have the Heart/mindset to "having done all to stand". Which applies to us as well as we fight the fight against principalities/powers/rulers of darkness/spiritual wickedness in high places even today [and tomorrow] As in times past. Have we all done all ?, no it's a walk/growth/mature forward run with all our might/strengh. Have our EV Brothers "Done all that they might stand ?", which is something they might want to think about seriously before throwing 2 Nephi 25:23 which they take out of context from that time period and do not ask for it's application for us today by way of it's meaning which has been shared here several times I believe. In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Billy Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 2 Nephi 25:23 cross ref with Ephesians 6:1-17 esp vrs 13 where Paul councils/commands the Ephesian Saints to have the Heart/mindset to "having done all to stand". Which applies to us as well as we fight the fight against principalities/powers/rulers of darkness/spiritual wickedness in high places even today [and tomorrow] As in times past. Have we all done all ?, no it's a walk/growth/mature forward run with all our might/strengh. Have our EV Brothers "Done all that they might stand ?", which is something they might want to think about seriously before throwing 2 Nephi 25:23 which they take out of context from that time period and do not ask for it's application for us today by way of it's meaning which has been shared here several times I believe.That section of scripture is talking about the armor of God and how to stand against the Devil. It is not talking about salvation.Ephesians 6The Armor of God11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Billy Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 The best talk I have ever read on this topic is Dallin H. Oaks, â??Have You Been Saved?,â? Ensign, May 1998, 55. He makes it very clear. "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assuredâ??we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ."The reason that this conversation become so difficult is that there are at least 6 definitions for salvation. . .2 Nephi 25:23. . ."for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do".So what do YOU think that this verse means, and how do YOU define saved in this specific verse?For example, you probably don't believe that someone who will get his resurrection body and end up in the Telestial kingdom is the "saved" that we are talking about here in this verse, because if they did ALL they could do, they would not be in the bottom kingdom, right?
urroner Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 So Billy, you honestly believe that one can truly get to Heaven without loving the Lord. I'm amazed. I told them about this belief of yours to some Evangelicals that I work with and they refused to believe a true Evangelical would ever say that. I showed them your post as proof and they all told me that you ain't no Evangelical, that you are a atheist plant. They told me to ignore fools like you.So Billy, here is your opportunity to show them that a true Evangelical should be able to not love the Lord and still have the Lord pleased with him.So, let me ask you one more time, can somebody go to Heaven and not love the Lord?
Tanyan Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 That section of scripture is talking about the armor of God and how to stand against the Devil. It is not talking about salvation.Ephesians 6The Armor of God11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.Yes it is, he states at the very end - " after you have done everything to stand ", part of Salvation soteriology is to stand up and fight against the devil and his legion so you do not fall prey to there attacks and fail in your race of salvation. Parrallel - 2 Nephi 23:24 with Eph 6: 6-13.In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 No Would you give that same answer if you were asked that same question by Billy Graham or Dr. Phil. ? .
Billy Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 So Billy, you honestly believe that one can truly get to Heaven without loving the Lord. I'm amazed. I told them about this belief of yours to some Evangelicals that I work with and they refused to believe a true Evangelical would ever say that. I showed them your post as proof and they all told me that you ain't no Evangelical, that you are a atheist plant. They told me to ignore fools like you.So Billy, here is your opportunity to show them that a true Evangelical should be able to not love the Lord and still have the Lord pleased with him.So, let me ask you one more time, can somebody go to Heaven and not love the Lord?You post was somewhat deceitful because you have in the past set up CONDITIONS FOR salvation. These things include works, baptism, and the list goes on and on. Salvation is based on faith alone. The question always goes back to whether or not you have to do a certain checklist for salvation. Lets look at your question againDo we have to love Jesus in order to be saved?Here you are setting up a CONDITION FOR SALVATION. Obviously those who are saved love Jesus. But that is NOT what you asked, rather you are trying to show (as you have in the past) that it is not by faith alone, but that there must be other conditions or works in addition to faith for salvation. This is your attempt to undermine the EV position. You see your friends may not know what you are up to on this board.EditurronerCan you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.Here is the questionWhat are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.
kantgomo Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 2 Nephi 25:23 cross ref with Ephesians 6:1-17 esp vrs 13 where Paul councils/commands the Ephesian Saints to have the Heart/mindset to "having done all to stand". Which applies to us as well as we fight the fight against principalities/powers/rulers of darkness/spiritual wickedness in high places even today [and tomorrow] As in times past. Have we all done all ?, no it's a walk/growth/mature forward run with all our might/strengh. Have our EV Brothers "Done all that they might stand ?", which is something they might want to think about seriously before throwing 2 Nephi 25:23 which they take out of context from that time period and do not ask for it's application for us today by way of it's meaning which has been shared here several times I believe. In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Are you saying that Eph. 6:13 has to do with works?
kantgomo Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Thank God for sending the Savior each time we stumble. That doesn't mean we should give up trying to keep the whole law.Well, my Savior is seated at the right hand of God and I am seated with Him in the heavenly realms. Nowhere does the Scripture I know to be true state that I have to be born again and again and again. That would be totally out of God's character. We sin once and are objects of God's wrath upon sin. Without our having had Christ's righteousness accredited to us we will remain objects of God's wrath. Contrast this with objects of mercy for those who are in Christ.
urroner Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 You post was somewhat deceitful because you have in the past set up CONDITIONS FOR salvation. These things include works, baptism, and the list goes on and on. Salvation is based on faith alone. The question always goes back to whether or not you have to do a certain checklist for salvation. Lets look at your question againHere you are setting up a CONDITION FOR SALVATION. Obviously those who are saved love Jesus. But that is NOT what you asked, rather you are trying to show (as you have in the past) that it is not by faith alone, but that there must be other conditions or works in addition to faith for salvation. This is your attempt to undermine the EV position. You see your friends may not know what you are up to on this board.EditurronerCan you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.Here is the questionWhat are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.Billy, can you finish this scripture for me, "If ye love me,..."Nothing deceptive about it. You knew where I was going and I knew that you knew where I was going and now you know that I knew that you knew where I was going and now I know that you know that.....So Billy, if you love the Lord, will you or will you not keep the commandments? If you believe that it's not important or necessary to keep the commandments, is that equivalent to saying that you believe that it's not important or necessary to love the Lord and can you be saved if you believe that it's not important or necessary to love the Lord?
Tanyan Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Are you saying that Eph. 6:13 has to do with works? Paul is commanding/telling them to "DO SOMETHING", works of Faith [Pistis] born out of a Love/Trust in Jesus Christ so they may stand there ground. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Tanyan Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 No Was at an EV Bookstore today and I asked 2 of the employees [1 Male,1 Female] if one needed to Love Jesus to be Saved and both stated YES because you need to have a relationship started with Jesus Christ to become Saved. In His Debt Grace/Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Billy Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 So Billy. . . I showed them your post as proof and they all told me that you ain't no Evangelical, that you are a atheist plant. They told me to ignore fools like you.Nice indirect ad hominem. You know that you misrepresented the point that I was making to your friends which I feel is somewhat dishonest, but I have come to expect this from you. But in all fairness to you, your EV friends may agree with you and not me, so I am still waiting for you to post the answers to the question that I asked in my previous post, which I will repost it below.Here you are setting up a CONDITION FOR SALVATION. Obviously those who are saved love Jesus. But that is NOT what you asked, rather you are trying to show (as you have in the past) that it is not by faith alone, but that there must be other conditions or works in addition to faith for salvation. This is your attempt to undermine the EV position. You see your friends may not know what you are up to on this board.EditurronerCan you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.Here is the questionWhat are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.
Billy Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Was at an EV Bookstore today and I asked 2 of the employees [1 Male,1 Female] if one needed to Love Jesus to be Saved and both stated YES because you need to have a relationship started with Jesus Christ to become Saved.I addressed this in post #615.A little recap. I never said that those who are saved do not love Jesus, reread my post. What I said was things that we do like works, ordinances like baptism, love God and love your neighbor are not CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION, rather they spring from the fact that we are already saved, i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you are saved by faith ALONE, what does ALONE mean? You are trying to confuse Salvation and Sanctification which are two entirely different things.Give me a list of requirements that we MUST DO for Salvation in addition to our faith.
Tanyan Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 I addressed this in post #615.A little recap. I never said that those who are saved do not love Jesus, reread my post. What I said was things that we do like works, ordinances like baptism, love God and love your neighbor are not CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION, rather they spring from the fact that we are already saved, i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you are saved by faith ALONE, what does ALONE mean? You are trying to confuse Salvation and Sanctification which are two entirely different things.Give me a list of requirements that we MUST DO for Salvation in addition to our faith. Word play - Love Jesus to "be Saved" you said no, no qualifiers "Are Saved" because you Love Jesus Contradiction alert !. Faith [Pistis] a work which is a condition for Salvation as are Repentence/Baptism/Recieving The Gift Of The Holy Ghost and Enduring to the end [salvation Maintenence, no OSAS]. Yes you are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone though Faith [Pistis] alone. Now Faith [Pistis] is a action word that must be worked at constantly. You would not have been Orthodox in Biblical/Early post Biblical Salvation Soteriology. Heritic perhaps you would have been. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Billy Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Yes you are Saved by Grace [Charis] alone though Faith [Pistis] alone.Agree 100% with this statement. Notice that you even use the word alone, again I agree with your use of the word alone. Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"Now Faith [Pistis] is a action word that must be worked at constantly.Now wait a minute. You turned the table on me with this statement. Now you say that it is by works. Make up your mind, which one is it? Notice above that you used the word ALONE. What is your definition of alone, maybe it is unique one, and by defining it for me I might understand your position more clearly. If your new definition of FAITH ALONE=WORKS, please give me your laundry list of WORKS that must be done FOR SALVATION.
urroner Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 I addressed this in post #615.A little recap. I never said that those who are saved do not love Jesus, reread my post. What I said was things that we do like works, ordinances like baptism, love God and love your neighbor are not CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION, rather they spring from the fact that we are already saved, i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you are saved by faith ALONE, what does ALONE mean? You are trying to confuse Salvation and Sanctification which are two entirely different things.Give me a list of requirements that we MUST DO for Salvation in addition to our faith.We must accept Jesus.We must love Jesus.We must learn to do his will.And Billy, how do we love Jesus?And like you just said Billy, we must have faith in Jesus.And like it says in the Bible, we must work out our salvation with fearing and trembling.
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