Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[kantgomo]

IMO, terms need to be defined at the beginning of the thread so we won't talk past one another. For example, there is a difference in the EV definition of salvation and LDS general vs. individual salvation, justifiction, sanctification, etc. Really, IMO, it would take a systematic theology study for us to avoid talking past one another. Can that be done on a message board where there are multiple posters? I'm not sure it could be done effectively.

I'm sure if Billy said you didn't have to love Jesus to be saved, perhaps he could have clarified his statement better. I would have to say that unless God makes a change in us, before that change, we do not seek God. I don't think we're capable of loving Jesus until we have been regenerated. At least in the sense that he demands of us.

[urroner]

IMO, terms need to be defined at the beginning of the thread so we won't talk past one another. For example, there is a difference in the EV definition of salvation and LDS general vs. individual salvation, justifiction, sanctification, etc. Really, IMO, it would take a systematic theology study for us to avoid talking past one another. Can that be done on a message board where there are multiple posters? I'm not sure it could be done effectively.

I'm sure if Billy said you didn't have to love Jesus to be saved, perhaps he could have clarified his statement better. I would have to say that unless God makes a change in us, before that change, we do not seek God. I don't think we're capable of loving Jesus until we have been regenerated. At least in the sense that he demands of us.

This thread was suppose to be one about definitions, especially about what the definition of "works" is. I gave a definition and revelation copied a definition of "works," but it had several differing definitions in it, but I don't remember Billy ever giving one and if he did, I apologize for missing it. What I have heard from Billy is what "works" aren't, but that doesn't help very much define what it is.

[Billy]

This thread was suppose to be one about definitions, especially about what the definition of "works" is. I gave a definition and revelation copied a definition of "works," but it had several differing definitions in it, but I don't remember Billy ever giving one and if he did, I apologize for missing it. What I have heard from Billy is what "works" aren't, but that doesn't help very much define what it is.

I am still waiting for the answer to my question from your EV friends about the conditions/works/ordinances that are required for salvation.

Here you are setting up a CONDITION FOR SALVATION. Obviously those who are saved love Jesus. But that is NOT what you asked, rather you are trying to show (as you have in the past) that it is not by faith alone, but that there must be other conditions or works in addition to faith for salvation. This is your attempt to undermine the EV position. You see your friends may not know what you are up to on this board.

Edit

urroner

Can you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.

Here is the question

What are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.

[Billy]

I'm sure if Billy said you didn't have to love Jesus to be saved, perhaps he could have clarified his statement better. I would have to say that unless God makes a change in us, before that change, we do not seek God. I don't think we're capable of loving Jesus until we have been regenerated. At least in the sense that he demands of us.

I think urroner is pretty clear on the definitions. What he is trying to do is to try and get EV's to add things, sort of like a list, in addition to faith alone for salvation. I am not sure on his motive but I think that if he can get us to say that more things are required for salvation, then we base our salvation on works, just like the LDS do. Therefore we both have a checklist of things to do TO BE SAVED in addition to our faith. Works, love for God, love for our fellow man are our fruit OF salvation, not a check list of things that we must do to GET SALVATION. For example, do EV's believe that baptism is required for salvation--NO. Do EV's get baptized--YES. What he is doing is asking questions about things that we would place under the category of sanctification, not salvation, and when we say that "no" that it does not fall under the category of salvation, he runs with that and says that we do not believe in "fill in the blank", which I have told him in the past that is purposeful misrepresentation.

"Salvation

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior is the only â??stepâ? to salvation. The message of the Bible is abundantly clear. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). Because of our sin, we deserve to be eternally separated from God (Romans 6:23). Because of His love for us (John 3:16), God took on human form and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). God promises forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven to all who receive, by grace through faith, Jesus Christ as Savior (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 16:31)."

http://www.gotquestions.org/steps-to-salvation.html

[Tanyan]

Agree 100% with this statement. Notice that you even use the word alone, again I agree with your use of the word alone.

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Now wait a minute. You turned the table on me with this statement. Now you say that it is by works. Make up your mind, which one is it? Notice above that you used the word ALONE. What is your definition of alone, maybe it is unique one, and by defining it for me I might understand your position more clearly.

If your new definition of FAITH ALONE=WORKS, please give me your laundry list of WORKS that must be done FOR SALVATION.

We are Saved by Grace/Charis [Alone] Through Faith/Pistis[Alone]. Pistis used anchiently was not a passive but active work word. A laundry list , pray tell Faith needs to be worked on just as the Thessalonians work of Faith was [1 Thess 1:3]. There Faith was the same as any N.T Saint/Christian.

Salvation maintenence is required by your work of Faith to stay Saved in the Covenant of Jesus Christ Blood Sacrifice that was accessed when one Believes and has Faith in Jesus Christ as there LORD OF LIFE/LORD/SAVIOR/GOD/KING/MASTER and enters into the Covenant of Grace with him.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[urroner]

I think urroner is pretty clear on the definitions. What he is trying to do is to try and get EV's to add things, sort of like a list, in addition to faith alone for salvation. I am not sure on his motive but I think that if he can get us to say that more things are required for salvation, then we base our salvation on works, just like the LDS do. Therefore we both have a checklist of things to do TO BE SAVED in addition to our faith. Works, love for God, love for our fellow man are our fruit OF salvation, not a check list of things that we must do to GET SALVATION. For example, do EV's believe that baptism is required for salvation--NO. Do EV's get baptized--YES. What he is doing is asking questions about things that we would place under the category of sanctification, not salvation, and when we say that "no" that it does not fall under the category of salvation, he runs with that and says that we do not believe in "fill in the blank", which I have told him in the past that is purposeful misrepresentation.

Once again, Billy is coming up with a list of excuses for his not wanting to define "works." I really don't blame him because I doubt if he can without either distorting the definition in such a way that one and all will see those distortions or he will realize that "works" are involved in his salvation. I can't come up with no other reason of why he won't, at least, try to define "works."

Once again, let me give my definition of works - "Anything that we have to do with our own volition." Now, was that too hard? Billy, what is wrong with this definition?

But then again, what I find interesting is that Billy towards the end of his post accuses me of things that I haven't done yet, but something that he does with great glee. Is this character projection?

So Billy, can you come up with a definition for "works?"

[Billy]

. . .Salvation maintenence. . .

I like YOUR term "Salvation maintenance". Where does it talk about salvation maintenance? How can you loose your salvation, besides you relinquishing your faith in Christ?

[Billy]

Once again, Billy is coming up with a list of excuses for his not wanting to define "works."

Once again, I see you do not want to include what is required for salvation besides faith, from your EV friends.

I have said repeatedly that salvation is by faith alone. And faith is not a work.

[urroner]

Once again, I see you do not want to include what is required for salvation besides faith, from your EV friends.

I asked for a definition a long time before you asked me to ask my friends. I think that you just don't want to come up with a definition. What I see here is you are trying to get me to do your work for coming up with a definition. Sorry, you will have to do your own work here Billy.

I didn't ask for what is required for salvation besides faith, all I asked was for a definition for "works." That is all I asked for a definition and you are doing everything to avoid giving one. To tell you the truth Billy, as I see it, I honestly don't think you can. I have asked my EV friends who believe in grace only and they realize that they can't do it either, so please don't wait for them. My EV friends who believe that works are involved in their salvation, and they do exist Billy, have no problem with my definition.

I have said repeatedly that salvation is by faith alone. And faith is not a work.

You keep saying this and saying this and saying this, but it still not a definition of what "works" are, rather it is a poor definition of what it isn't. Can't you see the difference?

[Tanyan]

I like YOUR term "Salvation maintenance". Where does it talk about salvation maintenance? How can you loose your salvation, besides you relinquishing your faith in Christ?

Billy, yes it is "MY" phrasology using the phrase "Salvation Maintenence". Constant rebellion against the Covenant of Grace you accepted and entered into when you made JESUS CHRIST your LORD OF LIFE/LORD/SAVIOUR/GOD/KING/MASTER. Salvation maintenece is maintained by applying Christ Grace into one's Temporal/Spiritual Being/DNA by way of Charis [Grace] through [Pistis] Faith.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Once again, I see you do not want to include what is required for salvation besides faith, from your EV friends.

I have said repeatedly that salvation is by faith alone. And faith is not a work.

Yes Salvation is by Faith alone [on condition you understand how that word was applied anchienly in the Biblical O.T/N.T world] . Faith is a work - 1 Thess 1:3 - The Thess work of Faith was the same as any True N.T Saint. True Faith is a Gift from GOD that one must acceess/use to access Jesus Christs Grace into there lives. Agony and striving are required from those who are in Christ Jesus.

In His Debt/Grace.

[Billy]

I asked for a definition a long time before you asked me to ask my friends. I think that you just don't want to come up with a definition. . .

You keep saying this and saying this and saying this, but it still not a definition of what "works" are, rather it is a poor definition of what it isn't.

Again you are not being completely honest because I gave you my definition a long time ago (post 85), to which you responded to directly, so I know that you saw it. You did not like my definition, but I at least tried my best to give you a definition.

So Billy, can you define "works?" I really don't want to hear what it isn't, that is worthless.

Maybe as a kick-start, is work something that we do on our own volition or a subset thereof, or is it something that is done for us with ours having no choice? If it is a subset of the initial choice, what defines this subset?

BTW, can we be saved if we don't love Jesus?

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Now that I pointed you to my definition of works--that I provided for you on December 28,08, I will restate my question for you that you keep avoiding for some reason. I am persisting with this point because YOU brought your EV friends into this thread when you stated in your post "I told them about this belief of yours to some Evangelicals that I work with and they refused to believe a true Evangelical would ever say that. I showed them your post as proof and they all told me that you ain't no Evangelical, that you are a atheist plant. They told me to ignore fools like you."

You see, you misrepresented what I was saying to your friends, and when I call you on it you are trying to avoid my question by misdirection, like you did above about a definition about works, which I already provided.

So here it is again, in case you missed it the first, second, and third time.

urroner

Can you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.

Here is the question

What are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.

[urroner]

Billy said:

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Billy, is this your definition of works or is this a definition that you are trying to foist onto me? According to this "defintion," Evagelicals, like you, can't have works, good works, bad works, any kind of work, because Evangelicals, like you, don't think there is squat you can do for your salvation. This is why I ignored this "definition," because it's not your definition.

Sorry to disappoint you Billy. I asked for your definition and once again, you haven't given it to me. BTW, I have started a new thread today about defining "works." If you want to participate on that thread, please don't try defining "works" for me like you did here. It just goes to show that your attitude and thoughts are as pure as you try to make them out to be.

TRUE or FALSE - There can be works of righteousness and works of faith, but if I believe your definition, they don't exist.

[urroner]

Can you ask your EV friends a question for me and post their responses on this thread? I think that this will help to clear up any misconceptions. I look forward to what they have to say.

Here is the question

What are the CONDITONS/WORKS/ORDINANCES that are absolutely necessary for salvation? I am not talking about things that we do out of love for God or about our ongoing sanctification, but specifically about salvation.

I have asked that question throughout the years while living here in the South and I get a wide range of answers, everything from extreme Calvinism where we have no choice in being saved or going to hell, to works are important to ones salvation and if one is saved, one can lose their salvation by ones actions. Some believe that repentance and baptism are not necessary since that would involve works while others feel that baptism and repentance are absolutely necessary and if one isn't baptized, one can not be saved.

[Billy]

Billy, is this your definition of works or is this a definition that you are trying to foist onto me?

Yes this is my definition (relevant to your question in this thread) which I have given you twice now.

Sorry to disappoint you Billy. I asked for your definition and once again, you haven't given it to me.

You ask me for a definition of works, which I promply gave you, and I have give it to you again for the second time, and now you say I haven't given it to you. I will give it to you again a third time and maybe this time it will stick.

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

[Tanyan]

Once again , Faith is a Work 1 Thess 1:3. There Faith was the same as any other N.T Saint/Christian that were required to have to be/become/stay Saved..

Yes it is by Charis [Grace] Alone Through Faith [Pistsi] Alone. Jesus Christs Grace [Charis] is accessed/activated/made alive by Faith [Pistis] - Pistis being a Powerful action word in one's own life.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Billy]

Once again , Faith is a Work 1 Thess 1:3. There Faith was the same as any other N.T Saint/Christian that were required to have to be/become/stay Saved..

Yes it is by Charis [Grace] Alone Through Faith [Pistsi] Alone. Jesus Christs Grace [Charis] is accessed/activated/made alive by Faith [Pistis] - Pistis being a Powerful action word in one's own life.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Faith is not a work. The scripture that you quoted does not say that faith is a work. Rather it says that because of your faith it produced works. If I am tired I go to sleep. Sleep did not make me tired.

1 Thess 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Tanyan]

Yes Faith is a work a Mental effort to produce results. All of the work[which is work] is produced by Faith [which is a work]. KJV says: Your work of Faith and labor of Love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

Saved by Charis [Grace] Through Pistis [Faith].

[urroner]

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

So Billy, according to your definition, can an true Evangelical Christian have works?

Edited: Copied to other thread

[Tanyan]

Faith is not a work. The scripture that you quoted does not say that faith is a work. Rather it says that because of your faith it produced works. If I am tired I go to sleep. Sleep did not make me tired.

1 Thess 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I went to the Claremont School of Theology and asked a couple of my friends there who read koine greek and told them your reading of 1 Thess 1:3. One stated that you can basicaly read into it different meanings from the Greek, The other looked at it in the Greek and stated that the word "produced" is not there [ subject genitive or object genitive ?]. He then refered me to - http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/XLIV/44-3.htm

http://michaelpahl.blogspot.com/2007/10/pi...-of-christ.html

AfterthatI went to a local Greek orthodox Church and talked with the Priest there [Who is a native Greek from Greece]. He looked up the 1 Thess 1:3 and stated and showed me the word "produced" is not there but is "grows exceedingly" which is what his Bible polyglot showed that ones Faith [A work-mental-physical] must be worked on to be cultivated and grow. Its like getting married or recieving a new car, you must recieve it work at [Cultivate to grow] the the union and maintain the car. Said that different people read it differently.

The Coptic Orthodox Priiest just plainly said that we were talking past one another.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan,LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[revelation]

I asked Billy:

Too which you responded:

To which I responded:

I asked Billy that question because he said:

So Billy asks a question he knows is silly, well, at least he should, and I called him to answer for himself.

Now, back to what you said:

You paraphased the book "MoF" by saying that it states that "God's infinite mercy doesn't kick in until you have lived ALL of the commandments" and then you pull the quote out of the book that you said where it came from, ""Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation ."

Okay, how you paraphrased the quote and what the quote says are two different things.

Let's use a sporting event for example. The idea is to win the final race, but there are lots of heats along the way. I can guarantee that I can win the final race by winning all the races I'm in. Any disagreement there?

No, let's say that I lose one of the races, can I still win the final race. That all depends. If it's in the final race, then no, but if I lose in a heat, I could still advance to the final. It all depends upon the rules. If I come in last in one of the heats, then I doubt if I will advance, but if they take all the people who came in the top three of the heats and advanced them, then if I lost, but came in the top three, then I could advance, else I don't advance.

So, if I win all the races, then I am guaranteed the top spot at the end, but if I lose along the way, I'm not guaranteed that top spot.

If I keep all the commandments, never sin, would God say "No Urroner, you did everything I asked you to do and then some more, no Heaven for you." Hey, the price of sin is death, but if I'm without sin, then what? Do you think the price of keeping all of God's commandments and never needing to repent is also the worthy of death?

But, that is a discussion that none of us need to worry about because we all have sinned.

Your paraphrase says that we believe that we have to keep all of the commandments else we believe that God will withhold His mercy is not anything like what we believe or what Pres. Kimball said in "TMoF."

I am not sure what you mean. The line in the book is exactly as follows: "Living ALL the commandments guarentees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his sermon on the mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect"(Mathew 5:48)"Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

Now granted, a little later on it talks about growing perfect. But then it goes on to say: "As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality" (Page 208 and 209 Miracle of Forgiveness - Spencer Kimball)

[Anijen]

How would you guys interpret Matt 25:33-41 when those who did not do certain things shall go into eternal punishment? Sounds like a work is needed. Personally to me there is no other way to understand this other than what it says.

Anijen ~ who thinks that faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

I know my works cant save me nothing can but Christ.

I believe (and whosoever believeth will have eternal life) I can show that faith by works (James 2).

I am also not a big proponent of; faith alone, no works are needed, OSAS, or the Calvinistic belief of Unconditional Election.

I guess since I was saved at the age of 14 it really doesn't matter does it, just hedging my bets with being a Mormon (EV's hate it when I say this and question my salvation, like they know my heart and experiences better than myself)

[revelation]

How would you guys interpret Matt 25:33-41 when those who did not do certain things shall go into eternal punishment? Sounds like a work is needed. Personally to me there is no other way to understand this other than what it says.

Anijen ~ who thinks that faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

I know my works cant save me nothing can but Christ.

I believe (and whosoever believeth will have eternal life) I can show that faith by works (James 2).

I am also not a big proponent of; faith alone, no works are needed, OSAS, or the Calvinistic belief of Unconditional Election.

I guess since I was saved at the age of 14 it really doesn't matter does it, just hedging my bets with being a Mormon (EV's hate it when I say this and question my salvation, like they know my heart and experiences better than myself)

I agree 100% that faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. I also agree that OSAS is a false teaching. However, we are saved by faith and not by works meaning we are saved by faith alone.

But faith is never alone as in Mathew 25:33-41

[Tanyan]

Saved By Charis Through Pistis !. Pistis keeps you in Charis ! .

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[revelation]

Saved By Charis Through Pistis !. Pistis keeps you in Charis ! .

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I only speak english LOL