Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Could you expound a little bit more about your definition of "works?"Here is my definition of works with respect to salvation.Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.Now that I answered your question, how about answering my questionWhat is your definition of salvation?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 Jesus has forgiven all your sins - even the ones you are still in. Jesus didnâ??t forgive the righteous, he forgave the ungodly. You and I are poor spiritual beggars - unable to meet the conditions. Therefore Jesus has forgiven all our sins-even the ones we are still in. If you refuse to believe that you are forgiven then you have forfeited what was freely given to you. Basically saying you don't want it.The whole world was forgiven that day on the cross. No conditions. Many donâ??t know it. Those who do know it are called to bring the good news to those who donâ??t.You believe you are forgiven for all your sins but you donâ??t show thanks to God. That is like being made rich and throwing the riches in the garbage.You believe you are forgiven, no conditions. You then suddenly die without having had the opportunity to show thanks to God. You are saved and go to heaven.You cannot give the forgiveness given for YOUR SINS to someone else. You can only share with them the forgiveness they have in Jesus for their own sinsAfter reading your response, it seems to me that there are conditions placed on owning the castle.It does seem that there are conditions placed on the owning the castle. If I don't believe, then I lose the castle. That seems like a condition to me, a very big, important condition.Also the part about giving thanks to God seems to be a condition. If I don't thank God, then the castle is taken away from me.If the castle is a gift, without conditions, then I should be able to give that gift away. If not, then there are conditions placed on this gift, including I can't give the castle to somebody else. It's not that I think I should be able to give it away, but this is one of the conditions placed upon ownership of the castle.So, what happens to those who never find out that God had given them the castle and then die? You say that they are saved, but does that include those who are evil and they never knew about God. Again, it's not that I believe that all who died without knowing God will go to Heaven, but once again, this seems to be a condition placed upon owning the castle.Here is my definition of works with respect to salvation.Now that I answered your question, how about answering my questionWhat is your definition of salvation?Salvation is being saved.
caudicus Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Why doesn't God clear this up for everyone in Christendom and deal out some consistent revelation?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 Why doesn't God clear this up for everyone in Christendom and deal out some consistent revelation?True revelation is consistent, but explaining it, writing it down, interpreting it, and being able to put it in the right context seems to be the problem. Also, being able to admit that maybe we don't know as much as we think we know and allowing others to be right seems to be a problem, not that I have that problem.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Salvation is being saved.Would you agree with this from "Encyclopedia of Mormonism"?http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation"SalvationSee this page in the original 1992 publication.Author: Burton, Alma P.Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the starsâ?¦. So also is the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:40-42). Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22). The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory)."http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 Would you agree with this from "Encyclopedia of Mormonism"?http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation"SalvationSee this page in the original 1992 publication.Author: Burton, Alma P.Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the starsâ?¦. So also is the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:40-42). Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22). The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory)."http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/SalvationYep, I agree and I still stand by my definition.
Flyonthewall Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Of course belief is evidenced by action which is what I have been saying all along. But that doesn' t mean that the action is what saved me.And we do not say that our actions save us either, but we do say they are an essential part.The action is evidence that I am already saved. It is not evidence that I will be saved if I continue to show evidence.So if one has no actions, then what? If, as you say they are already saved, then if they do nothing they will continue to be saved as long as they continue to have that idea?We believe we are forgiven before we overcome our sins. The fact that we know we are forgiven, produces a desire in us to overcome our sins.That is backwards...what motivates us to overcome our sins is that we can be forgiven for them when we do. Why would we need to overcome something that we are already forgiven for? That makes the forgiveness of a sin meaningless if we still have to overcome the sin.We will be judged by our works. Those who did good works as a direct result of being saved are judged as believers. Those who did good works in order to be saved will be judged as unbelievers.This makes no sense! If we do good works because we believe it is the path to eternal life, then we are "unbelievers"...And if we do good works because we are already saved and we don't really need to do them, then and only then are we believers? And what of those who did good works that never heard of Jesus Christ? They can't be judged as a "believer" because they never even heard of Him. There is a need for the teachings of Christ because those who are saved by belief only want to thank God for that by following Christ.LOL! So the teachings of Christ are not for unbelievers, but just for believers to say thanks? If believers don't say thanks are they still saved? I must say, I've never heard that before! lack of faith is grounds for rejecting salvation. Works aren't required to keep it. The Bible teaches us to keep the faith. That's all. Of course, faith cannot help but want do good works.So as long as we keep the idea in our head, we're okay?God has forgiven you for all your sins. So maintaining that is simple. Confess your sins and he is faithful and just and will forgive you your sins. Believe it! Is it easier to overcome your sins when you know you are forgiven already or is it easier to overcome your sins in order to be forgiven?First you say that He has already forgiven us our sins, then you say if we confess our sins then He will forgive us? Has He forgiven us or hasn't He? If He has already forgiven us everything we've done or will do, then why do we need to confess for Him to forgive us again? Refusing the castle is not a work that saves even though it is a work. It is a work that puts us in Hell. Believing all your sins are forgiven is not a work. Faith doesn't save. Grace saves. Faith is simply the hose through which the water of grace flows.And faith sans works is dead. So you area saying dead faith is the hose through which grace flows.My understanding makes much more sense.... Saved by grace through faith. Faith = belief + works. Works are our actions we do to follow the teachings of Christ.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 After reading your response, it seems to me that there are conditions placed on owning the castle.It does seem that there are conditions placed on the owning the castle.Lynn, was there a glitch in the matrix?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 Lynn, was there a glitch in the matrix?If there is no condition place on the free gift, will that free gift ever be taken from me? If that free gift can ever be taken from me, for any reason, then there has to be at least one condition placed on it. I take the red pill.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Billyhttp://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation"SalvationSome degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. . . It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory)."http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvationurroner replies,Yep, I agree and I still stand by my definition.All men (except sons of perdition) will receive salvation, at least in some degree, according to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.Does a murderer who curses God receive salvation?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 urroner replies,Yep, I agree and I still stand by my definition.All men (except sons of perdition) will receive salvation, at least in some degree, according to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.Does a murderer who curses God receive salvation?That's up to God. Wouldn't you agree?
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 That's up to God. Wouldn't you agree?According to LDS theology, salvation (in part) is extended to all mankind except sons of perdition. So some men receive salvation without 1. Faith in Jesus 2. Love for Jesus 3. Doing any works 4. And cursing God. Isn't this true according to what you believe?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 According to LDS theology, salvation (in part) is extended to all mankind except sons of perdition. So some men receive salvation without 1. Faith in Jesus 2. Love for Jesus 3. Doing any works 4. And cursing God. Isn't this true according to what you believe?We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 If there is no condition place on the free gift, will that free gift ever be taken from me?No, a free gift will never be TAKEN from you. But you are not obligated to accept a free gift and once you receive that free gift you are also not obligated to keep that gift, you are free to dispose of it. This can be done by no longer placing your faith in Christ and turning away from God. Remember, just because someone says that they are a Christian, does not necessarily mean that they really are a Christian. There are tares that commingle with the wheat. They may look and sound similar, but they are distinguished by their fruits.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.But this differs from what the "Encyclopedia of Mormonism" states."Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition."
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 No, a free gift will never be TAKEN from you. But you are not obligated to accept a free gift and once you receive that free gift you are also not obligated to keep that gift, you are free to dispose of it. This can be done by no longer placing your faith in Christ and turning away from God. Remember, just because someone says that they are a Christian, does not necessarily mean that they really are a Christian. There are tares that commingle with the wheat. They may look and sound similar, but they are distinguished by their fruits.So if I don't place my faith in Christ and I turn away from God, the free gift will not be taken away from me?
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 So if I don't place my faith in Christ and I turn away from God, the free gift will not be taken away from me?It is not taken from you, you are disposing of it.When someone gives you a gift that you do not like, you may accept that gift, and latter throw it away. The gift giver did not take it from your, you disposed of it yourself.
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 It is not taken from you, you are disposing of it.When someone gives you a gift that you do not like, you may accept that gift, and latter throw it away. The gift giver did not take it from your, you disposed of it yourself.And if I don't want to dispose of it?
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 And if I don't want to dispose of it?Then it is your gift to keep.Salvation is by placing your faith in Christ. The Bible says that those who trust in him will be saved.
Billy Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.So those who do not keep the laws and the ordinances of the Gospel will NOT be saved?
revelation Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 After reading your response, it seems to me that there are conditions placed on owning the castle.It does seem that there are conditions placed on the owning the castle. If I don't believe, then I lose the castle. That seems like a condition to me, a very big, important condition.The Bible teaches you that your sins have all been forgiven you then believe it. But it's not your believing that saved you. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for your sin in full, he forgave you all your sins. That is what saved you. That is grace. Jesus said: "It is finished!" He didn't say: "It is finished when you do...." Faith simply believes it is true because the bible says it is true. Also the part about giving thanks to God seems to be a condition. If I don't thank God, then the castle is taken away from me. It's not a condition because we are working FROM our salvation, not FOR our salvation. If the castle is a gift, without conditions, then I should be able to give that gift away. If not, then there are conditions placed on this gift, including I can't give the castle to somebody else. It's not that I think I should be able to give it away, but this is one of the conditions placed upon ownership of the castle. You have to remember that the castle represents our full and complete forgiveness for all of our personal sins. Therefore there would be no need to give your castle to someone else. They too have full and complete forgiveness for all of their personal sins in Jesus. So, what happens to those who never find out that God had given them the castle and then die? You say that they are saved, but does that include those who are evil and they never knew about God. Again, it's not that I believe that all who died without knowing God will go to Heaven, but once again, this seems to be a condition placed upon owning the castle. They are forgiven but unless they believe they are forgiven, they forfeit the gift. Everyone who is presently in outer darkness was forgiven. Even the vilest offender. But they alone take the responsibility for their unbelief or rejection of the truth. Whoever believes will be saved. The Bible teaches that men will be without excuse.Does that make sense? Can you see how believing isn't what saves us. Grace saved us?Hypothetically speaking lets suppose Al throws a punch at Bob and knocks Bob out cause he's ticked off at Bob. Bob wakes up and tells Al he is forgiven even before Al apologizes or shows any remorse for what he did even though Bob meant he was truly forgiven with all of his heart. If Al isn't remorseful, he probably would reject Bob's forgiveness and walk off in a huff. If Al was remorseful, he could either believe that Bob forgave him and their freindship and trust would continue as usual. Or Al could choose not to believe Bob forgave him and run off still feeling remorseful but unable to maintain the good freindship because he didn't trust Bob. He didn't have that forgiveness. If Al didn't trust that Bob forgave him, he would never after that trust anything Bob did because he would think everything Bob did was some sort of "revenge" against him. If Al maintained the freindship anyways, even though he rejected Bob's forgiveness, he might do good things for Bob as good freinds do for one another, but his heart wouldn't really be in it. At least not deep within. Or, Al might try to do good things for Bob in order to earn that forgiveness. But there are two problems with this. First, Al doesn't trust his freind but true freindship must be built on trust. Second, Bob would see right through that effort and be insulted because of the lack of trust which showed because Al thought he had to earn forgiveness. But Bob, being a true freind thought Al should know that he meant more to Bob as a freind than that! Bob doesn't think Al is a good freind because Al can do good things for him, Bob was freinds with Al because of who Al is not because of what Al can do! Big difference! Freinds, true freinds, are supposed to forgive each other unconditionally. If Al has to earn Bob's forgiveness by doing good things for him first, then Bob is not a true freind because Bob would be using Al to do good things for him instead of caring about who Al is as a person, Bob would only be caring about what Al can do for him! That's totally selfish!This scenario teaches some important truths about God's word:1) True freinds never forgive conditionally because they love you for who you are and not for what you can do for them2) One freind who forgives another unconditionally doesn't expect good in return, but the other, if he is a good and true freind, will do good in return just because his freind is such a great freind! 3)Unconditional forgiveness is a powerful motivator in any freindship!4)Unconditional forgiveness restores relationships5)unconditional forgiveness makes relationships permanent (unfailing)In fact, the freind who is motivated by unconditional forgiveness is more likely to do heartfelt things for his freind than the one who in conditionally motivated! The one who is conditionally motivated can certainly do good things for a freind, but his whole heart just isn't in it. Can you see what I am saying?So being saved by faith alone is more motivating than being saved by faith plus something we do.Being forgiven unconditionally by faith alone is more motivating than being saved on condition of something we do. The reason is because our focus is on how great our freind is rather than on how great we have to become! Love like that motivates!Does that answer your questions?
urroner Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 So those who do not keep the laws and the ordinances of the Gospel will NOT be saved?If God decides not to save them, then they won't be saved. It seems to me that you expect me to decide whether people should be saved or damned. I really appreciate you faith in me, but you faith in me in extremely misplaced. I have no desire to place my butt in Christ's judgement seat. Why do you want me to judge others?
Flyonthewall Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 The Bible teaches you that your sins have all been forgiven you then believe it. But it's not your believing that saved you. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for your sin in full, he forgave you all your sins. That is what saved you. That is grace. Jesus said: "It is finished!" He didn't say: "It is finished when you do...." Faith simply believes it is true because the bible says it is true.This is what the Bible says about forgiveness:Matt. 6: 12, 14-15 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Doesn't sound like forgiveness is a foregone conclusion...Mark 11: 25-26 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. Matt. 18: 21 - 35 21
Hoops22 Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 This is what the Bible says about forgiveness:Matt. 6: 12, 14-15 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Doesn't sound like forgiveness is a foregone conclusion...Mark 11: 25-26 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. Matt. 18: 21 - 35 21
Flyonthewall Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 But, of course, there was no payment for sin when He said this.So are you saying these words of Christ are no longer in effect? We can disregard these words?Perhaps we can disregard all of Christ's words before He paid the price?
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.