Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

[johnny]

ERayR

THEN YOU ARE NOT LISTENING. TURN UP YOUR HEARING AID.

Please provide the quotes or the posting number ... thanks.

[LifeOnaPlate]

johnny, does it bother you at all that you are probably the most tenacious and long-winded, though dry as bones critic I've ever had the privilege of feeling un-listened to with? Your ability to seem robotic, inflexible, monotonous, boring, and unmoveable is amazing. The sheer number of repetitious points you make without directly engaging me is very impressive. It's like playing chess against a computer game.

[johnny]

LifeOnaPlate

johnny, does it bother you at all that you are probably the most tenacious and long-winded, though dry as bones critic I've ever had the privilege of feeling un-listened to with? Your ability to seem robotic, inflexible, monotonous, boring, and unmoveable is amazing. The sheer number of repetitious points you make without directly engaging me is very impressive. It's like playing chess against a computer game.

Have a nice day.

[Anijen]

urroner

God does not force us to be saved. Being saved is about grace and faith. Our part is faith, God's part is grace. He doesn't save all because men have the free choice to believe or not believe. If they do not believe then they are damned.

It is a matter of believing. Christ does not force you to believe. You have a decision, you can believe or not believe.

It is a matter of grace and faith, works have no part in being saved. You have a decision to believe or not believe.

The position of some Christians is grace and faith.

It is your choice if you want to go to to Hell. If you do not believe you are damned.

Works plays no part in being saved, it is only grace and faith.

I believe. So why would you consider me damned?

[shalamabobbi]

I believe. So why would you consider me damned?

Your belief isn't passive enough.. try watching more TV..

[LifeOnaPlate]

LifeOnaPlate

Have a nice day.

Care to answer my other question though? The one about you ever admitting a faulty reading, or saying "gee, I hadn't thought of it like that." The reason I ask is because I am wondering of you are capable of changing your mind, learning something new, or being a worthwhile participant in dialogue.

[coolrok7]

Urroner: Johnny, do you believe that 1+1+1+1=4 or 2+2=4. Which is it?

Johnny: They are the same. They are both true.

Urroner: Oh Johnny, if they are the same, why the extra numbers in the first. Get real Johnny.

Does the Bible have to have the words "after all we can do" in it for it to be true? Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? I guess that your belief in the Trinity has just been disproved by your argument. Now, wasn't that a silly argument.

The issue is urroner that the phrase "after all we can do" was added in the BofM by Joseph Smith to the Ephesians verse Joseph plagiarized from:

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

All you have to do is to look at theGreek manuscripts still in existence and see. Jospeh's version of John 1:1 in the JST is also not backed up in any Greek manuscript as well:

In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. (JST, Joseph Smith translation of the Bible)

John 1:1-2, 14- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Your analogy to the math problem is more accurately stated this way, 1x1x1=1 not 1+1+1=1, which is the "trinitarian" formula to mean that God is one as Jesus quoted from the Old Testament. In the New Testament it is further stated:

Jesus answered, . . .â??HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORDâ? (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, â??All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Joseph said that God told him:

for they were all wrong; . . .all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;

It's also quite revealing that Joseph included an "abominable" phrase into the BofM from the Nicene Creed which was used to defend the deity of Jesus which was disputed by Arius of Alexandria who taught that Jesus did not exist before He became the man in the statement, "once the son of God did not exist":

And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the [*]very God. (Mormon 3:21)

*the term very God was used to defend the deity of Christ in the Nicene creed (against the Arian heresy). The term very is not in the Greek manuscripts of the Bible but appears in the King James translation alongside the term Christ in John 7:26:

But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

[Anijen]

urroner

So you don't have to go fishing, below are some scriptures. From these scriptures is evident that belief is not considered a work because these scriptures say over and over "not of works" , see below:

• Acts.16 ([30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house)
  
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• Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  
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• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  

It is my opinion all this works talk Paul was speaking of the Law of Moses. You do not have to count your steps on a sabbath, or wash yourself a number of times etc etc. Any person who believes in Jesus Christ (including a Mormon)will be saved and a person who believes is considered a follower of Christ a disciple and a disciple keeps his commandments. If we do not we will be numbered with the goats as in Matt 25

[Billy]

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Urroner replies,

BTW, what do you mean by "outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ." Is loving Christ outside of faith alone?

Again you are trying to split hairs and add stipulations to faith/belief alone by your comment.

Loving Christ is a natural reaction to what Christ has done for you, but is it a condition FOR salvation? No.

You don't love Christ because it is a checklist thing to do FOR salvation, you love Christ because of what he has done for you.

And if you feel the need to call faith a work see John 6 quote below. I quess I don't understand how faith in Christ and accepting his sacrifice for you on the cross is a work. Accepting a gift--to me--is not a work.

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[shalamabobbi]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So Jesus sent himself then? or the Father of Jesus sent him?

[onefour1]

I'm new to this board. I had a discussion a few years back on this topic on the beliefet boards. A link to my former discussion can be found at this link: On Grace and Works. What it boils down to is that faith includes works. For James has said, "Faith without works is dead". Thus the works of faith are the criteria by which God will judge us.

[Anijen]

I'm new to this board. I had a discussion a few years back on this topic on the beliefet boards. A link to my former discussion can be found at this link: On Grace and Works. What it boils down to is that faith includes works. For James has said, "Faith without works is dead". Thus the works of faith are the criteria by which God will judge us.

Welcome, and I agree like CS Lewis said faith and works are like scissors one blade does not work without the other (paraphrased)

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

It has bearing on blessings, those who hear the word and do the word shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). Faith is made perfect by doing (James 2:21-23).

Is dead faith enough for salvation?

This is different that what LDS say, LDS say "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". LDS associate it with "saved".

What I hear LDS say that "salvation without exaltation is damnation". What I do not hear LDS saying is the just live by faith, we are justified by faith (Gal 3:11,24) and that what counts is faith which works by love, we walk and live in the Spirit, good fruit comes from the Spirit (Gal 5:3-25).

I think you confuse the various different meanings or usages of the term "saved" or "salvation" that are used by the LDS. Here is a link that deals with the different ways "salvation" is used: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...0004d82620a____

Saved can mean something as simple as resurrection, which is automatic, or it can mean something as lofty as the Celestial Kingdom. One can be saved in the Telestial and Terrestial kingdoms as well. So when used in one particular way, salvation does not require anything more than just being born...no works, no nothing. In a different usage, salvation in the Celestial kingdom requires obedience to the commandments and teachings of Christ because it couples salvation with reward.

Damnation, in a broad sense, can include not being in the presence of the Father, which is anything other than the Celestial kingdom, but this is not equivalent to the concept of damnation held by traditional christianity.

So I think you are not clear on LDS definitions and usages of "saved", "salvation", and "damnation". I also don't think you are making clear you usage of the terms "works", "works of faith", and "works of mercy".

[johnny]

onefour1

I'm new to this board.

Welcome to the board ...

What it boils down to is that faith includes works. For James has said, "Faith without works is dead". Thus the works of faith are the criteria by which God will judge us.

What kind of "works" is James describing?

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Is dead faith enough for salvation?

No, because salvation is belief and sanctification of the Spirit.

Saved can mean something as simple as resurrection, which is automatic, or it can mean something as lofty as the Celestial Kingdom.

Are you saying that saved is automatic, if so I would disagree?

I would agree that resurrection is automatic.

So when used in one particular way, salvation does not require anything more than just being born...no works, no nothing.

You seem to disagree with scripture ... You say "salvation does not require anything", scripture says salvation is belief and sanctification of the Spirit (2Thes 2:13).

In a different usage, salvation in the Celestial kingdom requires obedience to the commandments and teachings of Christ because it couples salvation with reward.

What commandments are you talking about?

We keep God's commandments because we love Him not for salvation (John 14:15-23).His commandant is believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23-24).

So I think you are not clear on LDS definitions and usages of "saved", "salvation", and "damnation". I also don't think you are making clear you usage of the terms "works", "works of faith", and "works of mercy".

My usage of "damnation" when I said LDS say "salvation without exaltation is damnation" is consistent with what the LDS church teaches:

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Damnation - The state of being stopped in oneâ??s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

[urroner]

Johnny, you really amuse me. You throw a bunch of scriptures up and then you want us to explain them to you. Is that what they teach you in the RCC, throw scriptures around, don't explain how they back you up, but challenge the others to explain them to you, this way, you don't have to think and you don't have to defend yourself. I'll have to ask some of the other RCCers on this board if this is what they were taught. David Waltz probably does the very same thing.....no, no he doesn't. Interestingly, he reasons very well with a minimal of scriptures. He explains his position very well. In fact, most of the RCCers on this board does that also. Perhaps you are an outlier on the RCC.

As far as those of you who refuse to truly define what you mean by works and faith, I honestly doubt if you can. I don't think most of you have put enough thought into it. You seem to be really irritated at us LDSers for not believing like you and when I ask to define what you mean by what you say, you have to realize that I don't understand what you mean and so this is why I am asking you and yet you refuse to realize this.

Have any of you ever spoken to somebody from a different country that spoke English, but yet some of the terms that person uses are very different and by defining more explicitly what you mean, the other person can understand better. Why are you willing to do this here? Do you honestly think that by throwing scriptures at me without explaining them and by saying the very same thing over and over again in the same way are going to help.

I honestly thought that maybe if we could see what is meant when each of us means when we use words like "faith," "belief," and "works" then we could understand each other better, but apparently most of you have no desire to und erstand us and to even have us understand you, you just want us to believe like you. Is this how Jesus would want you to do that?

In physics, work is defined basically as moving an object some distance through the use of a force. In naval definition, work means to give a bit at the joints. Will either of these definitions help?

How about this definition, physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something? Is this a good definition?

But I'm sad to say that I doubt if any of the non-LDSers on this thread will honestly attempt to come up with a definition. They have thrown scriptures at me. They have told me that I'm wrong. They have even told me what work isn't. Do any of you really think that any of the aforementioned activities are going really helping. You have been told that they aren't, yet you must think they are because you keep doing it.

Don't throw scriptures around and expect us to interpret them the same as you do. That doesn't work. Tell me why these scriptures are important and what they mean to you and why they support your position.

Don't tell me why I'm wrong, tell me why you are right. Can you see the difference?

I have asked for a definition of "works" and I get told that Mormons are wrong, Joseph Smith is not a prophet, etc, etc, etc. Where is the definition of "works."

Honestly people, if you don't want to define what you mean by works other then by doing what I have mentioned above, please feel free to feel that you have won the discussion and please, please, please drop out of the thread.

You know, it's really frustrating when my boys do everything but answer a straightforward question, but it's more frustrating when adults on a discussion board do the very same thing, but they do it in a pompous, sanctimonious manner.

[Billy]

I have asked for a definition of "works" and I get told that Mormons are wrong, Joseph Smith is not a prophet, etc, etc, etc. Where is the definition of "works."

It is equally annoying when someone gives you a definition that you request and then you ignore it or simply disregard it, and then say that nobody has given you a definition.

Works are those things that YOU do that YOU think earn YOUR salvation/exaltation outside of faith alone in Jesus Christ.

John 6

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[johnny]

urroner

Tell me why these scriptures are important and what they mean to you and why they support your position.

Tell me what the scriptures I have presented mean to you and if they support your position.

Don't tell me why I'm wrong, tell me why you are right. Can you see the difference?

Tell me were I am wrong with the scriptures I have presented ...

I have asked for a definition of "works" and I get told that Mormons are wrong, Joseph Smith is not a prophet, etc, etc, etc. Where is the definition of "works."

I have asked for scriptures that support your position ... where are these scriptures?

[urroner]

It is equally annoying when someone gives you a definition that you request and then you ignore it or simply disregard it, and then say that nobody has given you a definition.

Did I not ask you specifically Billy for clarification of what you meant? Do you think I was being deceitful in asking? Am I not suppose to ask for clarification? Am I suppose to accept you definition unquestioningly even if I don't understand what you meant?

I am not splitting hairs, I am trying to understand what you meant, which is more than you seem to ever want to do for us.

[urroner]

urroner

Tell me what the scriptures I have presented mean to you and if they support your position.

Once again Johnny, you have listed a plethora of scriptures proclaiming to one and all that they support your position, yet, as is typical of you, you don't explain why they support you. You start telling us why they support your position and then real discussion begins, otherwise you are just taking a lazy man's approach to the thread. You want us to do all the work while you do very little.

Tell me were I am wrong with the scriptures I have presented ...

Once again, let me repeat myself, maybe you haven't heard the first 1,000,0000,000 times, tell me why you are right. I don't even know how you think you are right, so how can I respond.

I have asked for scriptures that support your position ... where are these scriptures?

Once again, (honestly Johnny, don't you ever get tired of this) if you don't explain why the scriptures support your position, I'll just throw a few scriptures up and, like you, I just say they support my position without explaining how they support my position and then you repeat the process and then I'll repeat the process, to infinity, and, Johnny, where would we be.

If you truly, truly, truly want us to explain to you why we are right, why don't you explain why you are right first. You have been on this board for a long time and people, plenty of people have tried to discuss things with you, but your inane, silly tactics have never changed. You throw up scriptures, quote tradition, throw in nasty, vile throw away statements, and then demand that we explain ourselves to you and explain how what you have posted, support our position.

Johnny, how old are you?

[johnny]

urroner

I'll just throw a few scriptures up

Sounds good ... I like scriptures ...

[urroner]

urroner

Sounds good ... I like scriptures ...

I Cor. 15:29, Isaiah 48:3-5; Revelation 15:4-8; and finally Origen's Against Celsus/Book VIII Chapter IV

Okay, I threw some scriptures up like you did and I even included a ECF quote, now tell me how they back up your position. They do mine, and please don't expect to me tell you how they do, that's for me to know and you to find out.

Are you happy now?

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

No, because salvation is belief and sanctification of the Spirit.

I agree. Dead faith is not enough. Faith requires action, the actions of following Christ and keeping His teachings.

Are you saying that saved is automatic, if so I would disagree?

Here is a good example of not understanding the various usages of saved. Salvation from physical death is the resurrection, and is automatic. Salvation from sin, is something different and requires repentance and obedience.

I would agree that resurrection is automatic.

Ah...common ground.

You seem to disagree with scripture ... You say "salvation does not require anything", scripture says salvation is belief and sanctification of the Spirit (2Thes 2:13).

Sanctification of the spirit is being made clean through the atonement of Christ. To be made clean through the atonement of Christ requires repentance and obedience...as preached by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

What commandments are you talking about?

The 10 of course, and the 2 that Christ gave in synopsis of the 10, and all His other teachings.

We keep God's commandments because we love Him not for salvation (John 14:15-23).His commandant is believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23-24).

Interesting...the commandments of God have nothing to do with salvation. So again, using this line of reasoning, we do not have to be a follower of Christ to be "saved".

My usage of "damnation" when I said LDS say "salvation without exaltation is damnation" is consistent with what the LDS church teaches:

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Damnation - The state of being stopped in oneâ??s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

Which still does not equate to the concept of traditional christianity's damnation, because the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are still kingdoms of glory which partake in the glory of God, albeit in a limited capacity.

[johnny]

urroner

Okay, I threw some scriptures up like you did and I even included a ECF quote, now tell me how they back up your position. They do mine, and please don't expect to me tell you how they do, that's for me to know and you to find out.

I Cor. 15:29 back's up my position the apostles did not practice baptism for dead and that the Mormon practice is not supported by the Bible.

Isaiah 48:3-5 back's up my position that there is one God and that the Mormon doctrine of "three Gods" is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

Revelation 15:4-8 back's up my position that objects in a vision are not the actual objects.

Origen's Against Celsus/Book VIII Chapter IV back's up my position that there is one God and that Joseph Smith's teaching of "three God" is heretical.

Are you happy now?

I am happy that my positions are supported by scripture and by the writings of early Chrstians.

[urroner]

urroner

I Cor. 15:29 back's up my position the apostles did not practice baptism for dead and that the Mormon practice is not supported by the Bible.

Isaiah 48:3-5 back's up my position that there is one God and that the Mormon doctrine of "three Gods" is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

Revelation 15:4-8 back's up my position that objects in a vision are not the actual objects.

Origen's Against Celsus/Book VIII Chapter IV back's up my position that there is one God and that Joseph Smith's teaching of "three God" is heretical.

I am happy that my positions are supported by scripture and by the writings of early Chrstians.

It is a game, though it's not much fun. You still haven't told me how they support your position other than they back up your position. Your position still isn't any clearer than it was before, but that is what I fear, you don't want your position to be clear since you are afraid that it can't withstand any type of scrutiny. Honestly Johnny, I think you are right that it won't.