The Seven Deadly Heresies

[consiglieri]

In 1980, Bruce R. McConkie gave a well-known address called "The Seven Deadly Heresies," in which he lists seven beliefs that if subscribed to put one beyond the pale of salvation:

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?...mp;x=50&y=6

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

For purposes of this discussion, we will follow Elder McConkie's definition of a "heresy," that being some belief (as opposed to an act) that will keep one from being exalted.

I would like to open the discussion to any heresy that Elder McConkie listed or any other "heresy" that he may have missed.

Although I have my own personal feeling as to what heresy is the "worst," I would like to hear what other posters say before I "poison the well" by mentioning my thoughts on the subject.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[fattim85]

My personal opinion is that it's a toss up between 1 & 6.

Heresy 1 compromises God's omniscience.

Heresy 6 has been discussed ad nauseum on this board, but in my mind I don't see how a man can become God without another God endowing him with the same abilities. This poses two immediate problems. Can there be two Gods (all-powerful, all-knowing beings). Second, where did this previous God come from and shouldn't we be worshipping Him/Her/It as Adam did.

Consiglieri: These heresies are confusing to me, because they seem like things that the LDS church teaches. Is McConkie arguing that LDS teachings are heretical compared to mainline Christianity and should be, or is he arguing that the LDS church misapplying some of its own teachings? Or did I completely miss some other angle?

Can you please clarify this for my own understanding?

Thanks!

[LDSMusic483]

In 1980, Bruce R. McConkie gave a well-known address called "The Seven Deadly Heresies," in which he lists seven beliefs that if subscribed to put one beyond the pale of salvation:

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?...mp;x=50&y=6

For purposes of this discussion, we will follow Elder McConkie's definition of a "heresy," that being some belief (as opposed to an act) that will keep one from being exalted.

I would like to open the discussion to any heresy that Elder McConkie listed or any other "heresy" that he may have missed.

Although I have my own personal feeling as to what heresy is the "worst," I would like to hear what other posters say before I "poison the well" by mentioning my thoughts on the subject.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

For me personally, I'd say heresy three. This though because I am a member and it affects me directly. So much damage could be done to my eternal potential by just thinking that by the mere act of being sealed, I'm assured Gods fulness.

Heresy One: I believe that's something that doesn't have too too much to do with my life right now. In fact, I could go on never thinking about it and not worry. I believe the scriptures that say God is all-knowing. If there is more to learn about that, I'll wait until after I'm dead to learn it.

Heresy Two: I think this is probably the least important. I don't think there is a big problem about knowing HOW God got the earth to it's current status. Just knowing that He did it and it isn't just some random happening is sufficient for me.

Heresy Three: See above!

Heresy Four: I think this mainly affects those who aren't members and like to live in sin thinking they can just repent later. This heresy doesn't affect me and I would never think that this possibility should discredit me trying to help people to better their lives.

Heresy Five: I'll concern myself with getting to the highest so I don't have to hope that I could later progress.

Heresy Six: While I don't think it's a good idea to do this, with everything that has been taught since BY it's tough to imagine someone just blindly doing this.

Heresy Seven: While this may be a heresy, I think the only real bad that can come from it is depression. I'd hope that believing this would actually help encourage people to live better lives and strive for perfection. That being said, we never want to teach an inaccuracy like that.

[fattim85]

One other general thought I had on heresy is that the worst ones are the ones that compromise our very conception of who God is. If we have a false perception of God, it causes us to approach God incorrectly and to worship some false idea we have of God. Heresies regarding specific ordinances aren't as important in my opinion because they can be more easily corrected and their bearing on our understanding of God isn't as extreme.

[alter idem]

In 1980, Bruce R. McConkie gave a well-known address called "The Seven Deadly Heresies," in which he lists seven beliefs that if subscribed to put one beyond the pale of salvation:

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?...mp;x=50&y=6

For purposes of this discussion, we will follow Elder McConkie's definition of a "heresy," that being some belief (as opposed to an act) that will keep one from being exalted.

I would like to open the discussion to any heresy that Elder McConkie listed or any other "heresy" that he may have missed.

Although I have my own personal feeling as to what heresy is the "worst," I would like to hear what other posters say before I "poison the well" by mentioning my thoughts on the subject.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'd say heresy one is interesting because this was debated in the early days of the church. BYoung believed god was still progressing and he argued with Orson Pratt who took Elder McConkie's view. It's interesting to note that Orson Pratt's view won out--partly because it is more logical. I enjoyed listening to Blake Ostler's talk at Fair on the fallacies of fundamentalism(thanks to the youtube videos)--I think he addressed this. It's also interesting that BYoung's beliefs on Adam were also discounted with time (heresy 6) of course, I'm not sure exactly what he was trying to explain--but whatever it was, once again, Orson Pratt disagreed with him vehemently, and Pratt's view won out over time.

I don't see number 2 as a big deal.

I'd say many believe no. 3 is correct--at least in part. I'd say we teach that if we are true to the covenants we make in the temple, we are "guaranteed" exhaltation. Would anyone disagree with that? Now, that's not "temple marriage" actually, but I suspect many equate their marriage with their endowment since many get it at the same time (especially women). Maybe we need to do better at clarifying the difference.

heresy 4 is debatable--what's wrong with offering second, third and fourth etc. chances at salvation? I think God loves all his children and what's the purpose of praying for our strayed loved ones if they've blown it and don't have more chances? (I guess I've got a bit of the "heretic" in me!)

I'm not sure the debate over 5 is settled. I know why Elder McConkie didn't like many of these "heresies"--he thought they kept people from working hard and doing their best to live righteous standards.

Personally, I have no trouble citing number seven as the most damaging of the "heresies"--and a real heresy we need to combat within the church. I think this is because it denies the power of the Atonement and if any members come away with this belief, then we as a church are not teaching the true good news of the gospel!

[LDSMusic483]

I'd say many believe no. 3 is correct--at least in part. I'd say we teach that if we are true to the covenants we make in the temple, we are "guaranteed" exhaltation. Would anyone disagree with that? Now, that's not "temple marriage" actually, but I suspect many equate their marriage with their endowment since many get it at the same time (especially women). Maybe we need to do better at clarifying the difference.

Personally, I have no trouble citing number seven as the most damaging of the "heresies"--and a real heresy we need to combat within the church. I think this is because it denies the power of the Atonement and if any members come away with this belief, then we as a church are not teaching the true good news of the gospel!

I think that the two you chose are along the same lines. I believe the issue to what BRM was stating for heresy no. 3 is that people think "hey if I just get sealed, I'm done." I think the heresy he is warning about is people who think that the act alone assures them exhaltation, and that the covenants aren't as important. So instead of not using the atonement because they think it's all on them, they aren't using the atonement because they think that they don't have to do anything more. Considering many members get sealed in their 20's that leaves a good 50-60 years of thinking that everything is set, and you don't need to keep on progressing forward.

[jwhitlock]

Consig:

I think it's important to understand where the Church and its leadership are coming from, vs. where members are coming from.

Over time, I think the Church has come to understand its role as the provider of the ordinances of salvation, as an organization to support and strengthen the family, as a prophetic oracle to provide basic guidance and revelation to keep the saints on the path to exaltation, and as the foundational organization for the eventual establishment of Zion, both physically and spiritually.

The Church does not supersede the authority of the family, but serves as a resource for strengthening the family in a variety of ways. It is worthwhile noting that priesthood authority in the Church is limited by time and geography.

The Church is not responsible for a member's knowledge of the gospel or of truth in general, though they provide resources for the members to gain knowledge.

Individual members of the Church support the Church in those basic roles. Individual members are responsible for their families. They are also responsible - with the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the scriptures - for their own growth in the knowledge, principles, truths, mysteries, etc. of the gospel. While the Church provides the authoritative doctrines for the basics of salvation in this life, it really does not provide much beyond that. Church leaders, speaking about principles, truths, mysteries, etc., do so in a non-binding way. It is up to each individual member to evaluate what is being said, and what is revealed to that person individually, to gain knowledge of truths that can be understood in this life.

Both the Church and individual members must be careful to not infringe upon the designated areas of influence of each other.

I think that Church leaders have come more, over time, to understand the real emphasis of what they need to be doing, and are becoming more careful not to step into areas where their mission does not apply. Conference talks, for instance, do not delve into the mysteries. That is left to the individual member through personal revelation and study. However, leaders of the Church do emphasize a doctrinal understanding of the gospel that clearly supports the mission of the Church in providing the basics of ordinances and salvation, along with a clear understanding of what those mean in this life. They want us, as members of the Church, to perfect ourselves in those basics so that we set a firm foundation in progressing towards having our calling and election made sure.

Individual beliefs or understandings that divert from that mission - whether those beliefs are valid or not - are characterized by the leaders of the Church as not in accordance with the basic mission of the Church.

For instance, we can talk about the relationship of Adam to us and to God, and what BY said about it, and start to come to our own conclusions. But, if we move away from the basic doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ in doing so, then that comes under condemnation from leaders of the Church. There are certain things it is more important to learn in this life than others (the basics), and if we get diverted from those basics in our perspective, leaders of the Church tend to react rather strongly.

From a particular perspective, in defending and defining doctrines within the basic framework of the mission of the Church (salvation and ordinances), I think Elder McConkie was probably mostly correct in his talk on heresies. Those comments are valid within the perspective he has as a leader of the Church, in moving the mission of the Church forward and not losing focus of the basic truths of the gospel. Most members of the Church need to become more grounded in the basics before they go off into the mysteries, so to speak. Hence, leaders of the Church feel the need to make it clear that we should work as if this were our only chance here for salvation, even though God covers all of the bases after this life.

In the case of Elder McConkie as a person, I think he most often got into trouble when he started categorizing things outside of the basics of the gospel as foundational doctrines, in black and white terms. When he stayed within the framework of the mission of the Church, he was most often correct - though you have to read him within that perspective in order to understand him better.

What this all points to is that the emphasis of Church leaders, and the emphasis of members sometimes differ. Perhaps members of the Church can see their understanding of truth, along with their relationship with God, as a superset of what the Church is here to provide. I suspect that it should be so (would that all of God's people were prophets!)

So, as Church leaders speak within the limited framework of the mission of the Church, I think they are typically accurate within that perspective. The prophets are not meant to be oracles for all truth; that is why we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost. I don't think the prophetic leaders of the Church are currently operating in that position as ultimate oracles, but are instead pushing firm faithfulness in the basic doctrines and ordinances of salvation - which provides the firm foundation for the individual stretching towards God.

At least, that's my take on it - long winded though it may be.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Number one is debatable.

Number two is wrong since the church has no official position on organic evolution.

Number three is correct, but it depends on what you mean by "temple marriage." In common usage, he's right. In another usage, he's wrong as D&C 132 makes clear.

Number four is stated poorly. Salvation for the dead can be for some a second chance for salvation in a sense, but not exaltation!

Number five is wrong since the First Presidency said they have no position on the issue. (I can provide the reference when I get home)

Number six is debatable.

Number seven is the only one I agree with 100%, although (if I recall correctly), Bruce R. McConkie says it's the least of the heresies he mentions (haha!)

EDIT: For clarity.

EDIT 2: I think the worst is the one that Elder McConkie thinks is the least. The worst thing we can do is deemphasize the atonement by preaching that we somehow have to save ourselves by being perfect. That destroys the very central doctrine of the gospel and the plan of salvation. It destroys people and their testimonies.

[wenglund]

To me, since these heresies all lead to spiritual death, and since it doesn't get any worse than death, then I am not sure if the heresies can be deliniated in terms of more or less worse. It is like picking among deadly poisons.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

To me, since these heresies all lead to spiritual death, and since it doesn't get any worse than death, then I am not sure if the heresies can be deliniated in terms of more or less worse. It is like picking among deadly poisons.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good point. However, this assumes that Elder McConkie was right in everything he said in the talk. While I tend to agree with what he says, I think there is some room for divergence in some of the issues since 1) the First Presidency has no official position on some of them and 2) different leaders have differed in their views on some of them.

Why should I believe Elder McConkie over the united quorum of the First Presidency?

Why should I believe Elder McConkie over Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, etc?

While I tend to agree with Elder McConkie on these doctrinal issues, I don't think it is black and white like he says it is.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think this is one of the poorest addresses Elder McConkie ever gave, and I disagree with many of his points, the heretic that I am!

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I think this is one of the poorest addresses Elder McConkie ever gave, and I disagree with many of his points, the heretic that I am!

Burn him!!

[cinepro]

Assuming Elder McConkie was correct, I would say heresy #2 is the most dangerous because it is the most common one.

For me personally, heresy #5 would be the most dangerous, because I believe it.

I've never heard someone promote heresies #6 and #7 (except the FLDS for #6), so I would say they're the least dangerous.

[Changeling]

I think the worst heresy here is allowing Elder McConkie to make up your mind for you. That's heresy against the Gift of the Holy Ghost, when you are quite capable of studying out the matter in depth and inquiring of God for yourself.

Elder McConkie has been wrong on other subjects, so he's hardly an infallible source.

[Zeta-Flux]

I'd say that #7 is pretty bad.

I'd agree with others that Elder McConkie overstepped his bounds with #1 (and perhaps some of the others).

[Tsuzuki]

Number four is stated poorly. Salvation for the dead can be for some a second chance for salvation in a sense, but not exaltation!

It's not a second chance for exaltation because exaltation is determined by how one lives their life overall, not what token actions they've performed. Because ordinances will be done for everyone, the playing field is leveled. The only thing that matters now is personal righteousness (in all areas), which can only be proven in this life. But a person can reject the organizational church and still be righteous enough to warrant exaltation. Vicarious ordinances aren't a second chance at exaltation, but they are a facilitator of the first and only chance that is life in general.

[soren]

In 1980, Bruce R. McConkie gave a well-known address called "The Seven Deadly Heresies," in which he lists seven beliefs that if subscribed to put one beyond the pale of salvation:

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?...mp;x=50&y=6

For purposes of this discussion, we will follow Elder McConkie's definition of a "heresy," that being some belief (as opposed to an act) that will keep one from being exalted.

I would like to open the discussion to any heresy that Elder McConkie listed or any other "heresy" that he may have missed.

Although I have my own personal feeling as to what heresy is the "worst," I would like to hear what other posters say before I "poison the well" by mentioning my thoughts on the subject.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Wow, none of my heresies made his list! The only one here I'm guilty of is no. 2, which isn't even a heresy; it's just a question.

[LDSMusic483]

I'd say that #7 is pretty bad.

I'd agree with others that Elder McConkie overstepped his bounds with #1 (and perhaps some of the others).

And what truth has God not learned yet then? You all seem quick to judge his "heresies" as overstepping boudaries, but I'd say that what he says is pretty accurate within the scriptures.

[BCSpace]

Well, the first thing to note is that this is not an official publication of the Church, making it nonbinding. Second, regarding evolution, it's interesting to note that BRM simply doesn't understand how one can accept the theory and still be in harmony with docrine but he essentially admits that if one can explain it in such a way so as not to be in conflict with LDS doctrine, one is fine.

In other words, BRM does not really know what the theory of evolution does and does not postulate and this seems to be the case for many, if not all, LDS opposed to evolution imho. It's a good thing the Church does not take a stand against evolution, but does take a stand for actual doctrine.

Regarding the whole thing in general, I think no such list needs to be made. The fact of the matter is that for one to receive eternal life, one will be in harmony with ALL doctrine and teachings of the Church. It's just as damning to reject the doctrine that children should be baptised at 8 years old as it is to reject the "The Family: A Proclaimation to the World" though one might be easier to repent of than another.

[Rob Osborn]

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

#4 heresy is the worst. The dead are taught the same exact gospel that we are taught. It is not a second chance at salvation at all- it is all the same chance. Obedience to that gospel always brings the same blessings. Those who accept the gospel in the spirit world will be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium to help on the earth to build up the kingdom. BRM has a very flawed and basic misunderstanding of how the gospel works and who it is for. Section 138 makes it very clear that man must repent and be baptized into the kingdom in order to be redeemed from hell. Because they must accept the gospel on the same terms as mortals (brings the same blessings) they will enjoy the same exact blessings as those who accepted it in mortality.

#5 heresy is equally as bad. The temple absolutely teaches the doctrine of progressing through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms to get to the celestial. However one deciphers the temple message concerning the three kingdoms/ worlds of glory, it cannot be mistaken that the path of salvation is a line of progression through both the lower two kingdoms.

#7 heresy is the worst. It denies everything about the gospel and leads us in continuing in our carnal and fallen states giving us a false view that we can be saved and still remain in our sins. The scriptures makes it very clear that Christ saves only those who wash their garments in the blood of the lamb and become "spotless"- cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is the very definition of "perfect". An imperfect being is one who is still in a fallen condition- the type of person Christ has already said he cannot save if he continues to disopbey his commands to repent and be baptized.

[Calm]

And what truth has God not learned yet then? You all seem quick to judge his "heresies" as overstepping boudaries, but I'd say that what he says is pretty accurate within the scriptures.

There are those who believe that God has not learned truths that have not come into existence yet.

[juliann]

For purposes of this discussion, we will follow Elder McConkie's definition of a "heresy," that being some belief (as opposed to an act) that will keep one from being exalted.

I would like to open the discussion to any heresy that Elder McConkie listed or any other "heresy" that he may have missed.

Since we don't think beliefs ultimately keep anyone from being exalted, I'd say the most damaging heresy is in substituting gospel hobbies for the atonement.

[LDSMusic483]

There are those who believe that God has not learned truths that have not come into existence yet.

And I would say to that...with all of the time that God has been around, and the amounts of worlds that He has created, and everything that He has accomplished, what truths are waiting around to be revealed to Him? Logically, it does not make any sense to think that after billions of years there is something that he has not learned. The scriptures plainly state that ALL things are present before Him. If his path is one eternal round, then He has no need to create new truths because He's done this all before. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that idea one bit, and I think it lessens the idea of Gods omniscience.

[Zeta-Flux]

And what truth has God not learned yet then? You all seem quick to judge his "heresies" as overstepping boudaries, but I'd say that what he says is pretty accurate within the scriptures.

The scriptures talk a lot about how God learns. Look up "how to succor his people."

[katherine the great]

I think the greatest heresy is to say that #2 is a heresy.