The Seven Deadly Heresies

[Lightbearer]

Knowledge, I am going to take it one step more.

God possibly cannot know "all things" and this is why-

All things (futurally speaking) have not yet been played out and never will be. If God did know all things he would know exactly how the rest of the future of the gods will play out. Speaking now in hindsight, if gos does know all things then God intentionally created Satan for the purpose of him becoming evil as part of his plan. He also would know before he created his children who would become evil and who wouldn't and thus- as part of his designs he would intentionally create some of his children to becoem angels to his created devil as part of his plan. The logic of this is that god himself must be evil if he can knowingly create and manipulate an evilness as part of his plan.

That is not good logic! He cannot possibly know who will fall and who won't while they are still in an infant spiritual state. He may know "all" things as they exist presently, and even be able to recall the past in perfect clarity, but he cannot do the same with the future, with that he can only work off of probables and this does not mean that the probables are anything exact.

So, god is all knowing as far as what we do and that we cannot hide from him, and that he can give us the best advice which will lead us into salvation, but he is not all knowing in the futurally speaking sense- no one possibly could be. That said, the potential for him to know every single possibility and know with perfect clarity the best way to handle the circumstance- it being limitless, he is far from "all knowing". He too like everyone else will continue to find a never-ending chain of events and circumstances that will take some work at figuring out and that itself will always be a learning experience bringing also with it a never-ending plane of increased intelligence.

So Rob are you saying that God does not know the future? If not then how can He give us revelation that foretells what must come to pass? It would also mean that God is not in possession of all truth, for according to the scripture:

(D&C 93:24-27) "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning. The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments."

Note also that Christ received all truth, would that not mean the knowledge of "all things"?

[sleepyhead]

Then maybe I will start to believe in reincarnation, too, as we seem to be so much in agreement on the other issue.

Truth be told, I think there is a great deal to reincarnation, and I believe it is practiced . . . only on different worlds rather than the same one.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

hello consiglien,

From examining the world we live in it appears (to me) that it's designed to teach us self discipline. Success or failure often hinges on whether we have the discipline to advance. It's only logical then, that their would be other worlds where other aspects of soul growth would be emphasized. Where loyalty, using loyalty as an example, would be central and success or failure hinged on it.

[Rob Osborn]

Ron, if God came and told you that you would get some crazy idea's regarding the kingdoms of glory and His knowledge before you were born, would you believe it? You'd probably be like...no no no...I would never do that! Even though God may know who is going to choose evil and who will not, that does not mean he is responsible for them choosing it. He allows them to choose how they would like to. And I wouldn't say "evilness" is part of his plan, but an opposition of all things sure is! Judas Iscariot was prophesied about years before he was born. God KNEW what he would do with his agency. That doesn't mean that Judas should be deprived the opportunity to become a spirit child, gain a body and try to work out his own salvation. God is responsible for giving us the opportunity to progress. His foreknowledge of what we will do with that agency does not constitute responsibility of such. Would God be just to only allow those who would act righteously the opportunity to live? If what you say is true, then there is no reason for prophecy, because God could never know what is going to happen. Christ couldn't have prophesied that Peter would deny him thrice! What would have happened if Peter had only done so twice? Christ would then have been a false prophet and everyone would have lost confidence in him! If you want to believe your idea of Gods perfect knowledge remove all prophecies from the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price because it would only be guess work as to what God THINKS might happen and false prophecies would abound.

Prophecy can and does happen because god manipulates the present to bring to pass the things that surely must be. An example of this is angels appearing unto men and telling them what to do so that prophecy does come to pass.

Angels prompt men or persuade them all the time to fulfill prophesy.

God absolutely did not know that Lucifer would be created for the purpose of evil before he created him!

Think of this there were two alternatives to the prophesey concerning the coming forth of the BoM. On one hand the gentiles would be blessed if they accepted the gospel (Joseph Smith and his followers in this country) but if they didn't accept, he would take the gospel to a different people. Now certainly both cannot be right and yet they both could possibly happen or only one of the two happen. It sounds to me like the future is not written and that only probables exist and that prophesey can be somewhat forgiving. This in no way means that God knows the exact future without his or his angels interfarence.

[consiglieri]

So Rob are you saying that God does not know the future? If not then how can He give us revelation that foretells what must come to pass?

Well, it might tend to explain how so many of his predictions didn't pan out.

[LDSMusic483]

Prophecy can and does happen because god manipulates the present to bring to pass the things that surely must be. An example of this is angels appearing unto men and telling them what to do so that prophecy does come to pass.

Angels prompt men or persuade them all the time to fulfill prophesy.

God absolutely did not know that Lucifer would be created for the purpose of evil before he created him!

Think of this there were two alternatives to the prophesey concerning the coming forth of the BoM. On one hand the gentiles would be blessed if they accepted the gospel (Joseph Smith and his followers in this country) but if they didn't accept, he would take the gospel to a different people. Now certainly both cannot be right and yet they both could possibly happen or only one of the two happen. It sounds to me like the future is not written and that only probables exist and that prophesey can be somewhat forgiving. This in no way means that God knows the exact future without his or his angels interfarence.

How could he not know? ONE ETERNAL ROUND. This is what God does. And even if an angel tells someone what they ought to do, that doesn't mean that they will always do it! Which angel told Judas to betray Jesus? I'd love to see the description of that event. Just because the Lord lets people know what possible blessing they would get if they are obedient, that does not mean He doesn't know that they will reject those blessings. Your argument is lacking. Yes, one of two things can happen and God can say that one of two things can happen. That in no way precludes that God doesn't KNOW which one will happen. And you find me a scripture that says prophecy can be forgiving and I'll find you the scripture that says that whatever God says will come to pass and that if someone prophecies something and it doesn't come to pass, they are a false prophet.

[Lightbearer]

I think it rather instructive that neither Rob or Consig has quoted even one scripture to substantiate their claims on God not being omniscient. Nor have they answered the scriptures I quote in favor of God knowing all things... brethern as they say "put up or shut up" (aka: CFR)

As for the OP this fits into the thread nicely because Elder McConkie often said that if he or any other man in this Church were to teach something that contradicts what is in the standard works or taught by the current President of the Church then we can ignore it and forget it.

[Log]

I think it rather instructive that neither Rob or Consig has quoted even one scripture to substantiate their claims on God not being omniscient. Nor have they answered the scriptures I quote in favor of God knowing all things... brethern as they say "put up or shut up" (aka: CFR)

As for the OP this fits into the thread nicely because Elder McConkie often said that if he or any other man in this Church were to teach something that contradicts what is in the standard works or taught by the current President of the Church then we can ignore it and forget it.

Your CFR is answered: http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=226

Search for "Biblical Support for the Open View of God".

I take no public position on any of this stuff.

[Zeta-Flux]

Your CFR is answered: http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=226

Search for "Biblical Support for the Open View of God".

I take no public position on any of this stuff.

Log,

I don't want to fault find, but this post puzzles me. I thought you believed it was speaking evil of the Lord's anointed to present material that might reflect poorly on what they preach. Can you help me see why this doesn't run afoul of your beliefs in this matter?

Thanks,

Zeta-Flux

[LDSMusic483]

Your CFR is answered: http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=226

Search for "Biblical Support for the Open View of God".

I take no public position on any of this stuff.

So the question is, should we believe the scriptures where you have to stretch an interpretation to believe that God doesn't know everything, or believe the verses that plainly state...He does know everything. Not a tough choice. It's as though people who believe the former believe that they are uncovering things that weren't understood or haven't been believed. BRM had probably the greatest mastery of the scriptures that has been seen, and he didn't believe it one bit. Why? Because the scriptures plainly state that there is NOTHING that God doesn't know. Now you can try to interpret the scriptures to say what you want them to say, or what you think they should say, but in doing so, the plainness of the scriptures are taken away. God doesn't need to change His mind. In insinuating that He does would insinuate that He is turning from a bad choice to a good choice. I'm sorry, but the God I believe in doesn't have a problem with making up His mind about which choice is right, nor does He need Moses or anyone else to tell Him to do what is right. Just because God told Abraham to kill Isaac, does not mean He intended to have Isaac dead, but then changed His mind. This can be applied to any other situation in the scriptures. I'm going to say one thing and let Moses reason out why there is a better choice of action. It's part of their individual growth. Blake Ostlers and Rob Osborns commentary is in no way persuasive to me and to me it seeks to undermind Gods perfection.

[Log]

You don't have to believe it. But you should concede that reasonable minds might view the available evidence and arrive at a contrary conclusion to yours. Frankly, since the scriptures do, in fact, say what Ostler is citing them to say - that is the Bible he's citing, after all - it might be wise to simply study further.

Log,I don't want to fault find, but this post puzzles me. I thought you believed it was speaking evil of the Lord's anointed to present material that might reflect poorly on what they preach. Can you help me see why this doesn't run afoul of your beliefs in this matter?Thanks,Zeta-Flux

I'm simply responding to a call for (scriptural) references. Nothing further need be inferred nor implied. I am not criticizing, to say the least, and that is specifically what I avoid in these discussions.

Context, Daniel-san. Context!

[LDSMusic483]

You don't have to believe it. But you should concede that reasonable minds might view the available evidence and arrive at a contrary conclusion to yours. Frankly, since the scriptures do, in fact, say what Ostler is citing them to say - that is the Bible he's citing, after all - it might be wise to simply study further.

No, the scriptures that Ostler quotes do not say "God only knows the infinite possibilities but has no way of knowing what mortal agency will choose." The scriptures do say that God knows all, that He knows the beginning from the end and that there is nothing save God knows it.

Gods choosing of using words such as "or else" or "changed his mind" don't need to be read as that He doesn't know the end from the beginning. God knows the final outcome, but along with that He knows the infinite possibilities so He could tell them exactly what would happen if they chose one way. Regardless, He still knows the way that they will choose and the scriptures substantiate that omniscience.

[Rob Osborn]

... Blake Ostlers and Rob Osborns commentary is in no way persuasive to me and to me it seeks to undermind Gods perfection.

I am sorry if you feel that way. I in no way am seeking to undermine gods perfection, I am just trying to be logical about the whole process. I feel I have layed out a good scenerio. I would like to further delve into it because I believe we are missing something- something big about the nature of godliness.

Lets take old Lucifer again. Supposing that god knows everything (futurally speaking), What are Gods plans with creating Lucifer? He would have in his hands, before creating Lucifer, the plans for establishing a system whereby some of the children he creates, he creates solely for the purpose of rebelling against him. So, that said, he literally would then glorify in bringing to pass the misery and eternal death of an exact percentage of the children he so designed for that destiny which cannot be altered. This would mean that as part of gods perfect plans, he must raise up a righteous group of individuals creating a system whereby those individuals would fall and become forever lost- they would have a divine purpose- a destiny. A destiny with misery, and all this so that god can glorify in bringing to pass his perfect plans.

The above situation is exactly what would be the case if god knew every exact detail about the future- even before he caused the future to happen. In order for god to perfectly know the future- as in Lucifers case, he would have to know also that no choice made by Lucifer would or could derail the future events of his divine destiny to become evil. So then, where is god in all of his upbringing? He would obviously have to be a physical part of his creation and upbringing as a spirit child to some degree. He would thus have to help the spirit child make certain exact choices that would later sway him over to the dark side. God just can't sit on the sidelines without any interfarence at all! Poor old Lucifer- he doesn't even know what is happening until it is too late and wham!!, he fulfills gods eternal plans exactly! We must remember that in order for god to know all of this that he has to act himself to make it all happen. And it has to start as a plan made by him and then carried out to exact precision. What we are talking about is a god who is really just a puppeteer bringing about his plans exactly the way he wants them to work out.

And that is why it is a false deal- god would knowingly create evil and manipulate it in such a way that his eternal plans are carried out- and thus we could definately say- god would be evil!

Let me explain the alternate now. God is all knowing (futurally speaking) in the sense that he can follow a plan that he lays out and not be thwarted no matter what surprises spring up (Lucifer falling and becoming Satan for one). Did I say "surprises? Can god be surprised? Of coarse. This does not mean that gods plans can be shaken or derailed in any way, it just means that god is all knowing in how to overcome challenges whatever they "may be", because he does not know specifically what will be.

Lets take a different angle at this- When we invaded Iraq, we had a plan on what would happen and what we wanted to achieve. The army generals being well rehearsed in this type of ordeal were all knowing in the sense that they could write up detailed battle plans with timeframes and deadlines and then put forth those plans. In a sense they wrote down their plans as a sorts of prophecy one could say. All the backup systems were in place for just about any kind of surprise that might happen, and this because the plans must be carried out to fulfill their prophecy/plans. When the war actually started and they rolled into Iraq there were very many obvious surprises in the sense of not knowing exactly what would happen (Trucks getting flat tires and breaking down) even though they were in reality preplanned for and what to do if this or that happens so that the plans still get carried out.

God works the same way. He has plans and the backup system to carry out those plans regardless of what unknowns /surprises pop up. Take JS for example. Suppose he didn't go into the woods that day to pray. Suppose that he didn't have the desire to pray at that point in his life. Do you think that would thwart gods plans? What exactly does god have at his beckon call? He has legions upon endless legions of angels who are trained and have abilities to make things happen or persuade them to happen. Do you not suppose that it would be hard for god to appear to JS in a dream anyway had he not prayed? Do you think that there wouldn't be an almost unlimited amount of actions god could do to make JS have the belief required to fulfill prophecy? The point I am making is that god has a very orderly system of bringing to pass his ideals and ways. But these ideals and ways require him to constantly help and interfare so to speak in order for them to happen. JS could have never fulfilled the prophecy had not angels interfared and helped him to know of gods plans regarding that prophecy. Left all alone without gods interfarence, JS would have been a helpless cause in bringing about gods plans all on his own.

God works off a system of faith. He raises up individuals giving them the best opportunity for success and then lets them loose on faith to carry out his plans. Our god is a god of divine intervention and interfarence in order that his plans are not thwarted! Satan is always trying to thwart gods plans and god is busy at work creating (interfaring) actions that counteract the plans of satan in order that his words come to pass- for they must surely come to pass to bring about all righteousness.

I like to believe that god like to play chess (good games in general) in the gameroom in heaven all because of the fact that he likes to make plans and carry them out all the while not knowing exactly what might happen (why else play the game?). There has to be unknowns, or life- even for god, would be dull, boring and altogether pointless!

[Brade]

How about this. Let's just say that God does know the exact state of the universe at any given time in the past, present, and future (I don't believe this but I'm just granting it for the sake of argument). Let's also say that 6000 years ago there were 2 people on the earth. 6000 years later there were roughly 6,000,000,000 people on the earth.

Now, let me move to a different story just to establish something. Suppose a color blind scientist knows every fact there is to know about red roses. How the light causes "redness" in the human eye and so on. One day the color blindness of the scientist goes away and for the first time in her life she actually experiences redness. Before she knew all the facts about it and we would say she knew what it was for something to be red. Now she knows what it's like for something to be red.

Now back to God. 6000 ago God knew there were 2 people on the earth and, according to the omniscience being asserted in this thread, he would also know the exact number of His children on the earth 6000 years later. It's clear to me that 6000 years ago God knew the exact number of people on the earth and knew what it was like to experience having that many people on the earth. It's not so clear to me that 6000 years ago if God knew the exact number that were going to be on the earth He also knew exactly what it was like to experience the fact of that many people on the earth.

Or think about our spiritual creation as His spirit children before this life. At some past time when God only had 1,000 spirit children did He know by experience what it was like to have 10,000,000,000 spirit children?

I'm not sure how a being can know all the necessary bits of an experience without having gone through the experience. If you think that sounds strange or can't figure out a way to make it the case that God knows that sort of thing then you might want to consider the idea that omniscience, as Ostler defines it, is just knowing all that can be known and there are some things that simply cannot be known, like that nobody, not even God, can know things by experience without having gone through the experience.

Or, look at Christ. Prior to his birth on the earth he didn't have a body. Did he already know exactly what it was like to have a body? If he didn't, and I don't see how he could have, then he, as God, didn't know something.

Or how about the scripture in Alma 7 wherein we find that Christ "took upon him death...that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their informities." Why did he do something "that he may know" if, on the view of omniscience, he should have already known all that?

[LDSMusic483]

I am sorry if you feel that way. I in no way am seeking to undermine gods perfection, I am just trying to be logical about the whole process. I feel I have layed out a good scenerio. I would like to further delve into it because I believe we are missing something- something big about the nature of godliness.

Lets take old Lucifer again. Supposing that god knows everything (futurally speaking), What are Gods plans with creating Lucifer? He would have in his hands, before creating Lucifer, the plans for establishing a system whereby some of the children he creates, he creates solely for the purpose of rebelling against him. So, that said, he literally would then glorify in bringing to pass the misery and eternal death of an exact percentage of the children he so designed for that destiny which cannot be altered. This would mean that as part of gods perfect plans, he must raise up a righteous group of individuals creating a system whereby those individuals would fall and become forever lost- they would have a divine purpose- a destiny. A destiny with misery, and all this so that god can glorify in bringing to pass his perfect plans.

The above situation is exactly what would be the case if god knew every exact detail about the future- even before he caused the future to happen. In order for god to perfectly know the future- as in Lucifers case, he would have to know also that no choice made by Lucifer would or could derail the future events of his divine destiny to become evil. So then, where is god in all of his upbringing? He would obviously have to be a physical part of his creation and upbringing as a spirit child to some degree. He would thus have to help the spirit child make certain exact choices that would later sway him over to the dark side. God just can't sit on the sidelines without any interfarence at all! Poor old Lucifer- he doesn't even know what is happening until it is too late and wham!!, he fulfills gods eternal plans exactly! We must remember that in order for god to know all of this that he has to act himself to make it all happen. And it has to start as a plan made by him and then carried out to exact precision. What we are talking about is a god who is really just a puppeteer bringing about his plans exactly the way he wants them to work out.

And that is why it is a false deal- god would knowingly create evil and manipulate it in such a way that his eternal plans are carried out- and thus we could definately say- god would be evil!

Let me explain the alternate now. God is all knowing (futurally speaking) in the sense that he can follow a plan that he lays out and not be thwarted no matter what surprises spring up (Lucifer falling and becoming Satan for one). Did I say "surprises? Can god be surprised? Of coarse. This does not mean that gods plans can be shaken or derailed in any way, it just means that god is all knowing in how to overcome challenges whatever they "may be", because he does not know specifically what will be.

Lets take a different angle at this- When we invaded Iraq, we had a plan on what would happen and what we wanted to achieve. The army generals being well rehearsed in this type of ordeal were all knowing in the sense that they could write up detailed battle plans with timeframes and deadlines and then put forth those plans. In a sense they wrote down their plans as a sorts of prophecy one could say. All the backup systems were in place for just about any kind of surprise that might happen, and this because the plans must be carried out to fulfill their prophecy/plans. When the war actually started and they rolled into Iraq there were very many obvious surprises in the sense of not knowing exactly what would happen (Trucks getting flat tires and breaking down) even though they were in reality preplanned for and what to do if this or that happens so that the plans still get carried out.

God works the same way. He has plans and the backup system to carry out those plans regardless of what unknowns /surprises pop up. Take JS for example. Suppose he didn't go into the woods that day to pray. Suppose that he didn't have the desire to pray at that point in his life. Do you think that would thwart gods plans? What exactly does god have at his beckon call? He has legions upon endless legions of angels who are trained and have abilities to make things happen or persuade them to happen. Do you not suppose that it would be hard for god to appear to JS in a dream anyway had he not prayed? Do you think that there wouldn't be an almost unlimited amount of actions god could do to make JS have the belief required to fulfill prophecy? The point I am making is that god has a very orderly system of bringing to pass his ideals and ways. But these ideals and ways require him to constantly help and interfare so to speak in order for them to happen. JS could have never fulfilled the prophecy had not angels interfared and helped him to know of gods plans regarding that prophecy. Left all alone without gods interfarence, JS would have been a helpless cause in bringing about gods plans all on his own.

God works off a system of faith. He raises up individuals giving them the best opportunity for success and then lets them loose on faith to carry out his plans. Our god is a god of divine intervention and interfarence in order that his plans are not thwarted! Satan is always trying to thwart gods plans and god is busy at work creating (interfaring) actions that counteract the plans of satan in order that his words come to pass- for they must surely come to pass to bring about all righteousness.

I like to believe that god like to play chess (good games in general) in the gameroom in heaven all because of the fact that he likes to make plans and carry them out all the while not knowing exactly what might happen (why else play the game?). There has to be unknowns, or life- even for god, would be dull, boring and altogether pointless!

Rob,

A few questions that I would have with your scenario are...

1) Has there ever been a Lucifer before?

2) Why could God not knowingly create individuals, knowing that they would not return to Him? This would seem the case for Judas Iscariot.

3) If God does not know what agency will bring, do you argue He didn't know for sure that the fall would happen, which would thwart the plan of salvation?

4) Why is there never one scripture that says directly what you believe, yet quite a good number that say what I believe?

Now I know that you "Gods knowledge is limited" theorists like to talk about how JS didn't in fact write all of what is in the Lectures of Faith. This is true. But he did review them and allow them for publication. To me, that constitutes his accepting them.

[Brade]

I'd like to offer my thoughts if you don't mind.

1) Has there ever been a Lucifer before?

I'm not sure. Also, I'm not sure why that matters here?

2) Why could God not knowingly create individuals, knowing that they would not return to Him? This would seem the case for Judas Iscariot.

Because if God knows the final state of any individual with 100% certainty then there is a mechanism by which God knows that bit of information. If there's a mechanism by which God, or any other sufficiently intelligent being, can know such information about future states of the universe with respect to supposedly free beings then, whether God or any other sufficiently intelligent being knows such information, all events in the universe are determined by the mechanism. If all events in the universe are determined then free will is an illusion, at best.

3) If God does not know what agency will bring, do you argue He didn't know for sure that the fall would happen, which would thwart the plan of salvation?

If by not knowing "for sure" you me He didn't know with 100% certainty, then yes I do believe he didn't know for sure that the fall would happen. I'd say He did have as good an idea that it would happen as anyone could have.

4) Why is there never one scripture that says directly what you believe, yet quite a good number that say what I believe?

For one, I think many people, including myself, would just say that all of those scriptures are ambiguous. Meaning they can have more than one meaning. Even more, they can have more than one meaning and remain consistent with other teachings about the nature of God and rendering the ambiguity one way as opposed to another tends to solve puzzles about the nature of human free will.

At the very least every LDS should have some skepticism about strong language like "all", "infinite", and "eternal". In DC 19 the Lord says "it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." If that's not troubling I don't know what is. After all, what is endless, other than to have no end? The Lord goes on to explain the "mystery." He says, "I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name--Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment." That's pretty groundbreaking. Who would have thought? As it turns out endless punishment has an end and the word "endless" isn't a description of the duration of the punishment but just happens to be another name for God. What's even more telling is that the Lord explicitly states that He's worded things this way "that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men"!

Now, that doesn't stand to prove that when God speaks of His own knowledge as being infinite or all-encompassing He's just using a manner of speaking. However, it does give us some doubt that what God is saying accurately describes the condition of His being or the state of the universe.

[Zeta-Flux]

You don't have to believe it. But you should concede that reasonable minds might view the available evidence and arrive at a contrary conclusion to yours. Frankly, since the scriptures do, in fact, say what Ostler is citing them to say - that is the Bible he's citing, after all - it might be wise to simply study further.

I'm simply responding to a call for (scriptural) references. Nothing further need be inferred nor implied. I am not criticizing, to say the least, and that is specifically what I avoid in these discussions.

Context, Daniel-san. Context!

I guess I believe that (if done correctly) citing higher authorities to criticize certain doctrines can be done without criticizing people who preach said doctrines. Thanks for your willingness to discuss this, and the PM.

With regards to Ostler's interpretations, I ask the question: Do his interpretations of scripture square with the interpretations given by modern prophets? The answer, in my experience, is no. Modern prophets, nearly universally, interpret them to mean that God knows the future (from Joseph Smith to the present day).

[consiglieri]

Because if God knows the final state of any individual with 100% certainty then there is a mechanism by which God knows that bit of information. If there's a mechanism by which God, or any other sufficiently intelligent being, can know such information about future states of the universe with respect to supposedly free beings then, whether God or any other sufficiently intelligent being knows such information, all events in the universe are determined by the mechanism. If all events in the universe are determined then free will is an illusion, at best.

You have no idea how refreshing it is to watch Log arguing with LDSMusic about this issue, rather than the both of them arguing with me about the Adam-God Theory!

Some excellent points have been raised with regard to this heresy of God being all-knowing.

Here, ba81, you suggest that if God know what we will do, and where we will end up eternally, the mechanism makes free will an illusion.

Although I agree that God does NOT know everything, I think it is possible to conceive of how God could know the end from the beginning without it compromising free will.

Here is how I look at it:

In the morning, we get out of bed with a new day ahead of us. We are free to choose to do anything that we want during that day; our agency is not hampered in the least; we can choose to do good or to do evil, and pretty much any amount of either to the extent of our ability and imagination.

At the end of the same day, when we are going to bed, everything we did that day is a memory; we can look back on it and see exactly what it was we did; whether we did good or evil, and how much.

At the end of the day, our choices have been set in stone; our choices have now been memorialized in accomplished deeds.

BUT just because we cannot change what we did after it is done does not mean that we did not have freedom to choose in the moment of action.

I think it is possible to conceive of God as going to the end of the "day" while we are still getting up in the morning.

In other words, God can look back and see all the choices we have made before we make them.

In this sense, God's knowledge of what we will do does not undermine our freedom to choose.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDSMusic483]

I'm not sure. Also, I'm not sure why that matters here?

It matters because if this were the case, God would surely know that there would be an intelligence who would try to usurp Gods power. It means that regardless of God not wanting it to happen, we had/have our agency and will choose our own path. God just knows that path beforehand, but it is for us to live the path so that we can't try to say we didn't have a chance. That would be injustice if God only chose those who would do good.

Because if God knows the final state of any individual with 100% certainty then there is a mechanism by which God knows that bit of information. If there's a mechanism by which God, or any other sufficiently intelligent being, can know such information about future states of the universe with respect to supposedly free beings then, whether God or any other sufficiently intelligent being knows such information, all events in the universe are determined by the mechanism. If all events in the universe are determined then free will is an illusion, at best.

I'll use your own argument against you. God revealed a mystery that was another understanding of "endless." To me, I see no problem knowing that God knows all of the actions His children will make without that being compulsory for them to make it. We'll use Peter for example. Jesus said (and He knew) that Peter would deny Christ three times before the **** crowed. That is extremely specific. Not only that, Peter didn't believe it one bit, quite the opposite. So he was even placed on his guard. In spite of all this...Peter still denied Christ three times before the **** crowed. Now...if God only knew the possibilities, He might have said, you will deny me. But how could He possibly know the amount of times and the timing it would happen, and go out on a limb and prophesy it if He wasn't absolutely positive it would happen?

If by not knowing "for sure" you me He didn't know with 100% certainty, then yes I do believe he didn't know for sure that the fall would happen. I'd say He did have as good an idea that it would happen as anyone could have.

For one, I think many people, including myself, would just say that all of those scriptures are ambiguous. Meaning they can have more than one meaning. Even more, they can have more than one meaning and remain consistent with other teachings about the nature of God and rendering the ambiguity one way as opposed to another tends to solve puzzles about the nature of human free will.

If God didn't know concerning the fall, then the entire plan of Salvation would have been for not. Christ would have never been "slain from the foundation of the world" and we wouldn't have been able to use His blood to overcome Lucifer in the pre-existence.

A prime example of what God knows and is able to show us is found in the experience of the Brother of Jared.

25 And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would believe in him that he could show unto him all thingsâ??it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.

God showed him ALL things. You would have us believe that this is not possible. He showed him ALL the inhabitants of the earth until the end of the earth.

[LDSMusic483]

You have no idea how refreshing it is to watch Log arguing with LDSMusic about this issue, rather than the both of them arguing with me about the Adam-God Theory!

Well you know...we figured we'd give you a day or two off without arguing about your heresies!

[consiglieri]

Well you know...we figured we'd give you a day or two off without arguing about your heresies! ;-)

The thing that startled me was how TBM Log seemed until we probed sufficiently to discover his seamy underbelly.

[LDSMusic483]

The thing that startled me was how TBM Log seemed until we probed sufficiently to discover his seamy underbelly.

Well, if I remember...he took issue with me dismissing Ostlers arguments. He said he "publicly" didn't have an opinion.

[Lightbearer]

I am sorry if you feel that way. I in no way am seeking to undermine gods perfection, I am just trying to be logical about the whole process. I feel I have layed out a good scenerio. I would like to further delve into it because I believe we are missing something- something big about the nature of godliness.

Lets take old Lucifer again. Supposing that god knows everything (futurally speaking), What are Gods plans with creating Lucifer? He would have in his hands, before creating Lucifer, the plans for establishing a system whereby some of the children he creates, he creates solely for the purpose of rebelling against him. So, that said, he literally would then glorify in bringing to pass the misery and eternal death of an exact percentage of the children he so designed for that destiny which cannot be altered. This would mean that as part of gods perfect plans, he must raise up a righteous group of individuals creating a system whereby those individuals would fall and become forever lost- they would have a divine purpose- a destiny. A destiny with misery, and all this so that god can glorify in bringing to pass his perfect plans.

The above situation is exactly what would be the case if god knew every exact detail about the future- even before he caused the future to happen. In order for god to perfectly know the future- as in Lucifers case, he would have to know also that no choice made by Lucifer would or could derail the future events of his divine destiny to become evil. So then, where is god in all of his upbringing? He would obviously have to be a physical part of his creation and upbringing as a spirit child to some degree. He would thus have to help the spirit child make certain exact choices that would later sway him over to the dark side. God just can't sit on the sidelines without any interfarence at all! Poor old Lucifer- he doesn't even know what is happening until it is too late and wham!!, he fulfills gods eternal plans exactly! We must remember that in order for god to know all of this that he has to act himself to make it all happen. And it has to start as a plan made by him and then carried out to exact precision. What we are talking about is a god who is really just a puppeteer bringing about his plans exactly the way he wants them to work out.

And that is why it is a false deal- god would knowingly create evil and manipulate it in such a way that his eternal plans are carried out- and thus we could definately say- god would be evil!

There is just one flaw in your God creating evil Lucifer scenario, God did not "create" Lucifer to fall. We are all (Lucifer included) God's spirit children. Above all else God has endowed us with the sacred gift of agency. We can choose, Lucifer choose to fall, he was not compelled any more than we are compelled to sin. We are all eternal beings with different levels of capacity to increase and progress. However God (having moved through the process of testing that consists of mortal life) has passed through the stage of His existence unto the point where He is a God, an eternal being with an infinite ability to comprehend and to have glory added upon Himself forever and ever. We have the potential for this same glory and exaltation. The very definition of God is to be all powerful and all knowing, the philosophers and others without inspiration have tried to define what that means or to "set up stakes" to limit His ability. The only problem is that in our mortal state we cannot see all things or even comprehend them, only insofar as God has revealed it to us through revelation. The following scripture defines a seer:

(Mosiah 8:13-17) "Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God. And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet. And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God. But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known."

Do you see what this is saying? Why would it cause someone to "perish" to "look for that he ought not"? Do you think that perhaps agency has something to do with it? Also note that it says that a (mortal) man cannot possess the power of God. To me this means that some things cannot be understood while in this mortal state. In fact in other scriptures it says that God cannot reveal all His glory to a man and that man remain in the flesh. So the idea that we think as God does is ridiculous unless we are given those thoughts from God. You assume that God must play by mortal laws which is not the case, He lives under a higher set of laws. You yourself remind us that we are in a telestial sphere of existence and must abide by at least a telestial law to exist here. Now God who is a Celestial being is not bound by the same laws but lives a much higher law. He is infinite in capacity because He kept His first and second estates so glory can be added upon Him forever and ever.

Let me explain the alternate now. God is all knowing (futurally speaking) in the sense that he can follow a plan that he lays out and not be thwarted no matter what surprises spring up (Lucifer falling and becoming Satan for one). Did I say "surprises? Can god be surprised? Of coarse. This does not mean that gods plans can be shaken or derailed in any way, it just means that god is all knowing in how to overcome challenges whatever they "may be", because he does not know specifically what will be.

Lets take a different angle at this- When we invaded Iraq, we had a plan on what would happen and what we wanted to achieve. The army generals being well rehearsed in this type of ordeal were all knowing in the sense that they could write up detailed battle plans with timeframes and deadlines and then put forth those plans. In a sense they wrote down their plans as a sorts of prophecy one could say. All the backup systems were in place for just about any kind of surprise that might happen, and this because the plans must be carried out to fulfill their prophecy/plans. When the war actually started and they rolled into Iraq there were very many obvious surprises in the sense of not knowing exactly what would happen (Trucks getting flat tires and breaking down) even though they were in reality preplanned for and what to do if this or that happens so that the plans still get carried out.

God works the same way. He has plans and the backup system to carry out those plans regardless of what unknowns /surprises pop up. Take JS for example. Suppose he didn't go into the woods that day to pray. Suppose that he didn't have the desire to pray at that point in his life. Do you think that would thwart gods plans? What exactly does god have at his beckon call? He has legions upon endless legions of angels who are trained and have abilities to make things happen or persuade them to happen. Do you not suppose that it would be hard for god to appear to JS in a dream anyway had he not prayed? Do you think that there wouldn't be an almost unlimited amount of actions god could do to make JS have the belief required to fulfill prophecy? The point I am making is that god has a very orderly system of bringing to pass his ideals and ways. But these ideals and ways require him to constantly help and interfare so to speak in order for them to happen. JS could have never fulfilled the prophecy had not angels interfared and helped him to know of gods plans regarding that prophecy. Left all alone without gods interfarence, JS would have been a helpless cause in bringing about gods plans all on his own.

This is a faulty example for the simple reason those mortal Generals and Military leaders while brilliant strategists and soldiers are not "seers" and are not yet "Gods" so their view is limited. God's view is unlimited, and He knew Joseph would pray in that grove of trees in the spring of 1820. Joseph was foreordained to do so. It is true Joseph still had his agency, but that agency was used as he was guided by the spirit and light of Christ just as we all are. The agency comes in when we heed out of our own free will the promptings of the spirit. God is not surprised by anything, He was not surprised when Martin Harris convinced Joseph to go against His own counsel and as a result lost the 116 pages. But He provided a way (accounting for agency) by telling Nephi hundreds of years earlier to prepare two sets of plates. (Although He did not make it known why or who or what would happen) But He did make it possible for His will to come forth, the plans of God are not frustrated but the plans of men.

I like to believe that god like to play chess (good games in general) in the gameroom in heaven all because of the fact that he likes to make plans and carry them out all the while not knowing exactly what might happen (why else play the game?). There has to be unknowns, or life- even for god, would be dull, boring and altogether pointless!

You are looking at the concept with "mortal" or finite eyes. God is not a "divine chess player" because quite simply He cannot "loose" and we are here to develop our faith and improve until we attain the station of God. His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of His children. We are not pawns in sort of cosmic game, we are His children and so within our sphere of understanding God must know all things. One final scripture to think about:

(D&C 130:6-11) "The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christâ??s. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

This is very instructive to me and shows that when we are exalted (as God is) then we will know all things, something that we cannot fully comprehend now.

[Rob Osborn]

Who writes the future? Is it god? is it us? is it the actions of men that right it? Or is it some unalterable coarse fixed and written since the infinite beginning of time?

I see the future as a series of roads, they are pathways that potentially exist according to the actions and desires of both men and god. This means that the future has not yet been written except for the probabilities that potentially exist at any given time. To think of it in our mortal senses, imagine it being like a very complex computer gaming engine. Imagine every single bit of knowledge that exists in the world- every fact as it happens is poured into this complex engine. The thoughts and intentions of men and animals are also poured into this machine. Now, think how easy it would be to see the varying roads of the future being written by the computer engine. What it couldn't do however is make the finite decisions such as a person going to the store and deciding on whether to buy frozen orange juice or already made orange juice, especially if the character chooses a random thought process to decide (like eeny meeny miney mo) what to take to the counter. Now suppose that the person was supposed to pick the frozen because while in that isle that person would run into an old friend which would potentially lead that person to coming back to church. So, the angels start to do their part and prompt the person on how fun it may be to make frozen orange juice or that they really need it or who knows. The angels and god are looking at the different roads that potentially exist and helping us make choices that have the best possible outcomes.

As we and god make choices, the future roads become and set of paths become reality based entirely off of choice. Because choice/free will exists, so also must there exist multiple outcomes for the future. God can still allow for choice and bring to pass his propheceys because he too can make choices and intervene in our lives to make those things happen. A lot of times, the trivial decisions we make do not change or alter the main coarse of the predicted future- the path remains the same as far as a certain prophecy or goal is concerned. For example- irregardless of whether our above candidate chose frozen orange juice or juice already made, they will still proceed through the day relatively unchanged as far as other events happening that day because of that event.

One of the interesting things about patriarchal blessings is that they often give people different outcomes whether they choose to obey or to disobey. This is exactly what I am getting at. Their coarse has not been fixed for them, but remains to be fixed entirely up to their free will. Either A or B can happen based off their decisions in life. This means that god may know the possible outcomes for both A and B, but that he does not know specifically which one you will choose. That is why he gives the different predictions.

The point I am making here is that yes, there are certain things according to prophecy that are written and will happen because of the divine intervetion of god and his angels irregardless of what we are choosing to do. But there are many things not written but just remain as mulitiple paths according to our free will. Whether I decide to eat a hamburger or a hot dog tonight is pretty much up to me- hasn't been written and fixed yet even though both of those predictions exist and have been calculated in the future.

Think also of it this way- suppose we are supposed to do something fulfilling prophecy- the things already written. There may be 100 different ways to make decisions leading up to the event and still have that prophecy happen. God must allow for free will that is not fixed. If free will exists, so must alternative futures.

One more thing- if god already knows the future, why does he give me blessings and tell me that different destinations exist depending solely upon my decisions? Why not have him just tell me exactly how the future is?

[Brade]

I don't have time right now for a lengthy response. I'll offer one later and I'll address your posts fully LDSmusic483 and consiglieri. One brief question before I return. Does God know what it is like to be Satan? If He does know what it is like than He must know by virtue of having evil thoughts and intentions. If God doesn't know what it's like to be Satan then God doesn't know something.

[Log]

I don't have time right now for a lengthy response. I'll offer one later and I'll address your posts fully LDSmusic483 and consiglieri. One brief question before I return. Does God know what it is like to be Satan? If He does know what it is like than He must know by virtue of having evil thoughts and intentions.

Yes, he does know, but your inference is false. Jesus Christ knows exactly how Satan feels, as it was inflicted upon him as part of the Atonement - the Spirit of God was withdrawn entirely from him.