Eternal Marriage

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Could you please provide an offical LDS teaching that support your words .... thanks.

Thats the point I dont believe there is any offical church teaching that says through out the ages people were married in LDS temples. I dont seem to remember a church teaching that stated Adam and Eve needed to be married in a LDS temple.

Thanks for useing LDS in your post.

[BCSpace]

What about Lillith?

Plural marriage of course.

[Calm]

Thats the point I dont believe there is any offical church teaching that says through out the ages people were married in LDS temples.

Endowment house.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I remember the words of a sappy song..."If love doesn't last forever then what's forever for..."

Pa Pa

[Lightbearer]

Does a Celestial Marriage have to be preformed in an LDS Temple? Not necessarily, there are exceptions to the rule:

(The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,, Pg.539) "Ordinance work outside temples is exceptional. As a tentative and emergency situation, and by authority of the prophet of the Lord, we could be baptized [for the dead] in the Mississippi or in the ocean, or other places. We could be married for eternity in a faraway home or mountain top, properly approved and designed and set apart, but only in an emergency. The temple is necessary for these holy purposes." (75-16)

The definition of the word Temple has been explained by:

(James E. Talmage, The House of the Lord, Pg.1) "Both by derivation and common usage the term "temple," in its literal application, is of restricted and specific meaning. The essential idea of a temple is and ever has been that of a place specially set apart for service regarded as sacred, and of real or assumed sanctity; in a more restricted sense, a temple is a building constructed for and exclusively devoted to sacred rites and ceremonies. The Latin Templum was the equivalent of the Hebrew Beth Elohim, and signified the abode of Deity; hence, as associated with Divine worship, it meant literally the HOUSE OF THE LORD.

So loosley defined the Garden of Eden could be equivalent to a Temple. In times of poverty the Lord's people could do these ordinances on a mountain top or in a tent or anywhere dedicated for that purpose. As for God performing the ordinance, when those who have His authority to "bind on earth and in heaven" do it, it is the same as He doing it himself. Of course the sealing must also be "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" for it to be valid so in essence God is performing the sealing. This is explained fully in D&C section 132:

(D&C 132:7-19) 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment--that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."

Hope this helps.

[T-Shirt]

Are there any other non-LDS Christians who would like to enter this discussion?

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

There is no built in divorce decree, after death a man and a wife can still maintain their man and wife relationship.

So, let me get this straight, after death, a man and wife can continue their "man and wife relationship" but they are not married"? Did I get that right?

How does one become a husband or a wife without ever getting married? Are there examples you can point me to, other than Adam and Eve, of couples who are husband and wife, but are not married?

Were Adam and Eve the only couple that God joined or are there others who have been joined by God? And, how did they become joined? Matthew 19 sure seems to indicate that the way a man becomes joined to his wife is through marriage, can you elaborate on this?

Are there any others who agree with Johnny?

T-Shirt

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

So, let me get this straight, after death, a man and wife can continue their "man and wife relationship" but they are not married"? Did I get that right?

Marriage is a reality of this present age. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties, especially to help them raise their children. In the next age, the age of the new heaven and new earth, this particular grace is no longer needed.

Did I get that right?

You get it right if you believe the words of Jesus, he said "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

How does one become a husband or a wife without ever getting married?

One can become a husband or a wife through consent, consent consist of a human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other.

Are there examples you can point me to, other than Adam and Eve, of couples who are husband and wife, but are not married?

Adam and Eve is the only example in the Bible that I am aware of where a couple is identified as man and wife without the human instituion of marriage.

Were Adam and Eve the only couple that God joined or are there others who have been joined by God?

Many couples are joined by God. Every legitimate marriage is joined by God. The presence of the Church's minister (and also of the witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that marriage is an ecclesial reality.

The priest who assists at the celebration of a marriage receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the blessing of the Church. In a sacramental marriage the Holy Spirit is the seal of their covenant.

The marriage is established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.

And, how did they become joined?

The consent by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other binds the two, the two "becoming one flesh".

Matthew 19 sure seems to indicate that the way a man becomes joined to his wife is through marriage, can you elaborate on this?

Matthew 19 is speaking of this age, In Mark 12:26 Jesus is speaking of the next age, Jesus says "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

By the "next age" I mean the age of the new heaven and the new earth which comes after the Second Coming of Christ.

Are there any others who agree with Johnny?

The early Christians would agree with me that a legitimate marriage lasted to death (see below).

Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies 2:23:145:3 [A.D. 208]).

And it regards as adultery the marriage of a spouse, while the one from whom a separation was made is still alive.

Origen (Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248]).

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seem to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her".

[T-Shirt]

T-Shirt,

Marriage is a reality of this present age. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties, especially to help them raise their children. In the next age, the age of the new heaven and new earth, this particular grace is no longer needed.

You get it right if you believe the words of Jesus, he said "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

One can become a husband or a wife through consent, consent consist of a human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other.

Adam and Eve is the only example in the Bible that I am aware of where a couple is identified as man and wife without the human instituion of marriage.

Many couples are joined by God. Every legitimate marriage is joined by God. The presence of the Church's minister (and also of the witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that marriage is an ecclesial reality.

The priest who assists at the celebration of a marriage receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the blessing of the Church. In a sacramental marriage the Holy Spirit is the seal of their covenant.

The marriage is established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.

The consent by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other binds the two, the two "becoming one flesh".

Matthew 19 is speaking of this age, In Mark 12:26 Jesus is speaking of the next age, Jesus says "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

By the "next age" I mean the age of the new heaven and the new earth which comes after the Second Coming of Christ.

The early Christians would agree with me that a legitimate marriage lasted to death (see below).

Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies 2:23:145:3 [A.D. 208]).

And it regards as adultery the marriage of a spouse, while the one from whom a separation was made is still alive.

Origen (Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248]).

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seem to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her".

I am sorry Johnny, but you are all over the place. You have misunderstood the argument and you contradict yourself right and left.

T-Shirt

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

I am sorry Johnny, but you are all over the place. You have misunderstood the argument and you contradict yourself right and left.

If I have misunderstood your argument then please rephrase your argument and I will be glad to address it ... thanks.

Please specify the contradictions. I am consistent with scripture and with the teachings of the early Christians.

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

Marriage is a reality of this present age. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties, especially to help them raise their children. In the next age, the age of the new heaven and new earth, this particular grace is no longer needed.

So in other words... you are saying... Adam and Eve will be divorced in the next age even though God joined them for eternity.

Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies 2:23:145:3 [A.D. 208]).

And it regards as adultery the marriage of a spouse, while the one from whom a separation was made is still alive.

Yet says nothing about having... two spouses at the same time.

You get it right if you believe the words of Jesus, he said "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Is it just me or did Johnny flip-flop right here... earlier he said...

<forthcomming>

[johnny]

Zakuska,

So in other words... Adam and Eve will be divorced in the next age?

Jesus tells us ... he said "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Yet says nothing about having... two spouses at the same time.

In the New Covent it is "his wife", it is NOT "his wives" ...

Mark.10

[6] But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

[7] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

[8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Jesus tells us ... he said "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Two spouses was adultery according to the early Christians and the New Testament ...

Nice to know they thought father Abraham Issaac and Jacob where Adulturers.

Zakuska,

No contradiction ... "marriage" is a ceremony .... "man and a wife" is a relationship ... Adam and Eve were man and wife, joined by God.

Is it just me or has Johnny's interpretation flip-flopped in this thread. Earlier he said that Mark was refering to No Marriage ceremonies being performed in the age to come and that our MARRAIGES (ie relationships with our wives) will continue for eternity.

Now he's saying that our marraige relationships dissolve at death.

[Zakuska]

Oh now you've changed your post...

So they thought Abraham, Isaac and Jacob where Adultuerers?

[Yme]

This thread raises an interesting question (indirectly) when one starts thinking of "eternal marriage" (as I have come to be exposed to it) and Adam and Eve.

With all the apologetic defenses of why polygamy was needed when either Smith or Young introduced it (which still seems to be very confused by the facts), particularly about "raising seed": Why didn't God just give Adam multiple righteous wives to start the whole thing off?? If God truly believed that "righteous seed" could be better raised or developed via polygamy [as we now here for a defense about Smith's choice of lifestyle], could there have ever been a more "opportune time" for the practice to have been introduced and blessed by God.

I mean sheesh, Adam produced 50 percent of offspring that were un-righteous via monagamy. ANd with more wives, the odds of him getting forbidden fruit would have been reduced exponentially.

Seems like if polygamy truely provided anything that monagamy could not have provided, God would have introduced it with the two of them as opposed with Joseph and Emma. Look what it brought to the SMith familiy?!

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Nice to know they thought father Abraham Issaac and Jacob where Adulturers.

Nice to know that was the Old Covenent ...

Now he's saying that our marraige relationships dissolve at death..

Jesus is saying "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Why is Mormon doctrine not consistent with the words of Jesus?

[Cold Steel]

My whole premise here may be in error, but if I understand the mainstream Christian's understanding of Adam and Eve, they believe the fall of Adam and Eve was a bad thing.

Yup. A just God would not create and place sentient beings in the conditions we now find ourselves in without their consent. The entire concept of free agency would prevent it. After all, Adam and Eve sinned; why should we inherit their sin and stand condemned before God, worthy of endless torment and punishment save for the grace of God? It would be akin to throwing someone who doesn't swim into a pool and then rescuing them. Of course the real victim would have been Jesus, who would be placed in the position of "saving" us from a fate that He essentially was responsible for as our creator. The Father would have demanded justice and He would have had to pay the price.

It has all the earmarks of a cosmic disaster. God put Adam and Eve on Earth, then was surprised, taken off guard, as it were, when they transgressed.

The LDS position is much more rational. It takes all of this into consideration. Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy. The whole idea from the beginning was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The fall was a necessary step. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus' mission was to save us and restore us to the Garden environment. Talk about missing the entire point! The point is that man could become as God, as the apostle John so elequently describes. This wasn't possible in the Garden. Besides, I don't particularly like gardens. It's so difficult to find a Wal*Mart with all that shrubbery lying around. And parking? Fuuuuuugitttttaboutit!

But we still love our misguided brethren, in a kind of a cultish sort of a way.

[Nephi]

Jesus is saying "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Why is Mormon doctrine not consistent with the words of Jesus?

It doesn't. If Mormons believe once married ALWAYS married, then when we rise from the dead, we do not marry again (we are already married) and we are not given in marriage (we are permanently man and wife. No giving required).

I think what the other are trying to say is that if a normally wedding ceremony states "till death do you part", then a "divorce clause" is written into the marriage to begin with. In otherwords, you are one until one of you dies, then you are no longer together, and the other is free to remarry.

Since Christ points out that we are neither married nor remarried, and genesis points out that we are man and wife for eternity, what the others are trying to say is that marriage is eternal. The temple (btw) is just the "house of God" and therefore, we are joined together in the presence of God (similar as how Adam and Eve are joined together in the Garden of Eden). An earthly priesthood holder was not needed, for the priesthood is the authority to act in God's name. If God is there doing the acting (and in reality, God is the ultimate priesthood holder), then no earthly priesthood holder is required.

[johnny]

Cold Steel,

The entire concept of free agency would prevent it.

The concept of free agency allowed Adam and Eve to obey or disobey God's commandment, they freely choose to disobey God's commandment.

After all, Adam and Eve sinned; why should we inherit their sin and stand condemned before God, worthy of endless torment and punishment save for the grace of God?

The Bible is clear "all have sinned" and are condemned because of Adam.

Rom.5

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

It would be akin to throwing someone who doesn't swim into a pool and then rescuing them. Of course the real victim would have been Jesus, who would be placed in the position of "saving" us from a fate that He essentially was responsible for as our creator.

Your analogy is not consistent with facts of Genesis. Adam and Eve had a choice to obey or disobey God's commandment.

It has all the earmarks of a cosmic disaster. God put Adam and Eve on Earth, then was surprised, taken off guard, as it were, when they transgressed.

Clearly scripture reveals that he was not surprised ...

The LDS position is much more rational. It takes all of this into consideration.

The LDS position is not consistent with the Bible, if so please explain to us how Romans 5:12-16 is consistent with the LDS position.

Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy.

Adam had joy before the fall, he was in the presence and fellowship with his Father.

The whole idea from the beginning was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

The whole idea from the beginning is to trust and obey God.

The fall was a necessary step.

The fall was not a necessary step because they had immorality before their fall.

The point is that man could become as God, as the apostle John so elequently describes.

Before the fall Adam and Eve had eternal life.

[Nephi]

The Bible is clear "all have sinned" and are condemned because of Adam.

Rom.5

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So my baby boy, freshly born has sinned? This doesn't make sense to me, and yet the Bible CLEARLY shows that ALL have sinned, that would include my freshly born baby boy, right?

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Nice to know that was the Old Covenent ...

Jesus is saying "they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Mark 12:25).

Why is Mormon doctrine not consistent with the words of Jesus?

No... The question is... why did you flip flop? Earlier you stated Mormon doctrine and then you changed your definition mid thread. why?

Mormon Doctrine is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. Marraige lasts beyond the Grave and is not dissolved at death. Unlike Catholic weddings which are dissolve by the Priest in the actual wedding, on condition of death.

So my baby boy, freshly born has sinned? This doesn't make sense to me, and yet the Bible CLEARLY shows that ALL have sinned, that would include my freshly born baby boy, right?

Well that depends on how you interpret this verse...

Rom. 9: 11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[Nephi]

No... The question is... why did you flip flop? Earlier you stated Mormon doctrine and then you changed your definition mid thread. why?

Mormon Doctrine is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. Marraige lasts beyond the Grave and is not dissolved at death. Unlike Catholic weddings which are dissolve by the Priest in the actual wedding, on condition of death.

Well that depends on how you interpret this verse...

Rom. 9: 11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So, if he hasn't been born, then he has not sinned. But once mom pops him out, he's a sinner? I know this is a catholic viewpoint (hence infant baptism and Godfathers), but for johnny (I dunno what denomination he is), I would like to know...

[Zakuska]

Johnny is a long time ressident Catholic. He and I go Way... Wayyyy. back.

[Nephi]

Johnny is a long time ressident Catholic. He and I go Way... Wayyyy. back.

I was raised in a very Catholic town, and have a good layman's understand of Catholicism. I find it to be a very beautiful religion, and for many souls, it is the true church. However, I did find a way to truly stump those who believe in infant baptism (not trying to derail this thread, so just take it for what its worth)...

A friend of mine growing up (not Catholic, but still believed in original sin) used to argue that we are here to get to heaven, and that once you are born, you are a sinner. However, he believed still birth NOT to be technically born. So I argued that since heaven is the goal, then why not sacrafice your one soul to save thousands by practicing partial birth abortions. In a partial birth abortion, the child is killed in the womb, and then removed (stillbirth of sorts). Therefore that child automatically goes to Heaven! Lol... I made him so mad because all he could say was, "that is so wrong," but couldn't explain why. Later on in life he found me and came to tell me that he had come to the realization that there are purposes why we are here on earth (natural callings), and he had also come to terms with infant baptisms. It was a cool thing....

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread

[johnny]

Nephi,

It doesn't. If Mormons believe once married ALWAYS married, then when we rise from the dead, we do not marry again (we are already married) and we are not given in marriage (we are permanently man and wife. No giving required).

The idea that a couple is ALWAYS married does not fit in with the New Covenent. In the New Covenant it is man and wife, it is not a man and plural wives. If a wife dies and the husband marries a second time that husband has plural wives if "once married ALWAYS married.

I think what the other are trying to say is that if a normally wedding ceremony states "till death do you part", then a "divorce clause" is written into the marriage to begin with. In otherwords, you are one until one of you dies, then you are no longer together, and the other is free to remarry.

It is not a "divorce clause" because Jesus prohibits divorcing. Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.

Since Christ points out that we are neither married nor remarried, and genesis points out that we are man and wife for eternity, what the others are trying to say is that marriage is eternal.

And I say that their relationship is eternal.