Eternal Marriage

[johnny]

Nephi,

So my baby boy, freshly born has sinned? This doesn't make sense to me, and yet the Bible CLEARLY shows that ALL have sinned, that would include my freshly born baby boy, right?

Your freshly born baby boy has sin ... "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:22).

[Nephi]

Nephi,

The idea that a couple is ALWAYS married does not fit in with the New Covenent. In the New Covenant it is man and wife, it is not a man and plural wives. If a wife dies and the husband marries a second time that husband has plural wives if "once married ALWAYS married.

This is a Mormon philosophy, btw...

It is not a "divorce clause" because Jesus prohibits divorcing. Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.

But even within the Catholic church I have seen people remarry. Why would this be allowed? If the first marriage was annulled what happens to the "dearly departed" at the time of the resurrection?

Nephi,

Your freshly born baby boy has sin ... "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:22).

I do not wish to hijack this thread, so we will save infant baptism for another thread some other day.

[johnny]

Nephi,

he believed still birth NOT to be technically born ... Therefore that child automatically goes to Heaven!

No child goes automatically to Heaven, in the case of a still birth the Church can only entrust that unborn to the mercy of God.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread

I agree ...

[johnny]

Nephi,

This is a Mormon philosophy, btw...

Mormon philosphy does not fit the New Covenant, the New Covenant says a man and a wife, it does not say a man and plural wives. The idea of ALWAYS married does not fit in with the New Covenent and people remarrying once their spouse dies.

But even within the Catholic church I have seen people remarry. Why would this be allowed? If the first marriage was annulled what happens to the "dearly departed" at the time of the resurrection?

People can remarry if the Catholic Church determines that a valid marriage never existed in the first place.

I will respond tomorrow evening since it is my bedtime and I will be working tomorrow ...

[Nephi]

Nephi,

Mormon philosphy does not fit the New Covenant, the New Covenant says a man and a wife, it does not say a man and plural wives. The idea of ALWAYS married does not fit in with the New Covenent and people remarrying once their spouse dies.

How does plural marriage not fit the new covenant? Are you implying that Christ somehow changed the original Covenant? If so, then he is not the true Christ, for Deut 4:2 states that Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. So, Christ doesn't add to nor take away, only intensifies, or corrects our errors that had occurred by the time Christ's Ministry began.

If on the other hand, you imply that plural marriage is not part of the "New Covenant" then I need proof that plural marriage is not.

btw: I will not remarry if my wife goes before me. I can barely handle the one wife I have now. I do not need another! lol

[johnny]

Nephi,

How does plural marriage not fit the new covenant?

In Mark 12:19-25 the question is "whose wife shall she be", the issue is one man and one wife. Jesus answers indicates that marriage is an institution intended to serve only this present life. If plural spouses were the norm of the new covenant then in Mark 12 it would not matter "whose wife shall she be".

Mark.12

[23] In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

[24] And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

[25] For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Are you implying that Christ somehow changed the original Covenant?

In the New Testament Jesus indicated that marriage was to be restored to the state God had intended in Genesis 2 which is "two" (see below).

Eph.5

[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Mark.10

[6] But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

[7] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

[8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

[9] What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

If so, then he is not the true Christ, for Deut 4:2 states that Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. So, Christ doesn't add to nor take away, only intensifies, or corrects our errors that had occurred by the time Christ's Ministry began.

Christ intensifes, in the Old Covenant plural wives were tolerated by God. Godâ??s plan from the begining was for Adam and Eve to be together, certainly not for Adam to be married to Eve and Barbara at the same time.

If on the other hand, you imply that plural marriage is not part of the "New Covenant" then I need proof that plural marriage is not.

In the New Testament a bishop had "one wife" (1Tim 3:2), a bishop did not have plural wives.

1Tim.3

[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

***.1

[6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

btw: I will not remarry if my wife goes before me. I can barely handle the one wife I have now. I do not need another! lol

Remarry is permitted in the New Testament if one spouse dies. A marriage is a marriage, "until death do you part." Only death can dissolve a marriage (Mark 10:1â??12, Rom. 7:2â??3, 1 Cor. 7:10â??11).

[Nephi]

And I say that their relationship is eternal.

***.1

[6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Remarry is permitted in the New Testament if one spouse dies. A marriage is a marriage, "until death do you part." Only death can dissolve a marriage (Mark 10:1–12, Rom. 7:2–3, 1 Cor. 7:10–11).

So, in other words men and women are married on earth, but after resurrection, they are in a relationship eternal? This is just a debate over the letter of the law, then, as though marriage is some other mystical thing, and not just a formal relationship between two individuals. In Mormonism, we call the relationship a marriage from beginning onward, but from your standpoint (assuming Catholicism) you stipulate that marriage is something else, but the relationship between the two is never severed. Am I getting this correct?

If so, then this is but a mere debate over the definition of the word "marriage" and nothing more.

[johnny]

Nephi,

So, in other words men and women are married on earth, but after resurrection, they are in a relationship eternal?

Yes, after the resurrection there relationship continues.

This is just a debate over the letter of the law, then, as though marriage is some other mystical thing, and not just a formal relationship between two individuals. In Mormonism, we call the relationship a marriage from beginning onward, but from your standpoint (assuming Catholicism) you stipulate that marriage is something else, but the relationship between the two is never severed. Am I getting this correct?

For Catholics marriage is a sacrament. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties. After the resurrection these particular graces are no longer needed. Marriage is a reality of this present age which is passing away (Mk 12:25; 1 Cor 7:31).

If so, then this is but a mere debate over the definition of the word "marriage" and nothing more.

In this age, marriage is about adultery and divorce, in "marriage" there is a marriage bond which can only be loosed by the death of a spouse. Jesus clearly reveals that a second marriage is adultery. Marriage is about the fidelity of chastity.

[Nephi]

Nephi,

Yes, after the resurrection there relationship continues.

For Catholics marriage is a sacrament. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties. After the resurrection these particular graces are no longer needed. Marriage is a reality of this present age which is passing away (Mk 12:25; 1 Cor 7:31).

In this age, marriage is about adultery and divorce, in "marriage" there is a marriage bond which can only be loosed by the death of a spouse. Jesus clearly reveals that a second marriage is adultery. Marriage is about the fidelity of chastity.

I agree that marriage today has been tossed around like its nothing, what with ppl divorcing, remarrying, and others, but in a way Catholicism and Mormonism hold marriage in the same very high regard, and both believe that the relationship it creates is eternal. If someone were to divorce and remarry in the Mormon church, there is a good chance they would be disfellowshipped (though I am not a bishop to know this or not). I can say that there was a guy in our ward who cheated on his wife and was excommnicated because of this. He has been married to his adulterous wife since then (over 10 years) but because this marriage is considered unholy by the church, he would not be allowed back into the fold until he repents (which means to make right what he did wrong).

[Zakuska]

Yes, after the resurrection there[sic] relationship continues.

How? The Priest says their relationship is dissolved at death. How can it continue?

[Nephi]

How? The Priest says their relationship is dissolved at death. How can it continue?

Johnny is making a distinction between marriage (which is but a sacred ceremony), and a relationship. The priest states that the marriage is parted upon death, but the relationship is eternal. Marriage is (if I understand him correctly) an earthly representation of an eternal bond, which would naturally be dissolved at death for the earthly body of one is no more. The relationship, however, is eternal.

[Lachoneus]

Yes, after the resurrection there relationship continues.

Does that relationship have a name and a definition, or is it just some sort of an undefined, generic "relationship"?

[T-Shirt]

Yes, after the resurrection there relationship continues.

Does that mean that a couple who lives in sin, by not ever getting legally married, will be able to maintain their relationship in the resurrection?

If a man's spouse dies, and he remarries, will his relationship with both spouses continue in the resurrection?

How is this relationship different than being married?

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

Johnny has kind of mucked things up in here. I would really be interested in the input of others, such as CKSalmon, Rhinomelon and other non-LDS Christians regarding the OP.

Regards,

T-Shirt

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Does that relationship have a name and a definition, or is it just some sort of an undefined, generic "relationship"?

These relationships have names like mother, daughter, man, wife ...

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

Does that mean that a couple who lives in sin, by not ever getting legally married, will be able to maintain their relationship in the resurrection?

Fornication relationships will not maintained in the resurrection.

If a man's spouse dies, and he remarries, will his relationship with both spouses continue in the resurrection?

Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love, polygamous relationship would not continue in the resurrection.

How is this relationship different than being married?

This relationship is different in than it is not polygamous.

[T-Shirt]

T-Shirt,

Fornication relationships will not maintained in the resurrection.

So, in other words, the means by which a husband and wife become bound to each other is through a process called marriage. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love, polygamous relationship would not continue in the resurrection.

But you already said that one is free to marry after his spouse dies and that this does not constitute polygamy. If the husband and wife relationship continues after the resurrection, why would not each of these relationships continue? If they are not married, it cannot be called polygamy.

This relationship is different in than it is not polygamous.

Sorry, I meant, how is a husband and wife relationship different than a marriage relationship?

T-Shirt

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

So, in other words, the means by which a husband and wife become bound to each other is through a process called marriage. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The consent (the exchange of vows) by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other binds the two.

But you already said that one is free to marry after his spouse dies and that this does not constitute polygamy. If the husband and wife relationship continues after the resurrection, why would not each of these relationships continue? If they are not married, it cannot be called polygamy.

One is free to marry after his spouse dies. In the resurrection their will be only "two" that become "one flesh" because this is the way it was in the beginning.

Sorry, I meant, how is a husband and wife relationship different than a marriage relationship?

A "husband and wife relationship" like Adam and Eve's does not involve the sacrament of marriage.

A "marriage relationship" involves the sacrament of marriage. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties. After the resurrection these particular graces are not needed.

[T-Shirt]

T-Shirt,

The consent (the exchange of vows) by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other binds the two.

Why can't a couple exchange these vows without getting married?

One is free to marry after his spouse dies. In the resurrection their will be only "two" that become "one flesh" because this is the way it was in the beginning.

I am unaware of anywhere in the Bible where it is stated that a man cannot become one flesh with more than one woman. Can you show me?

A "husband and wife relationship" like Adam and Eve's does not involve the sacrament of marriage.

How do you know this?

A "marriage relationship" involves the sacrament of marriage. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties. After the resurrection these particular graces are not needed.

So they are divorced at death.

T-Shirt

[Lachoneus]

These relationships have names like mother, daughter, man, wife ...

So if a wife is still a wife, then the man and wife are still married, meaning their marriage remains intact and has not been dissolved by death. If it was dissolved by death, then she is no longer a wife because that relationship ended at death.

[Lachoneus]

A "husband and wife relationship" like Adam and Eve's does not involve the sacrament of marriage.

This makes no sense. How could Adam and Eve have a "husband and wife relationship" unless they were married? And who married Adam to Eve if not God Himself? Was this not the sacrament of marriage? Or did God perform a "civil" ceremony for them rather than the sacrament of marriage?

A "marriage relationship" involves the sacrament of marriage. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives particular graces to help married couples with lifeâ??s difficulties. After the resurrection these particular graces are not needed.

Is the "husband and wife relationship" not the same as the "marriage relationship"? OR are you using the words "husband" and "wife" to mean something other than "a married person"?

Whether or not these particular graces are needed or not is irrelevant as to whether the couple is still married so that the relationship of husband and wife still continues. If the relationship still continues, then they are still married.

[johnny]

T-Shirt,

Why can't a couple exchange these vows without getting married?

Many couples do simply exchange vows withtout getting married.

I am unaware of anywhere in the Bible where it is stated that a man cannot become one flesh with more than one woman. Can you show me?

Ephesians 5:31 says "two shall be one flesh" ... it does not say "two or more shall be one flesh".

How do you know this?

The Book of Genesis does not mention Adam and Eve getting married.

So they are divorced at death.

They are not divorced at death because in the New Covent divorce is not permitted.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

So if a wife is still a wife, then the man and wife are still married, meaning their marriage remains intact and has not been dissolved by death. If it was dissolved by death, then she is no longer a wife because that relationship ended at death.

Saying they are "still married" is not consistent with scripture, if they were "still married" then a surviving spouse would not be able to marry without committing adultery.

This makes no sense. How could Adam and Eve have a "husband and wife relationship" unless they were married? And who married Adam to Eve if not God Himself? Was this not the sacrament of marriage? Or did God perform a "civil" ceremony for them rather than the sacrament of marriage?

Adam and Eve could have a "husband and wife relationship" without being married, as man and wife they could generate children and become "one flesh". Scripture does not reveal that Adam and Eve "were married".

Is the "husband and wife relationship" not the same as the "marriage relationship"? OR are you using the words "husband" and "wife" to mean something other than "a married person"?

A "marriage relationship" is different than a "husband and wife relationship". The "marriage relationship" involves a sacrament, a sacrement gives particular graces to help couples with life's difficulties, especially to help them raise their children.

Whether or not these particular graces are needed or not is irrelevant as to whether the couple is still married so that the relationship of husband and wife still continues. If the relationship still continues, then they are still married.

A "relationship of husband and wife" can occur without being married. The exchange of consent between the spouses is the indispensable element that makes them man and wife. The consent consists in a human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other: "I take you to be my wife" - "I take you to be my husband." This consent binds the spouses to each other, the two "becoming one flesh."

[Cold Steel]

The concept of free agency allowed Adam and Eve to obey or disobey God's commandment, they freely [chose] to disobey God's commandment.

Yes, they most certainly did, Ollie. But that was them. What of us? If we follow your theology, we weren't even in existence. So when generation after generation comes along, they, through no fault of their own (and that's the primary point here) come into the world tainted with sin. Is this just? If you're correct, did I ask to be born? No. Do I deserve to be thrown into hell because of my fallen nature? No, because I can't help it. Neither can anyone else except Christ. Is it just to force mortality on someone without their consent? Absolutely not. We didn't ask for it, we don't deserve hell because of our faulty programming, and not all the Bible passages written by Paul can change it.

Okay, the Bible is clear that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," but whose fault is that? Ours? No, it was Adam's fault. Should we have to pay for it? Again, the Bible says no: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:20-22) Thus it is that Jesus paid the price of sin caused by Adam. So the sin caused by Adam is paid by Christ.

But if Christ has paid the price, why are people still dying? Shouldn't we be immortal now? I mean, if the price has been paid, can't we leave the store?

No, because we're going through a process. Many other Earths have been created and a fall was necessary for them all. Joseph Fielding Smith said: "There are many worlds that have passed through the same experience that we are going through. [God] has had sons and daughters on other Earths, where they have had the same privileges and the same opportunities to serve him and the same commandments that we have had given to us." (Conference Report, April 1968, First Dayâ??Morning Meeting, p.10.)

He stated elsewhere: "We have brothers and sisters on other Earths. They look like us because they, too, are the children of God and were created in his image, for they are also his offspring. His great work is to create earths and people them with his children who are called upon to pass through the mortal probation like unto this we are now in, suffering pain, sorrow and the ills of the flesh, coming face to face with sin, with temptation; and having the right within themselves, God-given, to reject the evil and receive the good or reject the good and receive the evil, if they will, with the understanding, of course, that they shall be judged before his bar for their deeds and receive their reward accordingly. Every man has his agency to choose good or evil, to be rewarded or debased, and of course each will be rewarded." (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., 1:, p.62)

John said that when we see God, "we shall be like Him." Adam could not become as God without passing through the fall and the atonement. A garden environment without the knowledge of good and evilâ??how would he accomplish it? Remember that God put these two innocents, Adam and Eve in a garden with a tree of knowledge of good and evil. And He said, "Don't eat it," and left them there with Satan, a master of deception. And immediately after they partook, recall that God placed an angel between the tree of life and Adam and Eve. Doesn't the whole thing sound like a setup to you? Police would call that "entrapment."

Doesn't it make sense that the Lord would know what He was doing when He created man? That He had a purpose for creating them and that it wasn't just a case of something going awry? Somehow I would think that God would be smarter than that; that He would have a deeper purpose.

[Nephi]

Johnny:

What I don't quite get is let's say my wife dies, and I remarry. I am not committing adultery as you put it, correct? Now it is time for the resurrection. Who am I bound to and who is left out in the dark? What happens to the one who is left out in the dark? If I am her first husband, then she is just SOL?