LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,Read my earlier posts ... "being married" is receiving the sacrament of matrimony. Adam and Eve did not receive the sacrament of matrimony.So it is ok to have sexual relations without having been married?
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,So it is ok to have sexual relations without having been married?If ok if you are man and wife, Adam and Eve were man and wife.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,If ok if you are man and wife, Adam and Eve were man and wife.So they were married then.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,So they were married thenThe Bible does not reveal they "were married". It only reveals they were man and wife.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,The Bible does not reveal they "were married". It only reveals they were man and wife.They were man and wife, married for eternity [as death did not exist in the garden]. When the fall ocurred they would face death and a separation; but the eternal marriage would be restored by the atonement of Jesus Christ; as it is for all who are sealed by God's authority.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,They were man and wife, married for eternity [as death did not exist in the garden]. When the fall ocurred they would face death and a separation; but the eternal marriage would be restored by the atonement of Jesus Christ; as it is for all who are sealed by God's authority.Which Bible verses describes Adam and Eve getting "married" ... my Bible only says man and wife?
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,Which Bible verses describes Adam and Eve getting "married" ... my Bible only says man and wife?If you speak only of the canonical Bible, I fear there is no quote saying "Adam and Eve were expressly married." It is inferred from the commandments and expectations given them of God. The ceremony itself, being sacred especially, is not found therein. Man and wife, to me, would be marriage. Luckily, for the restored gospel, we have explicit revelations dealing with the subject that haven't suffered from losses or glosses removing the meanings thereof. I'm not sure how "man and wife" is different from "marriage." What God has joined together, as you know, let no man put asunder. What is bound on earth can be bound in heaven. Adam and Eve were married, commanded to procreate, and that is the simple story.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,The ceremony itself, being sacred especially, is not found therein. Man and wife, to me, would be marriage. In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?If so, could you tell us the Bible verse that describes Adam and Eve being baptized before they became man and wife, I assume baptism is not a sacred ceremony.
Nephi Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,They are not the same thing, God hates divorce.Heh. Yeah, well, God may hate divorce, but calling the girl big boned instead of fat doesn't make her good looking to the general population. Its the same thing, and if it is not, then show otherwise, because a divorce is where two people no longer continue their sexual relationship, though (especially if they have children) they keep their relationship, just not sexual. That is a divorce, and what you are describing is a divorce. Call it enforcement of God's law or anything else, a big pile of poo by any other name still stinks.During the mortal life, there was not a sexual relationship of three or more occuring.I am not arguing this with you. I understand that during the mortal life polygamy is not occurring, but by allowing a 2nd marriage to be sanctioned by the Church, knowing that in the afterlife, one of these people is going to be "disowned", seems to me to be a double standard. Not polygamy in mortal life, but setting up for a heartbreak for someone in the afterlife...It seems to me the Catholic Church is being consistent with scripture.Yes, they are following the letter of the law, but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should allow it, knowing that when the resurrection occurs, you are setting them up for heartbreak and sadness. If heartbreak is to happen, then the 2nd marriage should not be sanctioned. This is like saying, "well, cigarettes will cause you bad problems in the future, but since tobacco is legal, go ahead and smoke 'em."
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?If so, could you tell us the Bible verse that describes Adam and Eve being baptized before they became man and wife, I assume baptism is not a sacred ceremony.The covenant of baptism was uneccessary in the Garden, as no sin or death had yet taken place.Question: Were Adam and Eve baptised?Answer: Yes, after the Fall.Question: Is that in the canonical Bible?Answer: No; It is in the Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses.Baptism is a sacred ceremony, and one we are to invite all to participate in. We find examples of it in the Bible; we also find examples of it being changed into various means such as sprinkling, etc. which we do not find in the canonical Bible. All sacred ceremonies can be participated in by all; but not all are discussed openly.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,Answer: Yes, after the Fall.Therefore Adam and Eve were man and wife without have been baptized.Again I ask ... In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,Yes, they are following the letter of the law, but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should allow it, knowing that when the resurrection occurs, you are setting them up for heartbreak and sadness. If heartbreak is to happen, then the 2nd marriage should not be sanctioned. I find interesting that you say there is "heartbreak and sadness" just because they are not having a physical sexual relationship. What about the joy that comes from following God's ways and the joy that comes from the fellowship of non-sexual relationships.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate,Therefore Adam and Eve were man and wife without have been baptized.There had been no fall yet. No baptism needed. The perfect order of God was created (an eternal paradise with a husband and wife, commanded to multiply and replenish). This order was disrupted by the Fall, but an atonement was promised in order to restore Adam and Eve to their former condition. Thus, in the Garden, no baptism was needed yet. Again I ask ... In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?We are placed in a mortal, not immortal, world, subject to the Fall of Adam, as well as to our own individual failings in sin. Thus, baptism is required of us, as it was of Adam and Eve after the Fall.
Nephi Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,I find interesting that you say there is "heartbreak and sadness" just because they are not having a physical sexual relationship. What about the joy that comes from following God's ways and the joy that comes from the fellowship of non-sexual relationships.Obviously you haven't seen what happens in a relationship between a man and woman with children when mommie and daddie no longer have sexual relations... Yeah following God's way is joyous, but you are missing the point of what happens in a relationship when it changes as such.When a relationship is to the point that it makes love, and then moves back to the "non-sexual" relationship status, people suffer.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate, There had been no fall yet. No baptism needed. The perfect order of God was created (an eternal paradise with a husband and wife, commanded to multiply and replenish).You say "no baptism needed", I say no marriage need. Like baptism, marriage is a sacrament or ordinance.We are placed in a mortal, not immortal, world, subject to the Fall of Adam, as well as to our own individual failings in sin. Thus, baptism is required of us, as it was of Adam and Eve after the Fall.You are still not answering my simple question ... In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?
Nephi Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 You are still not answering my simple question ... In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?Yes, in the Mormon church, we will not baptize two individuals who are living in sin. They must be legally married first.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,Obviously you haven't seen what happens in a relationship between a man and woman with children when mommie and daddie no longer have sexual relations... Yeah following God's way is joyous, but you are missing the point of what happens in a relationship when it changes as such.The point is that the relationship we are talking about is after the resurrection, where individuals have the fulness of joy.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,Yes, in the Mormon church, we will not baptize two individuals who are living in sin. They must be legally married first.Thanks for responding ... but that still does not answer my question.I will ask it in a different way ... In the Mormon Church is a male and female "living in sin" who have not been baptized considered man and wife.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 LifeOnaPlate, You say "no baptism needed", I say no marriage need. Like baptism, marriage is a sacrament or ordinance.Ok, so Adam and Eve, in the garden, would have been able to exist- in some sort of relationship- and they would have multiplied and replenished the earth, without being married? Baptism is a redemptive ordinance. Sealing is an exalting act. To the LDS Church there is a difference, and it holds great significance for us. You are still not answering my simple question ... In the Mormon Church to become man and wife do the individuals need to be baptized?I thought I was clear before, sorry for the ambiguity. I said: We are placed in a mortal, not immortal, world, subject to the Fall of Adam, as well as to our own individual failings in sin. Thus, baptism is required of us, as it was of Adam and Eve after the Fall. This would be an answer in the affimative.
Nephi Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,The point is that the relationship we are talking about is after the resurrection, where individuals have the fulness of joy.I agree at after the resurrection, fulness of joy occurs, but if one can no longer have the relationship where intense love was created through a sacred act, how will this fulness of joy be? Either God psychologically changes the individual (which negates free agency), or a second marriage on earth is actually against God's plan, or God allows a dual relationship to occur in the resurrection. It would be compared to how God has love for each of us, individually. My love I receive from him is not dependent upon others. Its a one way avenue between God and myself. Regardless, I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't agree with it. The Holy Ghost testifies that this is not correct to me, and when I look at the same scriptures you point out, I see extreme discrepancies in what you tell us they mean, what we see, and what the HG testifies.Nephi,Thanks for responding ... but that still does not answer my question.I will ask it in a different way ... In the Mormon Church is a male and female "living in sin" who have not been baptized considered man and wife.They are not baptized, but are legally married? No, they are legally married. Therefore they are legally not committing adultery.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 I will ask it in a different way ... In the Mormon Church is a male and female "living in sin" who have not been baptized considered man and wife.A man and woman living together who have not been married- either civil or eternal- may be (somewhat unofficially" referred to as "living in sin." Man and wife=husband and wife=a married couple.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Forgive our confusion, it feels like you may be unduly complicating the issue. It seems you feel there is a difference between "man and wife" and a married couple; "husband and wife." I am unclear on why you distinguish between the two, as they seem to be the same thing.
T-Shirt Posted August 17, 2007 Author Posted August 17, 2007 Police Officer to Johnny:Sir, you were speeding.Johnny:No I wasn't.Police:You were going fifty in a twenty-five.Johnny:Yes, but I wasn't speeding, I was just going too fast.Police:Whatever...here's your ticket for speeding.Johnny:You can't give me a ticket for speeding when all I was doing was going too fast!Police:Tell it to the judge.Johnny, mumbling to himself while driving away:The judge hates speeding, but that officer will learn soon enough that the judge will not stand for him giving a speeding ticket to someone who was only going too fast.T-Shirt
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 I really feel like every conversation I've had with johnny has been thusly so, T-Shirt. I'm not sure what he's trying to say.
johnny Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Nephi,I agree at after the resurrection, fulness of joy occurs, but if one can no longer have the relationship where intense love was created through a sacred act, how will this fulness of joy be?One can still have this relationship but it simply not with "three or more" it is meant from the beginning to be with just "two".Either God psychologically changes the individual (which negates free agency), or a second marriage on earth is actually against God's plan, or God allows a dual relationship to occur in the resurrection. A "second marriage" is not supported in the New Covenant.The Holy Ghost testifies that this is not correct to me, and when I look at the same scriptures you point out, I see extreme discrepancies in what you tell us they mean, what we see, and what the HG testifies.What "extremem discrepancies" are you talking about ... please be specific.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.