I'm interested in learning early LDS beliefs. Where do I begin?'

[rosenotes]

Hi ❤️ I'm a non denominational Christian and admittedly I lean towards the sola scriptura perspective quite often. Recently though, I've felt a desire to learn more about the LDS faith.

I'm looking for some advice on where to begin. I want to understand and learn the faith as it was originally taught and practiced. Not the water down version as most other religions appear to do these days.

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

Any advice on where to start for what I'm looking for specifically? 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, rosenotes said:

Hi ❤️ I'm a non denominational Christian and admittedly I lean towards the sola scriptura perspective quite often. Recently though, I've felt a desire to learn more about the LDS faith.

I'm looking for some advice on where to begin. I want to understand and learn the faith as it was originally taught and practiced. Not the water down version as most other religions appear to do these days.

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

Any advice on where to start for what I'm looking for specifically? 

By far, the best place to start is to read and ponder the Book of Mormon with a prayerful heart and an open mind. Also, it must be said that the official website of the Church is the greatest overall resource for those who have a sincere desire to learn about the teachings of the church, including the Book of Mormon. Tap the ‘Libraries’ prompt at the top of the home page and a veritable world of discovery is waiting for you. Here’s the link: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng 

Edited June 19 by teddyaware

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, rosenotes said:

Hi ❤️ I'm a non denominational Christian and admittedly I lean towards the sola scriptura perspective quite often. Recently though, I've felt a desire to learn more about the LDS faith.

I'm looking for some advice on where to begin. I want to understand and learn the faith as it was originally taught and practiced. Not the water down version as most other religions appear to do these days.

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

Any advice on where to start for what I'm looking for specifically? 

Being non denomination sola scriptura, do you arrive at support for polygamy now? Or like virtually every Christian, do you acknowledge its toleration only in ancient times, the "times of ignorance which God winked at."

You will have a hard time sharing a husband with your fellow wives with any Christians anywhere except the tiniest Sola Scriptura community today rosenotes. You might find some sick pud who welcomes you on the side without telling his wife. I hope you wouldn't want that kind of "husband".

[manol]

4 hours ago, rosenotes said:

 I want to understand and learn the faith as it was originally taught and practiced. Not the water down version as most other religions appear to do these days.

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

Any advice on where to start for what I'm looking for specifically? 

I agree with @teddyaware.  Start with the Book of Mormon.

I say this not as a faithful member (which Teddy is), but rather as someone who is no long affiliated with the LDS Church nor any other religion.  And also as someone whose journey has included living as a serious investigator among two different groups that supported plural marriage.  Whether you end up concluding that the modern LDS Church or some other group is the most authentic, it traces back to the Book of Mormon either way.

And even today many of the teachings I encountered within the LDS Church, and in particular within the Book of Mormon, continue to inform my seeking. 

Edited June 19 by manol

[rosenotes]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

By far, the best place to start is to read and ponder the Book of Mormon with a prayerful heart and an open mind. Also, it must be said that the official website of the Church is the greatest overall resource for those who have a sincere desire to learn about the teachings of the church, including the Book of Mormon. Tap the ‘Libraries’ prompt at the top of the home page and a veritable world of discovery is waiting for you. Here’s the link: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng 

Thank you 😊 I have started reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it as well. I downloaded the gospel library app. I just wasn't sure if that was the best resource.

[rosenotes]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Being non denomination sola scriptura, do you arrive at support for polygamy now? Or like virtually every Christian, do you acknowledge its toleration only in ancient times, the "times of ignorance which God winked at."

You will have a hard time sharing a husband with your fellow wives with any Christians anywhere except the tiniest Sola Scriptura community today rosenotes. You might find some sick pud who welcomes you on the side without telling his wife. I hope you wouldn't want that kind of "husband".

I believe that both plural and monogamous marriages are valid in the eyes of God. I came to this conclusion based on studying scripture for what I believe it actually says, and not what is being taught by society or religions.

Most refuse to see it as anything other than sinful. It's an easy way for me to sort through who, at the very least, has a basic understanding of what scripture actually says.

I never said I was personally looking for a husband. I certainly don't have any interest in being someone's mistress or supporting a man who cheats and lies to his wife. And I don't even know what a "pud," is lol  

[manol]

@rosenotes, thirty-something years ago when I was an active member of the LDS Church I suddenly wanted to understand my adopted heritage (I was a convert).  Here are some of the books I found useful:

1. "Saints", by Orson Scott Card (author of "Ender's Game").  Imo superb historical novel set in the time of Joseph Smith.  Plural marriage, or "the Principle", is one of the topics that comes up in the life of the main character, a woman from England who moves to the United States.  This book sent me on a quest to find out if some of the things described therein actually happened, so I turned to several historical sources and found a lot of confirmation. 

2.  “Joseph Smith, the First Mormon” by Donna Hill

3.  “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie. Often characterized as “anti-Mormon”, but I didn't see it that way. 

I also read two or three books which were collections of journal entries of early Mormon women.  One of them was "Women of Nauvoo", but I can't remember the names of the other(s). 

I would characterize these sources as "plural-marriage-friendly" or "plural-marriage-neutral".   

[webbles]

4 hours ago, Nero said:

Not the watered down version of the original? Originaly there was polygamy including minors and already married woman and black people where black because they got burned by the fires of hell and were not welcome in the church and for many years and not allowed to ascend. The US goernment hunted them so they fled to Utah where gold made them rich and there were many firefights.

The old original mormons had firearms an would fight for survival and their belief...

Sorry my dear mormon mates but she asked for it.

Gold made the mormons rich?  I'd love to see a source for that.  Because Utah never really had a gold rush or boom.  Park City area had a mining boom but that was mostly silver, and those who mined there were usually at odds with the church.

[rosenotes]

4 hours ago, manol said:

@rosenotes, thirty-something years ago when I was an active member of the LDS Church I suddenly wanted to understand my adopted heritage (I was a convert).  Here are some of the books I found useful:

1. "Saints", by Orson Scott Card (author of "Ender's Game").  Imo superb historical novel set in the time of Joseph Smith.  Plural marriage, or "the Principle", is one of the topics that comes up in the life of the main character, a woman from England who moves to the United States.  This book sent me on a quest to find out if some of the things described therein actually happened, so I turned to several historical sources and found a lot of confirmation. 

2.  “Joseph Smith, the First Mormon” by Donna Hill

3.  “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie. Often characterized as “anti-Mormon”, but I didn't see it that way. 

I also read two or three books which were collections of journal entries of early Mormon women.  One of them was "Women of Nauvoo", but I can't remember the names of the other(s). 

I would characterize these sources as "plural-marriage-friendly" or "plural-marriage-neutral".   

Thank you ❤️ I really appreciate your recommendations. I'm excited to read them. 

[webbles]

5 hours ago, Nero said:

They sent expeditions to another nearby state and got the gold from there. Was it California? Just look it up it is no secret. It is also the richest church on earth and they are so greedy that even the 18 year old missionaries have to pay the church tax so they are poor. Mormons will be quick to tell you about all the charity they do. Which is partially true, its just that, they have billions and give away a couple millions. In % its the same as me giving 5$ to some bum.

 

The church leadeers say that they need the money to survive the apocalypse. haha.

Ok, I think you might have your history confused.  It seems like you are thinking about the Mormon Battalion which was actually there at Sutter's Fort when gold was first found in California.  But they weren't sent to get gold.  They were sent to help out with the American-Mexican war and the wages for that were to help pay for things (this was right after they were kicked out of Nauvoo).  When they reached California (going through New Mexico and Arizona), they were then disbanded (by the US government because the war was over) and they stayed in California to make some money before they headed back to find the other pioneers.  That was when they were involved in the discover of gold.  They did find some gold and did bring it back to Utah but it didn't really make the Mormons rich.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion for a decent rundown.

Based on what you've written, I think you have a very superficial understanding of the history but have a bunch of things confused or mixed up.  There's nuggets of truth in what you said but a lot of incorrect assumptions.  For example, you just said "It is also the richest church on earth" which is wrong.  The Catholic church wins by a landslide.

[teddyaware]

18 hours ago, rosenotes said:

Thank you 😊 I have started reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it as well. I downloaded the gospel library app. I just wasn't sure if that was the best resource.

As you likely already realize, this discussion board is not the place for you to learn about the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from a faithful believer’s perspective. The problem is that there are many participants on this board who are either embittered former members who are obsessed with criticizing the church nonstop, or unbelieving non-members who are ill equipped to help you learn the teachings of the church from a faithful, spiritually inspired perspective.

As I previously suggested, your best bet is to prayerfully read the Book of Mormon, and also perform deep dive research utilizing the “Libraries” option on the official church website. Another very helpful option would be to find a local congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ on Latter-Day Saints in your area where you will be warmly received and taught by faithful members. By attending church services you will not only be taking advantage of another resource to help familiarize you with the doctrines of the church, but you will also be able discern for yourself whether or not the religion of the Latter-Day Saints bears discernible good fruit in the lives of its faithful members. All the best to you in your quest for truth!

Edited June 20 by teddyaware

[gopher]

23 hours ago, rosenotes said:

Hi ❤️ I'm a non denominational Christian and admittedly I lean towards the sola scriptura perspective quite often. Recently though, I've felt a desire to learn more about the LDS faith.

I'm looking for some advice on where to begin. I want to understand and learn the faith as it was originally taught and practiced. Not the water down version as most other religions appear to do these days.

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

Any advice on where to start for what I'm looking for specifically? 

Listen to Teddy.  This isn't the place.  The church has 80,000 missionaries who would love to chat with you in person or online.  Contact them to learn more at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/lp/church-lesson/short

[Pyreaux]

I think for an open-minded Bible-reader, the most rewarding path to a "Gold Pill" moment (a term about how one awakens to the possibility the LDS church could be right, not being converted per se) is to point to certain Christian Bible scholars you can read alongside LDS scholars. These are people who attempt to reconstruct the "Royal Temple cult", a fairly new way to make sense of some of the Royal Psalms, identifying proto-Christianity bones buried in the Jewish texts, as I feel it gives the fullest explanation of the psalm imagery, Christianity, by extension LDS, as these ideas are deeply rooted in antiquity. These studies have become in demand among Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, and LDS audiences. So even if you never become LDS, it will not be a waste of time. In the course of studying, just ask how might the Royal Cult manifest today, you will notice the similarities in LDS and Catholic traditions you wouldn't consider if you read the Bible only surface deep. 

Firstly, read the Royal Psalms (like Psalms 2, 24, 45, 110, and 132) maybe using a standard commentary too, and then go back and reread them after dipping into Barker or Heiser. Once you see the Davidic King as a priest, entering the Holy of Holies through a veil, surrounded by a Council of priests, and dressed in sacred vestments, you can never unsee it. Even if you don't walk into an LDS Temple, the intellectual barrier to the Restoration will be completely dismantled because you will realize that the LDS worldview is the only modern theology that actually acts out and embodies this ancient Royal Temple cult. At the very least you'll learn the concepts of the Temple weren't invented by the LDS in the 19th century; rather, they are certainly an independent reconstruction by modern people, inspired or not.

Margaret Barker - Concerning the First Temple

As a Methodist preacher and biblical scholar, Barker is the top brass for this approach.

The Great Angel is perfect at dismantling the monolithic view of ancient monotheism. She argues that the Jewish Scribes in a "Deuteronomic reform" during the Second Temple period actually stripped away or suppressed original elements of First Temple worship, including the heavenly Mother, the visible human manifestations of Yahweh as a secondary divine figure (the son of El Elyon), and the ascension rites of the High Priest. For an LDS reader, this fall of the First Temple reads exactly like a historical blueprint of a later Christian Apostasy.

Temple Theology: An Introduction, which directly connects the ancient temple rituals to the layout, robes, and cosmic architecture that feel strikingly parallel to modern LDS temple worship.

The Great High Priest: The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy shows that early Christian worship wasn't modeled after the local Jewish synagogue (which was focused on reading the Torah), but was actually a conscious restoration of the secret, esoteric rituals of the First Temple's High Priest. Pay special attention to her chapters on "The Secret Tradition" and "The Angel Priesthood." When a Bible-reader encounters the idea that Jesus taught his Apostles secret things during the 40 days after his resurrection, they think its Gnosticism. But Barker uses the Dead Sea Scrolls and early Christian liturgies to prove that a "secret temple tradition" was widely accepted in the earliest days of the Church. It completely re-contextualizes the LDS idea of temple ordinances. She details the anointing with holy oil, the sacred vestments and the concept of a secret tradition of knowledge handed down to an initiated priesthood. It makes the entire concept of an esoteric temple liturgy rooted in the priesthood completely historical.

Michael Heiser - Concerning the Divine Council

Dr. Michael Heiser was a mainstream Evangelical scholar. His work is an incredible stepping-stone.

The Divine Council webpage forcefully demonstrates from the Hebrew text (like Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32) that God rules alongside a council of divine beings (elohim: gods). He highlights that humans were intended to inherit the council seats and rule as divine sons of God. While Heiser maintains a traditional view of the Trinity, his defense of plural Elohim and human deification (theosis) completely reframes a Protestant's standard objections to the LDS doctrine of the Godhead and eternal progression.

Raphael Patai - Concerning Kingship Temple rituals and marriages

Patai’s focus on ancient Near Eastern folklore, myth, and ritual bridges the gap between historical text and actual practice.

Man and Temple Patai reconstructs the Coronation/Enthronement rituals of the Davidic kings. He shows that the King was anointed, ritually washed, given a new name, clothed in royal/priestly robes, and symbolically adopted as a "Son of God" on the throne. Reading the Royal Psalms (like Psalm 2 and Psalm 110) through this lens shows that ancient salvation wasn't just a mental belief, it was a physical, ritual drama enacted in the Temple to bring a person into the presence of God.

And The Hebrew Goddess, is the reference Barker uses in her work on a Heavenly Mother. There are like 32 other books.

Howard Schwartz - The Ancient Judaism Lore

The Tree of Souls demonstrates that the concepts found in the LDS Restoration are part of a massive, ancient stream of esoteric Jewish memory. When a Protestant reads about things like the garment of Adam, sacred stones (Urim and Thummim), or multi-tiered heavens, they often assume these are modern inventions. Schwartz shows that Midrashic lore is saturated with these concepts. It normalizes the specific texture of Latter-day Saint restoration theology.

Michael Satlow - Concerning Polygamy

Jewish Marriage in Antiquity traces the evolution of Jewish marriage from the biblical period through the Second Temple and Rabbinic eras. He establishes clearly that polygamy was entirely legal, normal, and unquestioned throughout the Old Testament era and well into the New Testament period. Monogamy only became the strict standard for Western Jews, much later, due to Greco-Roman cultural assimilation and imperial law. 

The Davidic King married (in the temple, I say) multiple wives and princesses (during the yearly Kingship Festival, as part of a re-coronation, I say) to build a massive, interconnected royal house that bound the kingdoms together in a web of covenant relationships. This is exactly how early Latter-day Saints viewed plural marriage, not just as modern families, but as a dynastic, dynasty of sealing, designed to link all of humanity back into a single, massive, royal patriarchal chain.

Edited June 21 by Pyreaux

[rosenotes]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As you likely already realize, this discussion board is not the place for you to learn about the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from a faithful believer’s perspective. The problem is that there are many participants on this board who are either embittered former members who are obsessed with criticizing the church nonstop, or unbelieving non-members who are ill equipped to help you learn the teachings of the church from a faithful, spiritually inspired perspective.

As I previously suggested, your best bet is to prayerfully read the Book of Mormon, and also perform deep dive research utilizing the “Libraries” option on the official church website. Another very helpful option would be to find a local congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ on Latter-Day Saints in your area where you will be warmly received and taught by faithful members. By attending church services you will not only be taking advantage of another resource to help familiarize you with the doctrines of the church, but you will also be able discern for yourself whether or not the religion of the Latter-Day Saints bears discernible good fruit in the lives of its faithful members. All the best to you in your quest for truth!

Thank you so much, again 😊 I'm excited to learn more. I did notice the varying perspectives lol but that's ok. I understand. I didn't always have the best experiences with religion myself.

[rosenotes]

8 hours ago, gopher said:

Listen to Teddy.  This isn't the place.  The church has 80,000 missionaries who would love to chat with you in person or online.  Contact them to learn more at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/lp/church-lesson/short

Thank you 😊 I enjoy reading different opinions and perspectives anyway, so it's not big deal. I appreciate all of the suggestions and advice y'all have shared with me already. 

[rosenotes]

8 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I think for an open-minded Bible-reader, the most rewarding path to a "Gold Pill" moment (a term about how one awakens to the possibility the LDS church could be right, not being converted per se) is to point to certain Christian Bible scholars you can read alongside LDS scholars. These are people who attempt to reconstruct the "Royal Temple cult", a fairly new way to make sense of some of the Royal Psalms, identifying proto-Christianity bones buried in the Jewish texts, as I feel it gives the fullest explanation of the psalm imagery, Christianity, by extension LDS, as these ideas are deeply rooted in antiquity. These studies have become in demand among Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, and LDS audiences. So even if you never become LDS, it will not be a waste of time. In the course of studying, just ask how might the Royal Cult manifest today, you will notice the similarities in LDS and Catholic traditions you wouldn't consider if you read the Bible only surface deep. 

Firstly, read the Royal Psalms (like Psalms 2, 24, 45, 110, and 132) maybe using a standard commentary too, and then go back and reread them after dipping into Barker or Heiser. Once you see the Davidic King as a priest, entering the Holy of Holies through a veil, surrounded by a Council of priests, and dressed in sacred vestments, you can never unsee it. Even if you don't walk into an LDS Temple, the intellectual barrier to the Restoration will be completely dismantled because you will realize that the LDS worldview is the only modern theology that actually acts out and embodies this ancient Royal Temple cult. At the very least you'll learn the concepts of the Temple weren't invented by the LDS in the 19th century; rather, they are certainly an independent reconstruction by modern people, inspired or not.

Margaret Barker - Concerning the First Temple

As a Methodist preacher and biblical scholar, Barker is the top brass for this approach.

The Great Angel is perfect at dismantling the monolithic view of ancient monotheism. She argues that the Jewish Scribes in a "Deuteronomic reform" during the Second Temple period actually stripped away or suppressed original elements of First Temple worship, including the heavenly Mother, the visible human manifestations of Yahweh as a secondary divine figure (the son of El Elyon), and the ascension rites of the High Priest. For an LDS reader, this fall of the First Temple reads exactly like a historical blueprint of a later Christian Apostasy.

Temple Theology: An Introduction, which directly connects the ancient temple rituals to the layout, robes, and cosmic architecture that feel strikingly parallel to modern LDS temple worship.

The Great High Priest: The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy shows that early Christian worship wasn't modeled after the local Jewish synagogue (which was focused on reading the Torah), but was actually a conscious restoration of the secret, esoteric rituals of the First Temple's High Priest. Pay special attention to her chapters on "The Secret Tradition" and "The Angel Priesthood." When a Bible-reader encounters the idea that Jesus taught his Apostles secret things during the 40 days after his resurrection, they think its Gnosticism. But Barker uses the Dead Sea Scrolls and early Christian liturgies to prove that a "secret temple tradition" was widely accepted in the earliest days of the Church. It completely re-contextualizes the LDS idea of temple ordinances. She details the anointing with holy oil, the sacred vestments and the concept of a secret tradition of knowledge handed down to an initiated priesthood. It makes the entire concept of an esoteric temple liturgy rooted in the priesthood completely historical.

Michael Heiser - Concerning the Divine Council

Dr. Michael Heiser was a mainstream Evangelical scholar. His work is an incredible stepping-stone.

The Divine Council webpage forcefully demonstrates from the Hebrew text (like Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32) that God rules alongside a council of divine beings (elohim: gods). He highlights that humans were intended to inherit the council seats and rule as divine sons of God. While Heiser maintains a traditional view of the Trinity, his defense of plural Elohim and human deification (theosis) completely reframes a Protestant's standard objections to the LDS doctrine of the Godhead and eternal progression.

Raphael Patai - Concerning Kingship Temple rituals and marriages

Patai’s focus on ancient Near Eastern folklore, myth, and ritual bridges the gap between historical text and actual practice.

Man and Temple Patai reconstructs the Coronation/Enthronement rituals of the Davidic kings. He shows that the King was anointed, ritually washed, given a new name, clothed in royal/priestly robes, and symbolically adopted as a "Son of God" on the throne. Reading the Royal Psalms (like Psalm 2 and Psalm 110) through this lens shows that ancient salvation wasn't just a mental belief, it was a physical, ritual drama enacted in the Temple to bring a person into the presence of God.

And The Hebrew Goddess, is the reference Barker uses in her work on a Heavenly Mother. There are like 32 other books.

Howard Schwartz - The Ancient Judaism Lore

The Tree of Souls demonstrates that the concepts found in the LDS Restoration are part of a massive, ancient stream of esoteric Jewish memory. When a Protestant reads about things like the garment of Adam, sacred stones (Urim and Thummim), or multi-tiered heavens, they often assume these are modern inventions. Schwartz shows that Midrashic lore is saturated with these concepts. It normalizes the specific texture of Latter-day Saint restoration theology.

Michael Satlow - Concerning Polygamy

Jewish Marriage in Antiquity traces the evolution of Jewish marriage from the biblical period through the Second Temple and Rabbinic eras. He establishes clearly that polygamy was entirely legal, normal, and unquestioned throughout the Old Testament era and well into the New Testament period. Monogamy only became the strict standard for Western Jews, much later, due to Greco-Roman cultural assimilation and imperial law. 

The Davidic King married (in the temple, I say) multiple wives and princesses (during the yearly Kingship Festival, as part of a re-coronation, I say) to build a massive, interconnected royal house that bound the kingdoms together in a web of covenant relationships. This is exactly how early Latter-day Saints viewed plural marriage, not just as modern families, but as a dynastic, dynasty of sealing, designed to link all of humanity back into a single, massive, royal patriarchal chain.

That's very interesting. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that LDS teachings are more about restoring ancient practices rather than creating new ones? That's actually something I'm really interested in learning more about. Thank you for taking the to write all of that 😊 That's something I was very much looking for. Which book would you recommend I start with? 

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, rosenotes said:

That's very interesting. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that LDS teachings are more about restoring ancient practices rather than creating new ones? That's actually something I'm really interested in learning more about. Thank you for taking the to write all of that 😊 That's something I was very much looking for. Which book would you recommend I start with? 

Those are free links, so you can start looking at pages right now. Whichever subject piques your interest the most, they are all their own "rabbit hole", though people who say "rabbit hole" use it to deter people.

If you don't yet know the questions to ask yourself, there are overarching questions, like is Christianity new? Or something very specific, like how does the Masoretic Texts differ from the Dead Sea Scrolls? Does the Masoretic Jews delete Christian prooftexts concerning the Sons of God, Elyon and the Messiah? Is the Book of Enoch ancient? Who is "Wisdom" in Psalms 8, or "Elyon" in Genesis 14 and Deuteronomy 32? Who are "the gods" of Psalm 82? Why does Exodus say Israel "saw God" while Deuteronomy says they "only heard a voice"? Why didn't King Josiah ever know about Deuteronomy? Why did no king ever obey Deuteronomy before? How come when Josiah reforms the temple based on Deuteronomy promising prosperity, Josiah is killed, Jerusalem falls and the Temple razed? What is magic? Who are the sons of God? What is a Son of Man? Was Ezra a good dude, or is Malachi and Jesus critical about mass divorce and (genetically) pure priests in the temple? You'll get a different answer from these scholars than you'd ever hear from a theologian from a Bible diploma mill, I tell ya. 

Margaret Barker spent her entire career answering many of these.

The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God by Margaret Barker addresses questions about Genesis 14, Deuteronomy 32, and Psalm 82 head-on. Barker meticulously proves that the oldest layers of the Bible didn't teach strict, monolithic monotheism. They taught that El Elyon (God the Most High) was the Father, and Yahweh was His chief Son, the "Second God" who was the God of Israel.

It proves that when early Christians said Jesus was "the Lord", the "Son of the Most High God", they weren't inventing a new unique person, they were identifying Jesus as Yahweh, the Second God of the First Temple.

But as female Bible fan she'll introduce you to a concept that will may blow your mind. Like the divine Lady Wisdom / Asherah of the First Temple in the Bible.

[rosenotes]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Those are free links, so you can start looking at pages right now. Whichever subject piques your interest the most, they are all their own "rabbit hole", though people who say "rabbit hole" use it to deter people.

If you don't yet know the questions to ask yourself, there are overarching questions, like is Christianity new? Or something very specific, like how does the Masoretic Texts differ from the Dead Sea Scrolls? Does the Masoretic Jews delete Christian prooftexts concerning the Sons of God, Elyon and the Messiah? Is the Book of Enoch ancient? Who is "Wisdom" in Psalms 8, or "Elyon" in Genesis 14 and Deuteronomy 32? Who are "the gods" of Psalm 82? Why does Exodus say Israel "saw God" while Deuteronomy says they "only heard a voice"? Why didn't King Josiah ever know about Deuteronomy? Why did no king ever obey Deuteronomy before? How come when Josiah reforms the temple based on Deuteronomy promising prosperity, Josiah is killed, Jerusalem falls and the Temple razed? What is magic? Who are the sons of God? What is a Son of Man? Was Ezra a good dude, or is Malachi and Jesus critical about mass divorce and (genetically) pure priests in the temple? You'll get a different answer from these scholars than you'd ever hear from a theologian from a Bible diploma mill, I tell ya. 

Margaret Barker spent her entire career answering many of these.

The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God by Margaret Barker addresses questions about Genesis 14, Deuteronomy 32, and Psalm 82 head-on. Barker meticulously proves that the oldest layers of the Bible didn't teach strict, monolithic monotheism. They taught that El Elyon (God the Most High) was the Father, and Yahweh was His chief Son, the "Second God" who was the God of Israel.

It proves that when early Christians said Jesus was "the Lord", the "Son of the Most High God", they weren't inventing a new unique person, they were identifying Jesus as Yahweh, the Second God of the First Temple.

But as female Bible fan she'll introduce you to a concept that will may blow your mind. Like the divine Lady Wisdom / Asherah of the First Temple in the Bible.

Thank you! I didn't even realize those were links, until you said something lol

[Calm]

On 6/19/2026 at 11:44 AM, rosenotes said:

Also, I'm a supporter of plural marriage, which sort of adds to my skepticism of modern church teachings. 

May I ask why you are a supporter of plural marriage?

Speaking purely practically without any spiritual implications….

I can see its usefulness in cultures where women were not supported in independence and were more often treated like children and the most common and only at times safety net was family, but when there are options for financial independence I don’t see the necessity unless a woman desires to marry and have children and there are truly no single compatible single men willing to marry her.  The reverse might be true as well, so logically it seems appropriate in this day and age where we have dna testing to determine parenthood, that if a man has no compatibility with any single women and he wants to marry and be a father, plural marriage with a woman who has a husband already makes as much sense.

Edited June 21 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, rosenotes said:

Thank you! I didn't even realize those were links, until you said something lol

Well, maybe then pair this Christian scholarship with Latter-day Saint scholarship.

Hugh Nibley

The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment or Temple and Cosmos

Hugh Nibley was top LDS scholarship long before Margaret Barker published The Great Angel, Nibley could read Egyptian, Hebrew and Greek and was scouring ancient Egyptian, Jewish, and early Christian texts to prove the existence of an ancient temple liturgy. He made an exhaustive book about early Christian and Egyptian initiation rites. Focusing on washing, anointing, being clothed in sacred garments, and passing through a veil and shows that early Christians actually practiced these specific physical rituals.  

David J. Larsen

From Dust to Exalted Crown: Royal and Temple Themes Common to the Psalms and the Dead Sea Scrolls

David Larsen is an LDS biblical scholar who explicitly specializes in the Royal Psalms and the Royal Temple Cult. He has written extensively on how the enthronement rituals of the Davidic kings tie directly into ancient temple theology. Larsen directly bridges the academic world of Raphael Patai with LDS theology. 

Jeffrey M. Bradshaw

Temple Themes in the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood or God's Image and Likeness 

Bradshaw is hyper-focused on the literal structure of ancient cosmic journeys, the Divine Council, and how humanity is invited into that council. This pairs well with Michael Heiser’s The Unseen Realm. While Heiser shows that the Old Testament is saturated with a "Divine Council" of Elohim, Bradshaw takes the next step and uses LDS scripture to show how the Temple endowment is the ritual path for humans to enter that Council, be clothed in royal vestments, and inherit seats as divine sons and daughters of God.

Edited June 21 by Pyreaux

[rosenotes]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

May I ask why you are a supporter of plural marriage?

Speaking purely practically without any spiritual implications….

I can see its usefulness in cultures where women were not supported in independence and were more often treated like children and the most common and only at times safety net was family, but when there are options for financial independence I don’t see the necessity unless a woman desires to marry and have children and there are truly no single compatible single men willing to marry her.  The reverse might be true as well, so logically it seems appropriate in this day and age where we have dna testing to determine parenthood, that if a man has no compatibility with any single women and he wants to marry and be a father, plural marriage with a woman who has a husband already makes as much sense.

Women have always supported themselves in one way or another. They may not have had the same ownership rights but they have always played important roles in society. I wouldn't say that plural marriage was or is ever necessary. Throughout history only a small percentage of people lived plural marriage to begin with. I simply support people's right to chose and may even live it myself someday, if the Lord sees fit. I believe that both monogamous and plural marriages are biblically acceptable. Societal advancements, issues and opinions don't really affect my opinion on the subject one way or another. Actually, come to think of it, I have seen more positive advantages to plural marriage in that regard than negative. I feel as though women have more options in plural marriage. 

To answer your question about why I don't support multiple husbands. My understanding is that the biblical definition of adultery involves a man sleeping with another man's wife. I'm fairly sure that would constitute adultery.

I've been friends with women over the years who live plural marriage, some good and some bad. I've seen both the benefits and the downsides. To me, whether in marriage lasts or fails isn't determined by whether the marriage is monogamous or plural. It usually comes down to the personality traits of the people involved. As with most things in life. 

*Can anyone tell me how I can edit my comments? I see typos I'd like to be able to correct.

[rosenotes]

34 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Well, maybe then pair this Christian scholarship with Latter-day Saint scholarship.

Hugh Nibley

The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment or Temple and Cosmos

Hugh Nibley was top LDS scholarship long before Margaret Barker published The Great Angel, Nibley could read Egyptian, Hebrew and Greek and was scouring ancient Egyptian, Jewish, and early Christian texts to prove the existence of an ancient temple liturgy. He made an exhaustive book about early Christian and Egyptian initiation rites. Focusing on washing, anointing, being clothed in sacred garments, and passing through a veil and shows that early Christians actually practiced these specific physical rituals.  

David J. Larsen

From Dust to Exalted Crown: Royal and Temple Themes Common to the Psalms and the Dead Sea Scrolls

David Larsen is an LDS biblical scholar who explicitly specializes in the Royal Psalms and the Royal Temple Cult. He has written extensively on how the enthronement rituals of the Davidic kings tie directly into ancient temple theology. Larsen directly bridges the academic world of Raphael Patai with LDS theology. 

Jeffrey M. Bradshaw

Temple Themes in the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood or God's Image and Likeness 

Bradshaw is hyper-focused on the literal structure of ancient cosmic journeys, the Divine Council, and how humanity is invited into that council. This pairs well with Michael Heiser’s The Unseen Realm. While Heiser shows that the Old Testament is saturated with a "Divine Council" of Elohim, Bradshaw takes the next step and uses LDS scripture to show how the Temple endowment is the ritual path for humans to enter that Council, be clothed in royal vestments, and inherit seats as divine sons and daughters of God.

Thank you, once again ❤️

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rosenotes said:

Women have always supported themselves in one way or another. T

And unmarried (single or widowed, childless or not) women on their own have often been a large section of the poor.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rosenotes said:

Women have always supported themselves in one way or another. They may not have had the same ownership rights but they have always played important roles in society. I wouldn't say that plural marriage was or is ever necessary. Throughout history only a small percentage of people lived plural marriage to begin with. I simply support people's right to chose and may even live it myself someday, if the Lord sees fit. I believe that both monogamous and plural marriages are biblically acceptable. Societal advancements, issues and opinions don't really affect my opinion on the subject one way or another. Actually, come to think of it, I have seen more positive advantages to plural marriage in that regard than negative. I feel as though women have more options in plural marriage. 

To answer your question about why I don't support multiple husbands. My understanding is that the biblical definition of adultery involves a man sleeping with another man's wife. I'm fairly sure that would constitute adultery.

I've been friends with women over the years who live plural marriage, some good and some bad. I've seen both the benefits and the downsides. To me, whether in marriage lasts or fails isn't determined by whether the marriage is monogamous or plural. It usually comes down to the personality traits of the people involved. As with most things in life. 

*Can anyone tell me how I can edit my comments? I see typos I'd like to be able to correct.

When you get to 25 posts, you can edit your remarks.

[Calm]

Just now, Calm said:

I feel as though women have more options in plural marriage. 

Until they have children at least.