I don't mean to start a politics topic, but this would be a transgender topic. Will we be able to save them?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, longview said:

You made a shocking post that implied that Charlie Kirk was an extremist. You are not playing fair.

No, he made it clear someone else saw Kirk as extremist.  Is that not common knowledge?

Quote

the Jewish affiliated Anti-defamation League listed Kirk's Turning Point USA as an extremist group beginning in 2019

Quote

Ben is engaging in character assassination of a highly regarded peacemaker. 

So you think Ben is lying about his explanation for posting as he did?

One can recognize that others see Kirk as an extremist without seeing him as an extremist oneself.

I have that situation in my home, my daughter sees him as pretty extreme…not sure how extreme because I am not feeling the need to get the nitty gritty details here.  I do not see him as extreme.  And btw, there are a lot of things I think my daughter gets right, so I ask her opinion and knowledge about them, but I also know she has biases that push her to see extremism when it’s not there in some cases.  So just because Ben pointed out the ADL has had a decent reputation for identifying extremism, doesn’t mean he automatically agrees with them in every case.

You are in a similar situation.  You acknowledge (and even assume without evidence in some cases) that others see Kirk as extreme where you most definitely do not.  Why not give Ben the same allowance?

Edited October 3, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

You made a shocking post that implied that Charlie Kirk was an extremist. You are not playing fair.

Some Charlie Kirk quotes:

“We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor. We need it immediately.” (And people suggest he wasn’t down with Nazi rhetoric?)

“The great replacement strategy, which is well under way every single day in our southern border, is a strategy to replace white rural America with something different.” (The White race as conceived of by ‘scientific racism’ must lead?) 

“Islam is the sword the left is using to slit the throat of America.” (Those crazy transgender supporting Muslims….)

“There is no separation of church and state. It’s a fabrication, it’s a fiction, it’s not in the constitution. It’s made up by secular humanists.” (The phrase was coined by the evil secular humanist Thomas Jefferson)

“If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.” (White people are assumed to be competent by default, everyone else is suspect)

“Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that’s a fact. It’s happening more and more.” (Note: Not actually a fact)

“You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person’s slot to go be taken somewhat seriously.” (Vile)

“America was at its peak when we halted immigration for 40 years and we dropped our foreign-born percentage to its lowest level ever. We should be unafraid to do that.” (The good old days when we were turning away Jews and other refugees from the Second World War? When we were shoving Japanese Americans into camps out of paranoia? Not exactly our proudest moment. Also we didn’t halt immigration, just severely curtailed it and it was designed to allow in pretty much only white Western Europeans. Roosevelt was not a fan of this)

Those are pretty extremist and filled with white supremacist dogwhistles.

1 hour ago, longview said:

I am surprised by your demand. Are you NOT aware of the inscriptions Tyler made on his bullets?

He was trolling with the bullet inscriptions. Messing with everyone’s heads. That is the new trend.

Anyone else remember back in the 80s and 90s when the news generally wouldn’t talk about the identity of shooters to avoid people doing it for the fame? Now we pour over their manifestos and pick out their life details hoping the shooter is in the other tribe because somehow that proves……something. I liked the old way better.

1 hour ago, longview said:

Ben is engaging in character assassination of a highly regarded peacemaker. His efforts were to invite as many of the students to have a sincere exchange of perspectives. His persona exuded graciousness and good will. Ben's shocking assertions of extremism is so baseless that it requires him to justify the slander.

He was not a peacemaker. He did not seek a sincere exchange of views. He was very snarky. He was adversarial. And when you seem snarky to me that is saying something.

He was a guy over 30 still out challenging college students to debates and seeking to humiliate his opponents. He did not exude graciousness and good will. He did not seek to learn or understand. He sought to win in verbal debates which are a terrible way of convincing anyone of anything. The kinds of debates he sought were about rhetorical wordplay and not discussing facts and trying to dig deep into topics. He was an internet debater that sought to win with quips and shallow rhetorical victories.

He did not turn into a prince of peace at the moment of death. He sought to divide people and to enflame the ‘faithful’ against their enemies. He didn’t deserve to die for it but being killed also doesn’t mean we have to pretend he was someone in life that he wasn’t.

Edited October 3, 2025 by The Nehor

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Some Charlie Kirk quotes:

“We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor. We need it immediately.” (And people suggest he wasn’t down with Nazi rhetoric?)

“The great replacement strategy, which is well under way every single day in our southern border, is a strategy to replace white rural America with something different.” (The White race as conceived of by ‘scientific racism’ must lead?) 

“Islam is the sword the left is using to slit the throat of America.” (Those crazy transgender supporting Muslims….)

“There is no separation of church and state. It’s a fabrication, it’s a fiction, it’s not in the constitution. It’s made up by secular humanists.” (The phrase was coined by the evil secular humanist Thomas Jefferson)

“If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.” (White people are assumed to be competent by default, everyone else is suspect)

“Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that’s a fact. It’s happening more and more.” (Note: Not actually a fact)

“You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person’s slot to go be taken somewhat seriously.” (Vile)

“America was at its peak when we halted immigration for 40 years and we dropped our foreign-born percentage to its lowest level ever. We should be unafraid to do that.” (The good old days when we were turning away Jews and other refugees from the Second World War? When we were shoving Japanese Americans into camps out of paranoia? Not exactly our proudest moment. Also we didn’t halt immigration, just severely curtailed it and it was designed to allow in pretty much only white Western Europeans. Roosevelt was not a fan of this)

Those are pretty extremist and filled with white supremacist dogwhistles.

He was trolling with the bullet inscriptions. Messing with everyone’s heads. That is the new trend.

Anyone else remember back in the 80s and 90s when the news generally wouldn’t talk about the identity of shooters to avoid people doing it for the fame? Now we pour over their manifestos and pick out their life details hoping the shooter is in the other tribe because somehow that proves……something. I liked the old way better.

He was not a peacemaker. He did not seek a sincere exchange of views. He was very snarky. He was adversarial. And when you seem snarky to me that is saying something.

He was a guy over 30 still out challenging college students to debates and seeking to humiliate his opponents. He did not exude graciousness and good will. He did not seek to learn or understand. He sought to win in verbal debates which are a terrible way of convincing anyone of anything. The kinds of debates he sought were about rhetorical wordplay and not discussing facts and trying to dig deep into topics. He was an internet debater that sought to win with quips and shallow rhetorical victories.

He did not turn into a prince of peace at the moment of death. He sought to divide people and to enflame the ‘faithful’ against their enemies. He didn’t deserve to die for it but being killed also doesn’t mean we have to pretend he was someone in life that he wasn’t.

Way to cherry pick quotes and post them without context or clarification. 👏🏻

I think I'm done seeing your posts for a bit.

[The Nehor]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

Way to cherry pick quotes and post them without context or clarification. 👏🏻

I think I'm done seeing your posts for a bit.

The context doesn’t help on any of those but you are welcome to post more comprehensive quotes if you believe it would help. Why would it need clarification though?

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, longview said:

I am surprised by your demand. Are you NOT aware of the inscriptions Tyler made on his bullets?

Let's see ... "If your read this, you are gay" was on one. The lyrics to the song Bella Ciao was on another. A third read "Hey fascist, catch!". 

Now, let me repeat what I asked for - since you aren't answering my question:

6 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

What is "Antifa radical speech"?

You introduced this idea. Tell me what you mean by it. 

1 hour ago, longview said:

Ben is engaging in character assassination of a highly regarded peacemaker. His efforts were to invite as many of the students to have a sincere exchange of perspectives. His persona exuded graciousness and good will. Ben's shocking assertions of extremism is so baseless that it requires him to justify the slander.

 And now we run into this problem here. Because of course, once you make someone a martyr (as you are doing here) anything that I say that could be construed as going against your mythology would likely be considered by you to be a character assassination, wouldn't it. I think that I will simply bow out of this conversation at this point. I think that your plan is simply to attack anyone who disagrees with you - there is no rational exit strategy.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And people suggest he wasn’t down with Nazi rhetoric?

Huh?

Quote

The Nuremberg trials were held by the Allies against representatives of the defeated Nazi Germany

 

Edited October 3, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

White people are assumed to be competent by default

White males…

Quote

I liked the old way better.

Me too.

Edited October 3, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Huh?

He is saying that medical staff that support gender affirming care are war criminals on par with fascists, particularly Nazis.

 

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

White males…

True.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

He is saying that medical staff that support gender affirming care are war criminals on par with fascists, particularly Nazis.

I thought you meant Nazi style rhetoric, which is sometimes seen in white supremacist language.  You meant labeling others as like Nazis.  In this case he’s possibly referencing doctors who experimented on concentration camp prisoners, including children like Mengele did though he skipped town and eluded capture and lived a long, sounds like pretty comfortable life without having ever been brought to justice unfortunately.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S235245291520014X

Edited October 4, 2025 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

I did want to add one thing before I leave this thread - because I actually have no expectation that @longview will answer the question. A while back, the LDS Church put up a web page celebrating a radical antifa individual: Helmuth Günther Hübener. After all, antifa means anti-fascist. And Hübener was executed by the Nazis for his radical anti-fascism. The thing is, most of us are opposed to fascism. We are (as Americans) for the most part as anti-fascist as we are anti-communist. And, if we were suddenly finding ourselves in a nation doing what Germany was doing to the Jews, I would hope that most of us would be radicalized to oppose that fascism - at least in our speech. This whole thing comes across on much the same level as the wokeness issue. The language gets used as a trigger label - but it is largely empty of meaning. Antifa:

Quote

In 2020, Politico reported that "the term [antifa] is a potent one for conservatives" because "[i]t's the violent distillation of everything they fear could come to pass in an all-out culture war. And it's a quick way to brand part of the opposition." Alexander Reid Ross, who teaches at Portland State University, argues that the popularization of the term antifa was a reaction to the popularization of the term alt-right, "to the point where [antifa] simply describes people who are anti-fascist or people who are against racism and are willing to protest against it."

And, I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being against racism and willing to protest against racism. The challenge has been, in recent years, that the alt-right movement has embraced fascism. Which is to say to them fascism isn't something to be despised (as most of us do) but something to be embraced. And to label someone as antifa is in fact to label someone as being against the movement - against white nationalism. Radical antifa speech then is speech that is against the white nationalist movement. To be antifa in this sense is not the slur that the alt-right uses it as, but can be seen as a badge of honor for those who oppose the alt-right. This is no different from progressives who embrace the label of being woke - because of what it has come to mean. When these labels are used in discussions like this, they never really achieve much - because they are viewed so differently by those on opposite sides of the ideological fence. What is clear is that when discussions use these terms as weapons, the goal is not communication, but to create a visceral reaction in their audience. And @longview can have the last word.

Edited October 4, 2025 by Benjamin McGuire

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I thought you meant Nazi style rhetoric, which is sometimes seen in white supremacist language.  You meant labeling others as like Nazis.  In this case he’s possibly referencing doctors who experimented on concentration camp prisoners, including children like Mengele did though he skipped town and eluded capture and lived a long, sounds like pretty comfortable life without having ever been brought to justice unfortunately.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S235245291520014X

The irony is that there were people doing providing what we would now call gender affirming healthcare in Germany in the 1930s. A gay Jewish doctor (Magnus Hirschfeld) opened a clinic in 1919 to study sexuality. He was way ahead of his time. He basically discovered “situational” and “conditional” homosexuality and came up with bisexuality. He acknowledged an equivalent of non-binary and gender fluid people. He understood that transgender people could have a sexuality independent being transgender (still a stumbling block for many today).

By 1930 he was providing pioneering gender-affirming surgeries. He prescribed hormone therapy. There was an extensive library of notes and research information they collected.

The place was a refuge for queer people while the clinic also served the larger community with information about sexual health and contraception. He employed several transgender people who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. He created and provided legally valid “transvestite” medical cards that kept some of his patients for being arrested.

Hirschfeld was out of the country in early 1933 when the Nazis took power. They began their campaign to eliminate those whose ‘lives weren’t worth living’. His associate and romantic partner fled with what he could but the institute was looted, the irreplaceable library of notes and rare books on sexuality was burned and the German newsreels triumphantly announced that the ‘intellectual garbage’ was being destroyed. It was one of the first major moves. It made strategic sense. Start with the people almost everyone was suspicious of and didn’t like. Once you can convince people that ‘the worst people’ don’t deserve rights it is very easy to expand that category.

Hirschfeld’s likeness was a staple in Nazi propaganda as a kind of ultimate undesirable, a homosexual Jew. 

Last time the gender-affirming healthcare providers were the enemies of the fascists. They weren’t the Mengeles. The Mengeles were the ones imprisoning their patients and experimenting on them.

Article on the clinic: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/

Edited October 4, 2025 by The Nehor

[Raingirl]

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Way to cherry pick quotes and post them without context or clarification. 👏🏻

I think I'm done seeing your posts for a bit.

Actually, he could have posted many, many more quotes that were just as bad, if not worse.   He’s showing the truth of who Kirk was.  Death did not erase his actions, and turn him into a saint. 

[Calm]

20 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Way to cherry pick quotes and post them without context or clarification. 👏🏻

I think I'm done seeing your posts for a bit.

Think of it as an opportunity to provide context, clarification, or positive quotes that counterbalance the problematic ones.  It’s giving you a great excuse to show why you see him as a great man.  Just complaining about the lack of context without providing it is likely to leave the impression context doesn’t actually help, so your only option is to be dismissive.

Btw, Nehor, it would be more persuasive imo to provide links to transcripts where he said these things to show the greater context and that such were his actual positions. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Think of it as an opportunity to provide context, clarification, or positive quotes that counterbalance the problematic ones.  It’s giving you a great excuse to show why you see him as a great man.  Just complaining about the lack of context without providing it is likely to leave the impression context doesn’t actually help, so your only option is to be dismissive.

Btw, Nehor, it would be more persuasive imo to provide links to transcripts where he said these things to show the greater context and that such were his actual positions. 

I've already shared videos describing the misinformation campaign against Charlie and was told, "I'm not clicking on that!" by the same person who ran to The Nehor's defense - so she has now been blocked also.

Anybody who cares to a dive into it, can find videos by:

* Brandon Tatum (Officer Tatum)

* Terrance K. Williams 

* Rob Smith

* Blexit

Edited October 4, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[longview]

3 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Actually, he could have posted many, many more quotes that were just as bad, if not worse.   He’s showing the truth of who Kirk was.  Death did not erase his actions, and turn him into a saint. 

On the contrary, there is now a massive explosion of applications for Turning Point chapters across this nation and around the world. In the TENS of thousands ! ! ! God bless the memory of Kirk and his gracious peacemaker efforts.

Up with sound education free of communist indoctrination. Down with surgical mutilation and chemical castration of children.

Up with Constitutional principles. Down with demonization of the founding fathers and Western Civilization.

Up with E Pluribus Unum. Down with fake divisiveness and the countless classes of oppressors and oppressed (all generated from the evil communist dialectical materialism, the false narrative of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis).

Up with moral character and protection of the basic unit, the family. Down with anything goes, no hard truths, no restraints for hedonism.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, longview said:

On the contrary, there is now a massive explosion of applications for Turning Point chapters across this nation and around the world. In the TENS of thousands ! ! ! God bless the memory of Kirk and his gracious peacemaker efforts.

Up with sound education free of communist indoctrination. Down with surgical mutilation and chemical castration of children.

Up with Constitutional principles. Down with demonization of the founding fathers and Western Civilization.

Up with E Pluribus Unum. Down with fake divisiveness and the countless classes of oppressors and oppressed (all generated from the evil communist dialectical materialism, the false narrative of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis).

Up with moral character and protection of the basic unit, the family. Down with anything goes, no hard truths, no restraints for hedonism.

💯👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I've already shared videos describing the misinformation campaign against Charlie and was told, "I'm not clicking on that!" by the same person who ran to The Nehor's defense - so she has now been blocked also.

Anybody who cares to a dive into it, can find videos by:

* Brandon Tatum (Officer Tatum)

* Terrance K. Williams 

* Rob Smith

* Blexit

Transcripts of what he actually said are much easier to access.  Asking someone to wade through a video, not even providing timestamps to the relevant part isn’t reasonable in this type of conversation.  You are asking everyone else to invest 15 minutes, 30, an hour possibly when you won’t take the time, won’t invest the effort yourself.  And they aren’t committed to proving the quote wrong where you supposedly are.  

Refusing to take the time…whether to criticize or defend with accurate, detailed info indicates someone doesn’t care that much to me, so why should I bother myself to engage the material?

Edited October 4, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Transcripts of what he actually said are much easier to access.  Asking someone to wade through a video, not even providing timestamps to the relevant part isn’t reasonable in this type of conversation.  You are asking everyone else to invest 15 minutes, 30, an hour possibly when you won’t take the time, won’t invest the effort yourself.  And they aren’t committed to proving the quote wrong where you supposedly are.  

Refusing to take the time…whether to criticize or defend with accurate, detailed info indicates someone doesn’t care that much to me, so why should I bother myself to engage the material?

They are short videos showing the context beyond the clipped version of his quote and/or sharing personal interactions with Charlie.

BTW, everyone I listed is black and at least one his gay.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

They are short videos showing the context beyond the clipped version of his quote and/or sharing personal interactions with Charlie.

BTW, everyone I listed is black and at least one his gay.

 

It is relatively easy to copy paste a transcript of a YouTube.

[Stargazer]

On 9/29/2025 at 4:22 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

The fact that this is all you got out of that comment speaks volumes.

Volumes? Here's your volume:

I didn't get anything else out of it because I didn't read it. Calling someone's idea idiotic right out of the starting gate does not tend to engender feelings of goodwill or help build a desire to open one's heart to the accuser's thoughts on the matter. 

You'll pardon me if I have decided not to participate in this particular conversation any further. Not because of you, precisely, but because after all the senseless violence going on I am finding it hard to approach it with sufficient dispassion. For example, this post grew to several hundred words before I decided I had had enough of the whole thing. 

 

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, longview said:

On the contrary, there is now a massive explosion of applications for Turning Point chapters across this nation and around the world. In the TENS of thousands ! ! ! God bless the memory of Kirk and his gracious peacemaker efforts.

Up with sound education free of communist indoctrination. Down with surgical mutilation and chemical castration of children.

Up with Constitutional principles. Down with demonization of the founding fathers and Western Civilization.

Up with E Pluribus Unum. Down with fake divisiveness and the countless classes of oppressors and oppressed (all generated from the evil communist dialectical materialism, the false narrative of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis).

Up with moral character and protection of the basic unit, the family. Down with anything goes, no hard truths, no restraints for hedonism.

It's very sad you worship a pedophile and yet say nonsense like this

Let me guess you are a driver for Access Hollywood? speaking of hedonism

[Benjamin McGuire]

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't get anything else out of it because I didn't read it. Calling someone's idea idiotic right out of the starting gate does not tend to engender feelings of goodwill or help build a desire to open one's heart to the accuser's thoughts on the matter. 

Do you think that people sometimes have idiotic ideas? Perhaps you could share with me a different word I could have used that would have encouraged you to read something that you disagreed with?

[longview]

14 hours ago, Duncan said:

It's very sad you worship a pedophile and yet say nonsense like this

Let me guess you are a driver for Access Hollywood? speaking of hedonism

This is a VERY vague post with NO specifics. I have no idea what direction you are going? The only thing I can go by is that you have expressed support for liberalism and radical social engineering. Do you support the Basic Unit, the Family in accordance with the Proclamation?

[Duncan]

41 minutes ago, longview said:

This is a VERY vague post with NO specifics. I have no idea what direction you are going? The only thing I can go by is that you have expressed support for liberalism and radical social engineering. Do you support the Basic Unit, the Family in accordance with the Proclamation?

yes, as does every one else accept DJT and Musk, 6 wives, 17 kids equals "family values" no, thanks. Plus, hookers, lawsuits for molesters, Epstein files, stormy daniels, Government supported gestapo breaking up families due to racial profiling-That is "radical social engineering"

It's weird you people believe that God is against SSM yet God doesn't care one whit about the constant massacres in US society, if SSM is where God draws the lines yet allows gun violence, then who wants that God?

[The Nehor]

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

On the contrary, there is now a massive explosion of applications for Turning Point chapters across this nation and around the world. In the TENS of thousands ! ! ! God bless the memory of Kirk and his gracious peacemaker efforts.

We’ll see if those actually form and keep working. There is often a surge of enthusiasm after a tragic event but from what I hear the excitement is already cooling off.

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Up with sound education free of communist indoctrination.

Still afraid the commies are coming for you huh?

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Down with surgical mutilation and chemical castration of children.

And eating up the lies I see.

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Up with Constitutional principles.

We are currently watching the Constitution get torn to shreds.

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Down with demonization of the founding fathers and Western Civilization.

HAIL THE WHITE RACE!!!!!!!!

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Up with E Pluribus Unum.

You’re expecting unity from a group that openly hates and wants to hurt a substantial number of its own citizens. They want to declare war on the ‘enemy within’. This will not unite anyone.

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Down with fake divisiveness and the countless classes of oppressors and oppressed (all generated from the evil communist dialectical materialism, the false narrative of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis).

Ooooookay…….

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Up with moral character and protection of the basic unit, the family.

We must FORCE the people to adopt our favored lifestyle!

On 10/4/2025 at 2:17 PM, longview said:

Down with anything goes, no hard truths, no restraints for hedonism.

We must PUNISH the deviants!!! God commands it! God can’t punish sinners on his own! He needs us to do it for him!