Christ's ministry in the spirit world - D&C 138:7-51

[marineland]

After everything mentioned in verses 7-50, I had questions about #51.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection
from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with 
immortality and eternal life".

Why are all Old and New Testament saints at the time of Christ's ministry among them 
raised to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom and not to other lower parts 
of the Celestial Kingdom or to the Terrestrial Kingdom?

After the resurrection, why do they need to enter the Father's kingdom before being 
crowned with immortality?  Is this more of a ceremonial crowning than their bodies
actually being changed to immortality?

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, marineland said:

After everything mentioned in verses 7-50, I had questions about #51.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection
from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with 
immortality and eternal life".

Why are all Old and New Testament saints at the time of Christ's ministry among them 
raised to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom and not to other lower parts 
of the Celestial Kingdom or to the Terrestrial Kingdom?

After the resurrection, why do they need to enter the Father's kingdom before being 
crowned with immortality?  Is this more of a ceremonial crowning than their bodies
actually being changed to immortality?

Q1: these are always raised into the Father’s kingdom (see verse 52 also).

Q2: I see verse 5 as providing a description (eternal life in addition to immortality, which resurrection occurs prior to judgement), not delineating a sequential process.

Q3: I think “crowning” is a ceremony (ordinance or rite) as well as figurative; in either case it is just as good.

[Pyreaux]

13 hours ago, marineland said:

After everything mentioned in verses 7-50, I had questions about #51.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection
from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with 
immortality and eternal life".

Why are all Old and New Testament saints at the time of Christ's ministry among them 
raised to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom and not to other lower parts 
of the Celestial Kingdom or to the Terrestrial Kingdom?

After the resurrection, why do they need to enter the Father's kingdom before being 
crowned with immortality?  Is this more of a ceremonial crowning than their bodies
actually being changed to immortality?

D&C 138:51 is set at the Dawn (Beginning) of the First Resurrection of the Dead. It begins with Christ’s resurrection. Includes all the exalted Celestial heirs of "eternal life" first. Saints are those who had already completed their mortal probation faithfully - they had kept the covenants available to them in their own day. Then accepted the fullness of the gospel when it was declared to them in the spirit world (D&C 138:33–35). Then Christ’s resurrection opened the way for their resurrection - they are part of the “first resurrection” (Mosiah 15:21–23; Alma 40:16–17).

Just as the Biblical imagery, a “Crowning” is a scriptural metaphor for receiving eternal life (2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12), and in this passage it marks the formal bestowal of what they already received through grace.

The text does not quite say all Old and New Testament saints received the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, only that those described here did. Nothing in the passage requires that every righteous person before Christ received the same reward at that moment; it is simply focusing on this particular group who were ready to go, going first.

[marineland]

On 8/10/2025 at 12:28 AM, Pyreaux said:

The text does not quite say all Old and New Testament saints received the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, only that those described here did.

I don' see any exclusions.

[teddyaware]

On 8/9/2025 at 11:00 AM, marineland said:

After everything mentioned in verses 7-50, I had questions about #51.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection
from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with 
immortality and eternal life".

Why are all Old and New Testament saints at the time of Christ's ministry among them 
raised to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom and not to other lower parts 
of the Celestial Kingdom or to the Terrestrial Kingdom?

After the resurrection, why do they need to enter the Father's kingdom before being 
crowned with immortality?  Is this more of a ceremonial crowning than their bodies
actually being changed to immortality?

The text of Doctrine and Covenants 138 answers your first question with thoroughness and clarity. I’ll post the pertinent verses of Section 138 below and place in bold the portions that more directly help to answer your question. But I’ll at least explain that Section 138 reveals that there was a particular location in the spirit world where all those who had proved themselves worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory while in the flesh were gathered in anticipation of the glorious personal ministry of Jesus Christ to them. The fact that the Savior personally appeared only to these chosen souls after his death testifies that they were set apart from all the rest of the spirits of the departed dead due to the fact that they were fully worthy of taking part in the first resurrection and receiving the fullness of celestial glory.

In other words, after his death the Savior didn’t personally appear and minister to the spirits of all the departed dead because he actually appeared only to this select group of spirits who were fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus. You appear to be under the misimpression that after his death Christ personally ministered to spirits who were not worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory, but Doctrine and Covenants 138 testifies that he didn’t. He appeared and personally ministered only to those who had proved themselves worthy of obtaining the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom. 

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great (at the start of his vision, Joseph F Smith sees all the dead in every category of worthiness and spiritual preparedness).

12 And there were gathered together  IN ONE PLACE an innumerable company of the spirits of the just WHO HAD BEEN FAITHFUL IN THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS while they lived in mortality (President Smith now has his attention drawn to an exclusive gathering of elite spirits who, unlike all the other spirits, had proven themselves fully worthy to obtain the fullness of celestial glory);

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the.hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

Edited August 15, 2025 by teddyaware

[marineland]

On 8/14/2025 at 8:42 PM, teddyaware said:

The text of Doctrine and Covenants 138 answers your first question with thoroughness and clarity. I’ll post the pertinent verses of Section 138 below and place in bold the portions that more directly help to answer your question. But I’ll at least explain that Section 138 reveals that there was a particular location in the spirit world where all those who had proved themselves worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory while in the flesh were gathered in anticipation of the glorious personal ministry of Jesus Christ to them. The fact that the Savior personally appeared only to these chosen souls after his death testifies that they were set apart from all the rest of the spirits of the departed dead due to the fact that they were fully worthy of taking part in the first resurrection and receiving the fullness of celestial glory.

In other words, after his death the Savior didn’t personally appear and minister to the spirits of all the departed dead because he actually appeared only to this select group of spirits who were fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus. You appear to be under the misimpression that after his death Christ personally ministered to spirits who were not worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory, but Doctrine and Covenants 138 testifies that he didn’t. He appeared and personally ministered only to those who had proved themselves worthy of obtaining the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom. 

What is that particular location referred to as?

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, marineland said:

What is that particular location referred to as?

Verse 12 of of Doctrine and Covenants Section 138 informs us that only those spirits who had proven themselves worthy to receive a glorious resurrection into the fullness of celestial glory were permitted to be gathered together “IN ONE PLACE,” where they would be ministered to personally by the Savior after his death on the cross. This elite gathering of the fully worthy met with the Savior separate and apart from all the other spirits in the spirit world who had not proved themselves worthy to obtain the fullness of celestial glory.

Your confusion is due to a mistaken assumption on your part that when Christ appeared to the spirits of dead that there were some in the multitude who had not proven themselves worthy to receive the fullness of celestial glory, but this is a mistaken notion on your part. Verses 12 through 18 make it clear that the Savior only appeared and ministered to those spirits who were fully worthy to obtain the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom .

12 And there were gathered together IN ONE PLACE an innumerable company of the spirits of the just who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Edited August 21, 2025 by teddyaware

[marineland]

On 8/21/2025 at 3:18 PM, teddyaware said:

Verse 12 of of Doctrine and Covenants Section 138 informs us that only those spirits who had proven themselves worthy to receive a glorious resurrection into the fullness of celestial glory were permitted to be gathered together “IN ONE PLACE,” where they would be ministered to personally by the Savior after his death on the cross. This elite gathering of the fully worthy met with the Savior separate and apart from all the other spirits in the spirit world who had not proved themselves worthy to obtain the fullness of celestial glory.

Your confusion is due to a mistaken assumption on your part that when Christ appeared to the spirits of dead that there were some in the multitude who had not proven themselves worthy to receive the fullness of celestial glory, but this is a mistaken notion on your part. Verses 12 through 18 make it clear that the Savior only appeared and ministered to those spirits who were fully worthy to obtain the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom .

12 And there were gathered together IN ONE PLACE an innumerable company of the spirits of the just who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

If Jesus only visited those who would obtain the fullness of celestial glory then verses
20-22 apply to everyone else in the spirit world.

"But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who 
had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the
rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets
behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but
among the righteous there was peace".

There is peace only for the elite as you labelled them and the others are in darkness.

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

If Jesus only visited those who would obtain the fullness of celestial glory then verses
20-22 apply to everyone else in the spirit world.

"But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who 
had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the
rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets
behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but
among the righteous there was peace".

There is peace only for the elite as you labelled them and the others are in darkness.

In Doctrine and Covenants 76, a revelation given over 85 years earlier than Doctrine and Covenats 138, it’s revealed that there’s an intermediate state of salvation reserved for those spirits who do indeed possess testimonies of Jesus Christ but who are not valiant in their testimonies. Just because Doctrine and Covenants 138 is focused on the opposite extremes of those who would soon to be exalted compared to those who were as yet in an unsaved condition doesn’t mean that there weren’t spirits in the spirit world at that time who were only worthy of a terrestrial glory. In the final passages of Doctrine and Covenants 76, we’re informed that that great revelation, as we know have it, represents only the mere tip of the iceberg of the complete plan of salvation. I’m confident the same holds true for Doctrine and Covenants 138, and that it’s contents are meant to be enlightening and informative but nor definitive.

[The Nehor]

On 8/14/2025 at 7:42 PM, teddyaware said:

The text of Doctrine and Covenants 138 answers your first question with thoroughness and clarity. I’ll post the pertinent verses of Section 138 below and place in bold the portions that more directly help to answer your question. But I’ll at least explain that Section 138 reveals that there was a particular location in the spirit world where all those who had proved themselves worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory while in the flesh were gathered in anticipation of the glorious personal ministry of Jesus Christ to them. The fact that the Savior personally appeared only to these chosen souls after his death testifies that they were set apart from all the rest of the spirits of the departed dead due to the fact that they were fully worthy of taking part in the first resurrection and receiving the fullness of celestial glory.

In other words, after his death the Savior didn’t personally appear and minister to the spirits of all the departed dead because he actually appeared only to this select group of spirits who were fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus. You appear to be under the misimpression that after his death Christ personally ministered to spirits who were not worthy of receiving the fullness of celestial glory, but Doctrine and Covenants 138 testifies that he didn’t. He appeared and personally ministered only to those who had proved themselves worthy of obtaining the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom. 

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great (at the start of his vision, Joseph F Smith sees all the dead in every category of worthiness and spiritual preparedness).

12 And there were gathered together  IN ONE PLACE an innumerable company of the spirits of the just WHO HAD BEEN FAITHFUL IN THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS while they lived in mortality (President Smith now has his attention drawn to an exclusive gathering of elite spirits who, unlike all the other spirits, had proven themselves fully worthy to obtain the fullness of celestial glory);

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the.hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

Yes, but does it clarify if that was before or after he ministered to the Watchers that died in Noah’s flood?

[marineland]

On 8/24/2025 at 3:31 PM, teddyaware said:

In Doctrine and Covenants 76, a revelation given over 85 years earlier than Doctrine and Covenats 138, it’s revealed that there’s an intermediate state of salvation reserved for those spirits who do indeed possess testimonies of Jesus Christ but who are not valiant in their testimonies. Just because Doctrine and Covenants 138 is focused on the opposite extremes of those who would soon to be exalted compared to those who were as yet in an unsaved condition doesn’t mean that there weren’t spirits in the spirit world at that time who were only worthy of a terrestrial glory.

Based on what you said earlier on August 21 (Verse 12 of of Doctrine and Covenants 
Section 138 informs us that only those spirits who had proven themselves worthy to 
receive a glorious resurrection into the fullness of celestial glory were permitted 
to be gathered together “IN ONE PLACE,” where they would be ministered to personally 
by the Savior after his death on the cross),  this means Christ only visited those who
would be exalted to godhood, not to those who would inherit a telestial or terrestrial glory.

[teddyaware]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but does it clarify if that was before or after he ministered to the Watchers that died in Noah’s flood?

Moses chapter 7 makes it clear that all the enemies of God, by whatever names or titles they were then known, were destroyed in the great flood and thereafter banished to the spirit prison (hell) wherein they would suffer for their sins UNTIL the triumphant atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ mercifully opened the prison doors to allow missionaries to enter therein to preach the gospel and deliver from suffering all those who were willing to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and receive forgiveness.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison I have I prepared for them.

39 And that (Jesus Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment; (Moses 7)

and…

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent have their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

[teddyaware]

32 minutes ago, marineland said:

Based on what you said earlier on August 21 (Verse 12 of of Doctrine and Covenants 
Section 138 informs us that only those spirits who had proven themselves worthy to 
receive a glorious resurrection into the fullness of celestial glory were permitted 
to be gathered together “IN ONE PLACE,” where they would be ministered to personally 
by the Savior after his death on the cross),  this means Christ only visited those who
would be exalted to godhood, not to those who would inherit a telestial or terrestrial glory.

Correct: 

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent have their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Moses chapter 7 makes it clear that all the enemies of God, by whatever names or titles they were then known, were destroyed in the great flood and thereafter banished to the spirit prison (hell) wherein they would suffer for their sins UNTIL the triumphant atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ mercifully opened the prison doors to allow missionaries to enter therein to preach the gospel and deliver from suffering all those who were willing to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and receive forgiveness.

 

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison I have I prepared for them.

39 And that (Jesus Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment; (Moses 7)

and…

 

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent have their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

So the Christians closer to Jesus had no idea what Jesus descending to hell and preaching to those imprisoned there since the flood meant. Then suddenly about 2000 years later the truth is revealed. When they said Jesus preached to the Watchers they actually meant he preached to dead mortals but didn’t actually do it Himself. He was actually setting up a program for others to do the teaching.

I hate these kinds of explanations. They rely on prophets speaking in a kind of weird code so that those listening get it wrong but somehow people in the far future will understand it. It is “Left Behind”-esque reasoning where everything is only clear now and the prophets at the time were either unintentionally or deliberately being deceptive and leading the actual people listening to them to get it wrong. Imagine someone saying that everyone’s interpretation of President Nelson’s conference talk is wrong but don’t worry, in 200 years it will all be revealed that President Nelson deliberately hid his message in the talk and now it is shown that we all got it wrong but now it is understood.

It makes prophets and Jesus Himself into morons who are incredibly bad at communicating.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

hate these kinds of explanations. They rely on prophets speaking in a kind of weird code so that those listening get it wrong but somehow people in the far future will understand it. It is “Left Behind”-esque reasoning where everything is only clear now and the prophets at the time were either unintentionally or deliberately being deceptive and leading the actual people listening to them to get it wrong. Imagine someone saying that everyone’s interpretation of President Nelson’s conference talk is wrong but don’t worry, in 200 years it will all be revealed that President Nelson deliberately hid his message in the talk and now it is shown that we all got it wrong but now it is understood.

Isn’t there also the possibility that the prophets taught correctly and clearly and those who heard them understood correctly, but those who came later, either the scribes or less inspired teachers whose writings survived removed the original info and wrote in their own beliefs?  It’s pretty typical that anything not taught in the BoM that is different from modern revelation is explained that way in my experience while if the BoM seems to contradict later revelation it’s the line upon line explanation.

Or that the prophets didn’t actually teach anything on that particular, but beliefs held by others were put in their mouths for greater authority. 

Not saying either is what happened in each and every case of difference between teachings now and then, just saying it doesn’t have to be only that scenario you so strongly dislike.  I am not fond of that either.  D&C 19’s “endless” discussion has always troubled me some.

Quote

wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

I assume the “it” here is Section 19, “express” meaning direct and clear and not ambiguous and therefore Sec 19 is meant to work upon the hearts of the children of men.  Does anyone else here interpret it differently?  I had heard on occasion a version the misunderstanding was allowed to stand as the fear of forever punishment would soften/work upon men’s hearts more, that God is explaining why he allowed the misunderstanding…but that ignores what “express” means.  To me Sec 19 is not suggesting God is okay with previous misunderstandings.

I am very glad to see the Elder McConkie quote claim “endless damnation” applies to everyone not exalted is not in anything but the archived, out of date D&C manual***, so hopefully that is a idea that will fade away**** as I think it is more confusing than helpful as people forget he equates “damnation” with eternal limitations, not punishment.  Though he also confuses the issue because he links damnation with disobedience and lack of repentance and exaltation with obedience as if there are only two states of being after judgment.  Since everyone has been purified of sin so as to be able to receive even a smaller portion of God’s glory in the Telestial Kingdom, I think it inaccurate to view the Telestial and definitely the Terrestrial inhabitants as disobedient.  Maybe it’s accurate to think of Telestial as lacking in repentance since they choose to suffer for their sins to be purified rather than accepting God’s grace, but those in the Terrestrial and those in the nonexaltation state initially, possibly forever in the Celestial Kingdoms have repented surely.

***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-19-the-gift-of-repentance?lang=eng

****not saying the concept ‘the opposite of exaltation is damnation’ (rather than ‘the opposite of salvation is damnation’; sometimes leaders and others mix the two ideas even, which leads to even more confusion imo) isn’t taught by some church leaders, just that it is no longer in the manuals, so perhaps it’s intentionally not being perpetuated in our curriculum.

Edited August 26, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

In searching for other members’ views on that part of Sec 19 (since there is very little on the Church’s website), I came across this, which I quite like:

https://luthert.web.illinois.edu/blog/posts/235.html
 

Quote

One of the things I find over and over again when I teach is that many questions I cannot possibly answer in full because the questioner doesn’t understand the background in which the question needs to be understood. We’ve all seen this in microcosm; most of the times I hear questions like “‍why are you angry‍” the answer I hear is “‍I’m not angry‍”—or, in other words, “‍wrong question. You misinterpret my actions.‍” When you ask a question that assumes a falsehood it’s called a “‍loaded question‍”; when you do it accidentally, it’s just ordinary poor communication.

Imagine, if you can, what it must be like for God. How many of the questions we ask Him even make sense? How hard it must be to say anything that isn’t misinterpreted! Hell isn’t “‍beating with a few stripes‍” nor is it “‍torment with no end‍”. What it is then? It’s “‍suffering [that] caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—‍” and you expect me to be able to describe it to you? It’s worse than the worst thing you can possibly imagine, and not much like that worst imagining either.

As I mature, I become more and more respectful of the quiet type of wisdom. While I myself find it very difficult to avoid at least attempting to answer even when I know no answer will convey the correct understanding, I have growing respect for those who chose their words carefully to be both literally true and “‍more express, that it might work upon the heart.‍” I wonder if I will ever attain that level of practical wisdom.

The bolded part made me think.

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Not saying either is what happened in each and every case of difference between teachings now and then, just saying it doesn’t have to be only that scenario you so strongly dislike.  I am not fond of that either.  D&C 19’s “endless” discussion has always troubled me some.

Doctrine and Covenant 19’s “endless punishment” is a simple concept that’s easy to grasp when it’s understood within the illumination provided by 2 Nephi 9 and the further light and knowledge revealed in Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138. This is the concept: God’s punishment for sin is indeed endless and never will come to an end UNTIL the individual who’s experiencing that endless punishment for sin accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and repents of his sins.

The fate of the sons of perdition provides proof positive that God’s endless punishment for sin really is endless, for the sons of perdition’s suffering for sin never comes to an end, worlds without end. Why? Because they utterly refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and repent of their sins. Even worse, theirs is not merely an indifferent neglect of the salvation graciously and merciful offered to them by Jesus Christ, but an implacable and unquenchable hatred of God and Christ. As a consequence, for them there actually is no forgiveness nor cessation of suffering for sin because they don’t want to be forgiven, and, as we all know, “God will force no man to heaven” (In this case, heaven means the inheritance of a mansion in any of the three heavenly kingdoms of glory).

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is nor forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

So the doctrine of endless punishment is now rendered clear: God’s punishment for sin never does and never will come to an end unless each spirit son and daughter of the Father accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and sincerely repents of their sins. Doctrine and Covenants 76 reveals that the reason why the suffering for sin of the eventual inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will come to an end isn’t because they’ve suffered enough to atone for their own sins (as if man can become his own Savior!), but because the time will come when these will be humbled to the dust by their suffering and bow the knee to God the Father and freely confess unto him that Jesus Christ is their Lord, Savior and Deliverer from hell.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

And what specifically will these confess? The church’s footnote to verse 110 takes us to the following stirring testimony of the Apostle Paul… 

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

 

 

Edited August 27, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenant 19’s “endless punishment” is a simple concept that’s easy to grasp when it’s understood within the illumination provided by 2 Nephi 9 and the further light and knowledge revealed in Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138. This is the concept: God’s punishment for sin is indeed endless and never will come to an end UNTIL the individual who’s experiencing that endless punishment for sin accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and repents of his sins.

This is not the part of the discussion I have an issue with. 

The problematic issue for me is why God allowed the false teaching of forever punishment after death with no chance release for whatever reason to dominate much of Christian belief for so long that Hell and who gets consigned there became the focus of way too many good Christians and such a focus led quite a few to some twisted views of God.

Edited August 27, 2025 by Calm

[manol]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

The problematic issue for me is why God allowed the false teaching of forever punishment after death with no chance release for whatever reason to dominate much of Christian belief for so long that Hell and who gets consigned there became the focus of way too many good Christians and such a focus led quite a few to some twisted views of God.

Personally I do not think the false teaching of "forever punishment after death with no chance [of] release for whatever reason" ever came from God.  I don't know what the original teachings were that got so corrupted by fearful ideas.  Unfortunately the concept of "forever punishment" is pretty much hard-wired into Christian belief systems.   Imo it is extremely fortunate that the Latter-day Saints have D&C 19:6-12, which gives them permission to believe something that does not crush their souls, albeit at the expense of possibly having to wrestle with some new issues. 

I'm not convinced D&C 19:6-12 is the last word on the subject, but at least it's evidence that God is not the eternally vengeful being most of Christianity has made him out to be. 

Edited August 28, 2025 by manol

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, manol said:

Personally I do not think the false teaching of "forever punishment after death with no chance release for whatever reason" ever came from God.  I don't know what the original teachings were that got so corrupted by fearful ideas.  Unfortunately the concept of "forever punishment" is pretty much hard-wired into Christian belief systems.   Imo it is extremely fortunate that the Latter-day Saints have D&C 19:6-12, which gives them permission to believe something that does not crush their souls, albeit at the expense of possibly having to wrestle with some new issues. 

I'm not convinced D&C 19:6-12 is the last word on the subject, but at least it's evidence that God is not the eternally vengeful being most of Christianity has made him out to be. 

The Nephites seemed to believe it for their entire history without God correcting it. Also God seems to indicate in the D&C that He allowed this misinterpretation to stand in order to ‘scare people straight’.

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Also God seems to indicate in the D&C that He allowed this misinterpretation to stand in order to ‘scare people straight’.

Please point to where you see this because I might disagree on this with you.

[manol]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Nephites seemed to believe it for their entire history without God correcting it.

It appears that way to me too.  Imo in some ways the Book of Mormon transcends traditional Christianity, and in some ways it doesn't.  

Does the paradigm which best preserves the religion's narrative do so at the expense of pushing that peace which surpasses all understanding out of reach, for all practical purposes?  If so, then maybe that's not actually the best paradigm. 

Perhaps when we claim a God that is beneficent and loving, our experience of the Divine is such.  And perhaps when we claim an untrustworthy and/or vengeful God, our experience of the Divine is such. 

 

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also God seems to indicate in the D&C that He allowed this misinterpretation to stand in order to ‘scare people straight’.

So it appears to me as well.   One possibility is that, instead of tossing however many thousands of years of religious thought on the subject completely out the window (and correspondingly freaking everyone out), God and/or Joseph Smith decided to merely introduce the idea that God is not really in the punishment business as deeply as the preponderance of scriptural evidence suggests.  

I see D&C 19:6-12 as a higher rung on the ladder than what previous religions taught. And perhaps reaching even higher, for that next higher rung, is up to us as individuals, rather than up to the institution to do it for its members.  And in order to climb to that next higher rung, we will have to let go of the one we've been clenching.  Especially if it no longer serves us well. 

I'm not suggesting that you to leave your religion.  But I am suggesting you consider no longer valuing whatever ideas it has instilled in you that prevent you from loving God completely and without reservation, and from loving your neighbor as if your neighbor were yourself.  Imo that (in concert with Alma Chapter 32 and Moroni Chapter 7) constitutes the real litmus test of any doctrine or teaching, rather than the internal consistency of the narrative. 

Edited August 28, 2025 by manol

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Please point to where you see this because I might disagree on this with you.

Quote

 

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailingand gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment⁠.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation⁠; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

 

I can’t come up with a better explanation for verse 7.

I admit I find verse 5 kind of funny right before that.

”I will NEVER revoke the judgements.”

”I am however willing however to exaggerate them so they sound worse than they are in a bit of rhetorical trickery to work on your hearts for my greater glory. For I am a God of Truth and cannot lie.”

It is basically an endorsement of deception for someone else’s good as long as what you say isn’t technically a lie but just phrased in a way to lead all listeners to an incorrect conclusion.

What other scriptures get the same treatment?

When it promises that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes does it really mean that they will actually suffer forever but that God will soak them up with a rag? When God promises that we will inherit the blessings of Abraham does that mean we will have to sacrifice our own children forever in perpetuity?

[marineland]

On 8/26/2025 at 10:17 AM, teddyaware said:

 

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

 

Are those who rejected the prophets during their probationary period added
to the sons of perdition as per Alma 12:24; 42:4,10, 13; 2 Nephi 2:21?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Are those who rejected the prophets during their probationary period added
to the sons of perdition as per Alma 12:24; 42:4,10, 13; 2 Nephi 2:21?

Yes… those who utterly reject the inspired testimonies of the Lord’s prophets that Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin is the only way to be forgiven for their sins and be saved, in one of the three heavenly kingdoms of glory, will become sons of perdition. This is why God, in his infinite love and mercy, sends authorized prophets to the spirits prison who rejected the prophets that were sent to them while they were in the flesh on earth, to the end that they might yet be forgiven and saved because he loves them eternally, and is not at all disposed to easily give up on any of his spirit children in spite of their previously hardened hearts and rebellion.That is, unless and until they demonstrate that they’ve deliberately and irrevocably placed themselves beyond God’s grace and mercy, while simultaneously having a full and complete knowledge of the consequences of their choice. This is how the true God of love administers his wonderful and all-encompassing plan of salvation.

By the way, why don’t you intensively read and ponder the whole of Doctrine and Covenants 138 with an open mind and the perhaps all the answers you’re seeking will be presented to your heart and mind in crystal clear clarity?

But first this…

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles shall be cut off from among the people (in other words, they will be wholly cast out of the Father’s kingdoms of heavenly glory on the day of final judgement and become sons of perdition); (Doctrine and Covenants 1)

and…

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (Doctrine and Covenants 1)

Finally, verse 31 of Doctrine and Covenants 138 makes it perfectly clear that the rebellious who rejected the prophets while they sojourned on the earth in the flesh are retaught the gospel in the spirit world in the hope that they will finally soften their hearts (as a consequence of having had to bear the miserable burden of their own sins while in the spirit prison) will, with gratitude, eventually accept Jesus Christ as their atoning Lord and Savior:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptance day of the Lord (“the acceptable day of the Lord” means the Lord is still extending his arm of mercy to the spirits in prison) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of have their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

A multiple choice question for you:

Why would do you think the Lord wants the gospel to be preached to the spirits of those who once rejected the prophet’s testimonies of Christ while they were in the flesh?

1) Is it because he wants to rub their faces in the sad reality that they “blew it” and they can never be saved?

2) Or is it because he has an infinite and eternal love for them, and, in spite of their former rebellion, he still fervently hopes they will accept him in faith so that he can save them?

Edited August 28, 2025 by teddyaware